Eurostar running trains with empty seats

[Horizon22]

For non EU passengers the boarder guard has to find the most recent Schengen tourist entry and exit stamp and check they didn’t overstay. That takes longer than 2.5 seconds! More like 10. And also ask a couple of questions and stamp it. Though I guess that only needs to happen for half the passengers, the EU ones taking more like 2 seconds. And then if a visa national turns up it can easily add a few minutes delay. It will be much faster once the EU entry-exit system and ETIAS have both gone live.

It is interesting - I've been through both sides several times with my EU partner at both Gare Du Nord and St Pancras. Only on one occasion were they notably faster than my time through and that wasn't at St Pancras. The worst one I had was with the ferry at Ouisterham which took ages.

I can't see the queues have been overlong and the 90 minutes is very much to cover their own backs - I've turned up with 60 minutes before and had no issues.

 

[Peterthegreat]

And would it have been "continental" loading gauge all the way?

Er no.......

 

[AdamWW]

Er no.......

Quite.

So having it the main station with St Pancras as an extra one would have been quite a restriction on rolling stock. (And presumably also having to maintain 3rd rail capability).

 

[Trainbike46]

I guess they could have limited the e320s to St Pancras and send e300s to Waterloo, but it would have been operationally challenging to say the least, and expensive

Plus, SWR couldn't have taken the extra space, which they definitely needed in 2019

 

[zwk500]

Interesting. How was Waterloo to have been connected to HS1?

Via Fawkham Jn, one presumes.

I guess they could have limited the e320s to St Pancras and send e300s to Waterloo, but it would have been operationally challenging to say the least, and expensive

2 big reasons: Operating a 2nd terminal would have been very expensive (Especially, and importantly, one which LCR could not raise substantial revenue from due to Railtrack/Network Rail ownership of the domestic side. And the much poorer utilisation of stock trundling through the South London suburban services. Other aspects like the removal of third rail shoes (simplifying maintenance) would have also helped in that regard.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Quite.

So having it the main station with St Pancras as an extra one would have been quite a restriction on rolling stock. (And presumably also having to maintain 3rd rail capability).

Correct. And of course once the original stock had become life expired it would have required replacing with a small fleet of very expensive, bespoke trains.

 

[zwk500]

Correct. And of course once the original stock had become life expired it would have required replacing with a small fleet of very expensive, bespoke trains.

I'd like to see some numbers on how badly the UK loading gauge impacts the price of a train that would already be non-standard, with 400m train sets, Chunnel fire regs, 3/4/5 country's signalling and electrification systems, etc.

 

[mike57]

2 big reasons:

I would add a 3rd, connectivity. Onward journeys to places outside London are far simpler from St Pancras for probably 75% of the the non London population, and for people within the London area St Pancras is probably a lot easier for a majority.

Waterloo always struck me as a bodge which was fine until HS1 was built. In terms of the major mainline London termini it always feels like it is the worst connected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Waterloo always struck me as a bodge which was fine until HS1 was built. In terms of the major mainline London termini it always feels like it is the worst connected.

It's good for the southern part of the City. But so's St Pancras, it's a very quick connection via Thameslink.

I suspect Eurostar just went there because it had space, though; Victoria would have been the natural option, but there's no space around it for building the terminal and probably a lack of track capacity too.

 

[AdamWW]

I'd like to see some numbers on how badly the UK loading gauge impacts the price of a train that would already be non-standard, with 400m train sets, Chunnel fire regs, 3/4/5 country's signalling and electrification systems, etc.

Trains covering multiple electrification and signalling systems are pretty common these days. And now that it's HS1 all the way to St Pancras I don't think the UK adds any requirements over and above the other countries that Eurostar operate to. Different when they had to operate over conventional third rail lines and handle AWS/TPWS of course.

