brad465
Established Member
If you want to see how bad this has got, Piers Morgan is showing solidarity with Lineker, who on 99.9% of issues hate each other:
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Any thoughts on Gary Lineker’s tweets?
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There’s being correct and there’s being useful. You could also say that efforts to increase the birth rate are “like Nazi Germany” or our aspiration to increase domestic industrial production “similar to what the Nazis wanted”. Neither are a useful comparison.
birchesgreen
Established Member
The saddest thing for me is that the BBC's response is not a surprise but quite predictable.
He not's comparing actions though - he's not saying this policy is like something the nazi's did, he's saying the language being used to justify it is similar to that which gave rise to the Nazi party - which it absolutely is - and it is something that we should educate ourselves to be aware of. This whole thing has only blown up because people keep thinking he's comparing the policy, which agreed, would be a poor comparison - but he's not.
Exactly.
Busaholic
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So, let's get this straight - a tweet inviting comparison between the language used by a German government in the 1930s and certain politicians either in the current UK government or part of the governing party has caused outrage, some of which may be genuine, in certain circles. The outrage appears to be generated by a well-known football commentator who happens to appear on BBC TV shows, although he is not a member of their staff. Said commentator was venting his own views, but the expression of those views is somehow considered inappropriate, or 'out of order' by somebody of such a high profile by various unbiased people such as Suella Braverman, Daily Mail journalists, GB News and now, seemingly, Tim Davie the BBC Director-General and former Conservative Party politician.
I invite anyone to consider the irony of attempting to disprove the allegation of similarity to an oppressive and, ultimately, totalitarian regime by suppressing the right of an individual to air those views by, in effect, depriving them of their job.
I invite anyone to consider the irony of attempting to disprove the allegation of similarity to an oppressive and, ultimately, totalitarian regime by suppressing the right of an individual to air those views by, in effect, depriving them of their job.
No, it’s because it’s dull to compare everything to the Nazis. It’s the only frame of reference this country has to anything which deviates from what the commentariat think “normal politics” is. Anyone who compares anything a modern if very misguided multi-ethnic democracy does it says with Hitler merely illustrates their own ignorance, lack of breadth of knowledge, and lack of imagination. There are plenty of better modern comparators like Hungary.
This is as useless and vacuous as people who thought Trump was a fascist, yet who resisted the acid fascist test of fusing state, military and industry under the excuse of the covid emergency. What if Trump was really bad but a new and different thing to a fascist?
Imagine it you will that a century later than fascism’s nascency, that things can be politically bad and undesirable but actually aren’t like fascism or Nazism.
So unimaginative!
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Perhaps - but hardly worth a politically motovated suspension!
Odd you dont seem to be worried about that
Indeed. So many to choose from. Pol Pot, Herr Honecker, The Ayatolah, Chairman Mau, General Franco. They all have their nuances !
I’m not really worried about a football presenter being suspended for (allegedly) breaching the BBC’s long standing impartiality guidelines; it’s obviously silly but I don’t watch the programme anyway. The BBC are quite keen for it to be a big story but it’s really not a very important event at all.
They’ll capitulate tomorrow morning and the programme will go ahead as planned anyway.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
It isnt the nature of the programme or presenter that is the issue.
The government have, via thier placemen, suspended someone from the national (and allegedly impartial) broadcaster for expressing a view about policy they disagree with. This was a view expressed in a personel capacity outside the bbc
We all know a pro tory line would cause no upset. Lord Sugar shows that. It is corrupt.
They have also pulled a David Attenbrough doco becuase it might upset tory simpletons on climate change.
Who is next.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Most right thinking people want the boat situation stopped by offering safe, legal channels for genuine refugees to enter the UK, and prompt processing of such applications.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
And prompt removal of those who fail the process.
We all know the government arent serious about sorting this issue out. They need the distraction and the base firing this stuff supplies.
I sort of agree the BBC’s impartiality rules are far too strict for non-political employees (like sports presenters), but he does appear to have contravened them. He’s paid massively above his market worth and adds relatively little value which is unique to him. I find it hard to feel too sorry for him and I’m not massively bothered about the story.
Make no mistake I strongly disagree with government policy and their language around the small boat problem, but I’m not sure I’d be wanting to rally around Lineker to expend political capital on the issue.
Or even a returns agreement! Heaven forbid we ever re-enter one.
It says something that the Tories can't even cope with criticism about their policies on the British countryside.
43096
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The impartiality guidelines that mean the Chairman is OK to be loan arranger to the Prime Minister. The impartiality guidelines that went missing during the pandemic and there was no challenge on the policy groupthink, only parroting of Government policy. But that's OK, because it's the Tories. The spineless fools in the BBC have caved in when they should be telling the right wing media and politicians where to go.
It will be interesting how much longer shows such as Have I Got News For You will last. That show has a lot of criticism for the government and probably a lot more controversial than Lineker’s Tweets. The BBC have already axed Mock the Week.
HIGNFY’s biggest problem is that it isn’t funny and hasn’t been for about 15 years. Bring back Angus!
