Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[zwk500]

I would have thought the ECML favourite for testing as they are being built at Newton Aycliffe... if paths could be found.

Hence why the WCML tends to win out - lots of space on the Trent Valley and from Stafford to Crewe. Pinch points at Rugby, Colwich and Stafford itself can be pathed out.

 

[Meerkat]

Hence why the WCML tends to win out - lots of space on the Trent Valley and from Stafford to Crewe. Pinch points at Rugby, Colwich and Stafford itself can be pathed out.

Presumably those bits being mainly 4 track makes it less risky than a test train sitting down on the ECML too.

 

[zwk500]

Presumably those bits being mainly 4 track makes it less risky than a test train sitting down on the ECML too.

yes, although sitting down on the Trent Valley slows will be problematic if it did it in the wrong area and blocked a station or two off. WCML also has lots of places to turn around and sit about.

 

[Maddog83]

Not even got engines in it yet. Its going to be months till you even see it off depot. EMR will not see one until early next year if they are lucky.

 

[AndrewJM70]

I don’t understand why they didn’t order fewer sets but made them 8-car. Surely the fact there are 33% fewer sets to staff, lease and maintain would be considerable.

 

[800001]

Not even got engines in it yet. It’s going to be months till you even see it off depot. EMR will not see one until early next year if they are lucky.

What hasn’t got an engine in? 810001 at Aycliffe?

 

[JonathanH]

I don’t understand why they didn’t order fewer sets but made them 8-car. Surely the fact there are 33% fewer sets to staff, lease and maintain would be considerable.

The operational model is that pairs of fives offer greater flexibility, and allow the busiest trains to fully occupy the platform at St Pancras.

 

[Snow1964]

I don’t understand why they didn’t order fewer sets but made them 8-car. Surely the fact there are 33% fewer sets to staff, lease and maintain would be considerable.

DfT have decided what fleet should be, double units are painful to staff, but in theory can double up 5car to 10car for busy trains. The length being governed by relatively short (for mainline) St Pancras platforms.

But you are basically correct, the assumption that about half the trains only need half the capacity is bit blunt, GWR have struggled with it too, and too slow to couple and uncouple on route if only half the journey is busy.

There are trains where loads ideally need 7 or 8 cars which don't really fit this model. Stuck with 5 or 10 so overcrowded or wasting money, and staffing (ticket checking and catering) a second unit that only really needs to be extra 2-3 carriages is inefficient

 

[tbtc]

My view is that one conductor would struggle to get around a two hundred metre long train sufficiently often, as would one refreshment trolley

Given all of the other costs on the railway, a second person doing those roles doesn’t seem a significant imposition, if we are saying that the trains are going to have as many ticket holders as would require (at least) an eight coach train

 

[43096]

There are trains where loads ideally need 7 or 8 cars which don't really fit this model. Stuck with 5 or 10 so overcrowded or wasting money, and staffing (ticket checking and catering) a second unit that only really needs to be extra 2-3 carriages is inefficient

But having more than one formation in such a small fleet is an utter pig to manage. Matching train lengths to what needs what is a diagramming nightmare. Better a standard fleet of 5-car and running pairs where needed: you can always split an incoming pair to hold one set back for a later departure that needs a pair.

 

[Energy]

The class 807 order seems to be a very late recognition that 7car sets would be useful addition between 5car and full length.

No, Avanti needs stock which will fit at Liverpool South Parkway. You can't fit 2x5 or any pendolino there but a 7 car will fit and has equivalent capacity to a 9 car 390 while not having to use SDO.

A 5 car 810 has similar capacity to a 7 car 222 so I wouldn't be that concerned.

 

[TheBigD]

A 5 car 810 has similar capacity to a 7 car 222 so I wouldn't be that concerned.

810 (5car) will have 301 seats vs 338 seats on a 222 (7car) and 240 seats on most 222 (5 car).

There will also be 33 x 810 vs 27 x 222 so if fully utilised the MML will see a decent increase in capacity

 

[JonathanH]

There will also be 33 x 810 vs 27 x 222 so if fully utilised the MML will see a decent increase in capacity

Four of the 33 are accounted for by replacing the 7-car units, so it is a bit more like 29 vs 27.

 

[TheBigD]

Four of the 33 are accounted for by replacing the 7-car units, so it is a bit more like 29 vs 27.

Not sure I follow, unless you are counting 2 x 810 for replacing a 222/7. There are currently 23 x 222/5 and 4 x 222/7.

 

[JonathanH]

Not sure I follow, unless you are counting 2 x 810 for replacing a 222/7.

Yes, that is what I am counting, that the 7-222 diagrams would be replaced by 10-810 rather than 5-810, although that is still admittedly a capacity increase.

 

[Snow1964]

But having more than one formation in such a small fleet is an utter pig to manage. Matching train lengths to what needs what is a diagramming nightmare. Better a standard fleet of 5-car and running pairs where needed: you can always split an incoming pair to hold one set back for a later departure that needs a pair.