 

[zwk500]

Trains covering multiple electrification and signalling systems are pretty common these days. And now that it's HS1 all the way to St Pancras I don't think the UK adds any requirements over and above the other countries that Eurostar operate to. Different when they had to operate over conventional third rail lines and handle AWS/TPWS of course.

The point was how much cost does specifically shrinking trains down to W6 actually cost as a proportion of the whole.

 

[Trainbike46]

The point was how much cost does specifically shrinking trains down to W6 actually cost as a proportion of the whole.

Having to use an enitrely different (new) body shape has got to be expensive.

And also, the e320s are superior trains from a passenger perspective, precisely because they are larger. Being stuck with separate smaller loading gauge trains indefinitely wouldn't be ideal

 

[D6130]

the e320s are superior trains from a passenger perspective,

That's a matter of opinion. The 374s might be larger overall, but the high seats and cramped layout in standard class make them feel more claustrophobic than the refurbished 373s....and they ride very roughly in comparison with their articulated predecessors. They do however have much better and less claustrophobic toilets.

 

[Trainbike46]

That's a matter of opinion. The 374s might be larger overall, but the high seats and cramped layout in standard class make them feel more claustrophobic than the refurbished 373s....and they ride very roughly in comparison with their articulated predecessors.

While that is a fair statement, all other things being equal the larger loading gauge will give more spacious trains

 

[zwk500]

Having to use an enitrely different (new) body shape has got to be expensive.

But can somebody put a number on that? I ask because the e320s cost Eurostar EUR60,000,000 per set (for 10 ordered) but the Class 407 cost DB EUR33.3m for their order of 15 sets, despite them being nearly the same train. Both are Velaro platform, specced for operation in UK, FR, DE, BE, NL. The only difference is the Eurostar units are 400m (2x200m half-sets) and the DB units are 200m sets. So there's something else driving the cost up because the e320s aren't W6 compliant.

And also, the e320s are superior trains from a passenger perspective, precisely because they are larger. Being stuck with separate smaller loading gauge trains indefinitely wouldn't be ideal

I find the e320s very comfortable seats but the ride is not very smooth.

 

[Trainbike46]

But can somebody put a number on that?

Not me, unfortunately

I ask because the e320s cost Eurostar EUR60,000,000 per set (for 10 ordered) but the Class 407 cost DB EUR33.3m for their order of 15 sets, despite them being nearly the same train. Both are Velaro platform, specced for operation in UK, FR, DE, BE, NL. The only difference is the Eurostar units are 400m (2x200m half-sets) and the DB units are 200m sets. So there's something else driving the cost up because the e320s aren't W6 compliant.

a 400m set for £60 million is about the same price per coach as a 200m set for €33.3 million, no?

 

[AdamWW]

The point was how much cost does specifically shrinking trains down to W6 actually cost as a proportion of the whole.

It was but you were comparing the loading gauge change to other non-standard aspects of the train, and I would contend that some of the things you quoted aren't non-standard.

While that is a fair statement, all other things being equal the larger loading gauge will give more spacious trains

Unfortunately all things aren't equal (I prefer the 373's).

 

[zwk500]

Not me, unfortunately

a 400m set for £60 million is about the same price per coach as a 200m set for €33.3 million, no?

I suppose yes, I'd forgotten that it was effectively 20 sets, just minus one cab each, so it'd be EUR30m each per Velaro, or in other words the same price.

Now I'll have to trawl back and try and compare the Reseau, PBA and 373s....

 

[AdamWW]

I suppose yes, I'd forgotten that it was effectively 20 sets, just minus one cab each, so it'd be EUR30m each per Velaro, or in other words the same price.

Now I'll have to trawl back and try and compare the Reseau, PBA and 373s....

I believe that the requirements for the channel tunnel have been relaxed since the 373's were built so any difference for the 373's might be more than just the loading gauge difference. And of course unlike the 374's, the 373's had to cope with UK (3rd rail) electrification and signalling systems.

I think however we may have come adrift a little from the original topic.