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I get you dont like Lineker but you seem to be, perhaps willfully, missing the wider implications of this story.
Without using the connection to the nazi regieme you object to this action is clearly redolent of any number of tin pot roght wing authorotarian regieme around the world. Pick one at random and i bet press censorship is in their toolbox!
This is another step along an authoritarian road.
I dont feel sorry for lineker but i do worry about what this means for press freedom, accuracy and impartiality in our public life.
I used to love it.
I stopped watching it because even satire became depressing. Current affairs just turns me off now.
Armando Iannucci put's it better than I can, speaking to the BBC
"It's lazy to say he was comparing the policy to the Nazis. He wasn't, he was comparing the language and the climate to certain aspects of what was going on in the 1930s."
We should not be afraid to talk about what lead to the rise of the Nazi party - even if we aren't worried that the current government are secretly trying to implement Nazi policies, we should be calling them out when they start to use the same language and techniques to justify things. Lineker is far from the only person to have made comparisons between the current populist governments in the UK, US, Russia and, yes, Hungary and the rise of populism and fascism that ended up with the formation of the Nazi party - and I very much doubt he will be the last.
Mock the Week ended because it became stale and stopped bringing in a decent audience. HIGNFY still brings in a sizable audience so is safe (for now).
Wilts Wanderer
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The common sense test about whether the BBCs actions are fair & impartial or not, is to consider whether, if Gary Lineker had tweeted something along the lines of
“What an excellent government policy, truly in the spirit of British values and national tradition. Go Suella.”
Do you think he would have been censured by the corporation in the same way for being impartial? No, I thought not. It’s one rule for right wing views and another for the left. And in this case, most likely due to political pressure from the BBC Chairman’s political overlords in the Tory party.
“What an excellent government policy, truly in the spirit of British values and national tradition. Go Suella.”
Do you think he would have been censured by the corporation in the same way for being impartial? No, I thought not. It’s one rule for right wing views and another for the left. And in this case, most likely due to political pressure from the BBC Chairman’s political overlords in the Tory party.
Presenters have been suspended or censured by the BBC before for the whole of my adult life, regardless of government. It isn’t anything new regardless of how cringeworthy this latest instalment is.
Tomorrow the programme will go ahead as planned and nobody will remember this incident next year.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
This is different though in my mind. This isnt someone swearing on air or getting caught up in kinky sex games.
I am sure it Is just a coincidence that the same BBC whose chairman gave the Conservatives £400,000 before helping to arrange an £800,000 loan for Boris Johnson suspended someone for slagging of said tories!
THAT is why it is different!
As far as I am concerned Gary Lineker is entitled to express his opinion on his personal Twitter account, that is nowt to do with the BBC nor does it express an opinion on behalf of the BBC either. The only people who think that are those in the BBC and Government. As for impartiality the BBC lost that a long time ago as far as I am concerned. In the meantime, we have now Government finding £500 million from an empty bank account to give to the French, who no doubt laughing all the way to the bank! I'm really sorry, but I have had enough of this Government, I wish they 'go away'!
Kaveh Solekhol, a sports journalist on Sky Sports News, has summed it up perfectly this evening - https://twitter.com/lallylangford/status/1634279868606173194?s=46&t=Kw8ic5hZeXFp0A3Ow9QNqA
Of course the migrant crisis getting turned into a discussion about it a footballer turned television presenter is healthy and normal (!).
Not a dig at you but we do have a really screwed political culture.
43096
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How about the regime of the current incumbent of the Kremlin, to pick an example not entirely at random.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I agree! It is deflection. It is once again showing the government are nor serious about the issue.
However there is, imo, a worrying undercurrent to this suspension that really doesnt sit well with me.
Ps ir appears there will be no studio part of motd tomorrow!
Some people only hold certain positions because they are politically convenient, and eventually show their hypocrisy (just look at how Labour criticise things the Tories do when they are in oppositon, only to do the same things themselves when in government - and vice versa. And even more the case for Republicans/Democrats in the US).
Not all 'free speech warriors' are hypocrites though. I think I'm a 'free speech warrior' and I think Lineker should be perfectly entitled to express his personal opinion, and as it hardly affects his competence (or otherwise) to discuss football on a football show, I don't see what the BBC are trying to achieve here.
Personally I don't see a great deal wrong with what the government is proposing here, and I don't think they are using particularly dehumanising or othering language (certainly not when compared with the language and 'other'ing techniques used against the unvaccinated at the height of covid hysteria, which I don't recall Lineker pointing out at the time - but I digress).
But Lineker is entitled to hold and express the opinion he does, and if he believes it is similar to the techniques the Nazis used I don't see any issue with pointing that out. We should be debating it and if he's wrong, explaining why. Often comparing to the Nazis is intellectually lazy, but equally we should be in a situation where we can learn from what the Nazis did and never do it again, so I don't agree that we should never be doing it. Pointing out parallels and similarities from history is a very useful thing to do.
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