 

[zwk500]

I believe that the requirements for the channel tunnel have been relaxed since the 373's were built so any difference for the 373's might be more than just the loading gauge difference. And of course unlike the 374's, the 373's had to cope with UK (3rd rail) electrification and signalling systems.

Indeed.

I think however we may have come adrift a little from the original topic.

Agreed. Consider wrist slapped!

 

[mike57]

And what is the time penalty for Waterloo, its 25 miles across south London to Waterloo or a similar distance (or slightly shorter even at guess) to St Pancras from where HS1 splits. Optimistically you wont average more than 60mph across south London, probably less so my guess would be 30 mins after leaving HS1 to get to Waterloo, where as I suspect St Pancras would be 15mins maybe less. Also there is the disruption potential when trains are threaded across south London as opposed to using the dedicated line. Once St Pancras was up and running Waterloo made no sense.

The opportunity that was missed was when the Kings Cross area was redeveloped not to reserve more land for rail use. HS2 could then have terminated there, and room for expansions could have been allowed. This would in turn allow more room for Eurostar if it was found to be needed.

 

[zwk500]

And what is the time penalty for Waterloo, its 25 miles across south London to Waterloo or a similar distance (or slightly shorter even at guess) to St Pancras from where HS1 splits. Optimistically you wont average more than 60mph across south London, probably less so my guess would be 30 mins after leaving HS1 to get to Waterloo, where as I suspect St Pancras would be 15mins maybe less. Also there is the disruption potential when trains are threaded across south London as opposed to using the dedicated line. Once St Pancras was up and running Waterloo made no sense.

The opportunity that was missed was when the Kings Cross area was redeveloped not to reserve more land for rail use. HS2 could then have terminated there, and room for expansions could have been allowed. This would in turn allow more room for Eurostar if it was found to be needed.

According to Wikipedia, fastest journey using the Fawkham Jn link was 2h35 to Paris. Fastest journey from St Pancras to Paris is 2h15, so a 20 minute difference. Given Eurostars can have 30 minute turnrounds at St P, an extra 40 minute journey time will make a big hit in stock utilisation.

 

[paul1609]

Interesting. How was Waterloo to have been connected to HS1?

The same way as it was from 2003 until 2007 before phase 2 of HS1 and St Pancras opened. From Southfleet Junction to Fawkenham Junction and then the classic lines to Waterloo International. Journeytime was only reduced by around 20 mins by going to St Pancras.
if you didn't intend to use Waterloo International you wouldn't have built Southfleet Junction as a high speed flying junction-now quietly rusting away like so much Tunnel Infrastructure in Kent.

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[Bald Rick]

Because up until 3 years before it opened St Pancras was only going to be for Eurostar a second terminal in the Northern Suburbs for people connecting off the East Coast and midland Mainline. Waterloo International within stones throw of the Thames and in sight of of Big ben would have remained the main tourist draw.

I would add a 3rd, connectivity. Onward journeys to places outside London are far simpler from St Pancras for probably 75% of the the non London population, and for people within the London area St Pancras is probably a lot easier for a majority.

Indeed. Eurostar’s post opening of CTRL phase 2 (Ebbsfleet to St Pancras) statistics were stark - use of Eurostar increased from all regions of the country, in some cases very, very significantly (midlands and north, where the quicker connections to St P were). The only area where use didn’t increase was Surrey and Hampshire - and in this case use was flat.

So the move encouraged lots of new custom, but didn’t put off any existing. An outstanding commercial success, I’d say.

if you didn't intend to use Waterloo International you wouldn't have built Southfleet Junction as a high speed flying junction-now quietly rusting away like so much Tunnel Infrastructure in Kent.

Not so. It was built so that the Phase 2 could be tied in without significant disruption to traffic on Phase 1. Maintaining a route to Waterloo was an option, but exoected to be for a very limited service at best. Source: the project Sponsor!

 

[paul1609]

Indeed. Eurostar’s post opening of CTRL phase 2 (Ebbsfleet to St Pancras) statistics were stark - use of Eurostar increased from all regions of the country, in some cases very, very significantly (midlands and north, where the quicker connections to St P were). The only area where use didn’t increase was Surrey and Hampshire - and in this case use was flat.

So the move encouraged lots of new custom, but didn’t put off any existing. An outstanding commercial success, I’d say.

I think that's debatable in the least if the connectivity and business available at Kings Cross/ St Pancras is so good:
a) Why is the ORR combined footfall of the combined stations (KX/SP exc Eurostar) still lower than Waterloo?
b) Did the NAO consider that HS1 represented poor value for money as it had attracted less than 2/3 rds of the anticipated passenger numbers?
c) Eurostar withdrew through tickets from the regions because the low number of tickets sold didn't justify a bespoke ticketing system.
I don't think that anybody outside of the rail industry would call it an outstanding commercial success.

 

[zwk500]

I don't think that anybody outside of the rail industry would call it an outstanding commercial success.

Anybody outside the rail industry will judge Eurostar on one number: Profit. And pre-covid that number was healthy.

 

[Bikeman78]

An e320 takes about 900 people, of which 220 are Standard Premier or Business, so let's discount those as they have a separate queue. Ticket gates close 30 minutes before departure, so if you advertised 60 minutes before departure you'd need 680 people through in 30 minutes, or 23 passenger per minute, which is about 2.5 seconds per passenger. It's theoretically possible with 5 e-gates and 2 desks (i.e. Half the E* check in, because the other half will be checking in passengers for a different train) IF, and this is a big if, there are absolutely no technical problems or people who need to be asked additional questions.

From my observations, the ticket gates were not closing 30 minutes ahead of departure. There were a lot of people behind me in the queue for my train. There were people for the Disney train at passport control only 10 minutes before that train was scheduled to depart. I turned up around 0935 for the 1104. Had I been travelling on the 1022 or 1031 I could have joined the back of the train specific queue straight away. Instead I had to queue an extra half an hour in the holding queue for later departures. I'd be interested to know what time the first people for the 1104 started going through the ticket gates.

 

[zwk500]

From my observations, the ticket gates were not closing 30 minutes ahead of departure. There were a lot of people behind me in the queue for my train. There were people for the Disney train at passport control only 10 minutes before that train was scheduled to depart. I turned up around 0935 for the 1104. Had I been travelling on the 1022 or 1031 I could have joined the back of the train specific queue straight away. Instead I had to queue an extra half an hour in the holding queue for later departures. I'd be interested to know what time the first people for the 1104 started going through the ticket gates.

30 mins is what they advise on the website. Of course, on the day they may hold the gates for longer depending on the circumstances. In my experience there are usually 2 trains being let through the ticket gates at any time, utilising the division of the security area by the escalators. Sometimes they have a third stacking up in another queue behind the 'open' train in the departures area but ahead of the holding queue in the Arcade. Eurostar are also quite good at pulling people out of the queue if their train is boarding.
I usually turn up approximately 1h before departure, and my train is open for tickets and security at that time.

 

[30907]

I think that's debatable in the least if the connectivity and business available at Kings Cross/ St Pancras is so good:
a) Why is the ORR combined footfall of the combined stations (KX/SP exc Eurostar) still lower than Waterloo?

Something to do with the vast numbers of commuters using Waterloo - which is not a precise match to the potential numbers/revenue for international travel.
And you probably ought to take Euston into account.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Something to do with the vast numbers of commuters using Waterloo - which is not a precise match to the potential numbers/revenue for international travel.
And you probably ought to take Euston into account.

And ORR figures do not include Eurostar anyway.

Eurostar passengers in 2006 (last full year of Waterloo) were 7.85 million. By 2019 (last full year before Covid) numbers had risen to 11.1 million. An increase of almost 40%.