You don't really want to be splitting and leaving a train for later departure at St Pancras, tend to need to shunt it to some sidings due to lack of platforms to leave it in. Then of course got to bring it back later when needed. So not exactly hassle free having all 5car either.

 

[43096]

You don't really want to be splitting and leaving a train for later departure at St Pancras, tend to need to shunt it to some sidings due to lack of platforms to leave it in. Then of course got to bring it back later when needed. So not exactly hassle free having all 5car either.

Agreed. But they’ve done the shunt out to Cricklewood for many years, so it’s nothing new in terms of pathing.

 

[Peter Sarf]

You don't really want to be splitting and leaving a train for later departure at St Pancras, tend to need to shunt it to some sidings due to lack of platforms to leave it in. Then of course got to bring it back later when needed. So not exactly hassle free having all 5car either.

Yes makes a lot of sense to avoid doing splitting/joining at StPancras. Maybe possible in the early morning or late evening say, when two consecutive departures/arrivals only justify 5car. But generally I guess only feasible at the country end of a route. But then why do it there. Perhaps dropping a 5car at Derby while the rest continues North to Sheffield while the 5car awaits joining to a 5car from Sheffield.

For me I would have gone for simplicity and had full length units. What proportion of services only justify a 5car train ?. What would the cost saving be of reducing the number of cabs and staff required for two units on the 10 car services ?.

 

[PG]

Yes makes a lot of sense to avoid doing splitting/joining at StPancras. Maybe possible in the early morning or late evening say, when two consecutive departures/arrivals only justify 5car. But generally I guess only feasible at the country end of a route. But then why do it there. Perhaps dropping a 5car at Derby while the rest continues North to Sheffield while the 5car awaits joining to a 5car from Sheffield.

Given that GWR haven't been able to reliably do country end splits/joins why risk it at EMR? Also screws up the timetable in the event of disruption, occupying platforms and importing delays all over the place!

 

[baz962]

Given that GWR haven't been able to reliably do country end splits/joins why risk it at EMR? Also screws up the timetable in the event of disruption, occupying platforms and importing delays all over the place!

What am I missing. Attach and detach happens during the day at st pancras.

 

[Snow1964]

Some parts of the interior are already complete in other units. This one won't be done for a while as others have said. The internal photos (which sadly I can't share) look good.

The Interior rendering pictures were released in Jan 2021
Can clearly see power sockets between first class seats
There is fairly good description of seating specifications too

EMR unveils newly designed seats for Rock Rail East Midlands' state-of-the-art fleet - Rock Rail

East Midlands Railway (EMR) has revealed the newly designed seats for Rock Rail East Midlands' recently named Aurora fleet which is set to help transform passenger journeys between London, Sheffield and Nottingham.

rockrail.com

 

[AndrewJM70]

6-car sets might have been better. Significantly more capacity than any 222 set and still the ability to couple two together if needed but something that would only be necessary in the peak and maybe for only half the trains.

 

[43096]

6-car sets might have been better. Significantly more capacity than any 222 set and still the ability to couple two together if needed but something that would only be necessary in the peak and maybe for only half the trains.

The platform lengths at St Pancras are 240m. I’m not sure how you’d get two 6 car sets with 24m vehicles (=288m) in?

 

[dosxuk]

2x6 won't fit in the platforms at St Pancras, as the platforms were built to handle the standard train lengths of 12x20m or 10x23m which were being used across the network at the time of the station rebuild.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

6-car sets might have been better. Significantly more capacity than any 222 set and still the ability to couple two together if needed but something that would only be necessary in the peak and maybe for only half the trains.

Double 6 cars wouldn't fit, the carriages are smaller than the 80x to fit as 10 cars.
(Edit: looks like I was beaten to it)

 

[Peter Sarf]

Given that GWR haven't been able to reliably do country end splits/joins why risk it at EMR? Also screws up the timetable in the event of disruption, occupying platforms and importing delays all over the place!

Yes. Splitting/Joining just adds risk.

What am I missing. Attach and detach happens during the day at st pancras.

Not yet with IETs or derivetives of IETs (so 810s).

 

[dereksingh291]

when are the 810s entering service and replacing the 222s and are the 222s going over to CrossCountry?

 

[JonathanH]

when are the 810s entering service and replacing the 222s and are the 222s going over to CrossCountry?

There is no news that 222s are going to CrossCountry. 810s won't be in service until part way through 2024. Previous postings have indicated that it won't be until late 2025 that EMR will have all 810s in service. I wouldn't get ahead of yourself with worrying about the 222s.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Yes, that is what I am counting, that the 7-222 diagrams would be replaced by 10-810 rather than 5-810, although that is still admittedly a capacity increase.

... remembering that a 5x810 has 12 more standard class seats than a 7x222 and 60 more than a 5x222, so with the exception of where a 5x810 replaces a 7x222, passengers are going to see a significant capacity increase (although of course the thinning out of the EMR intercity fleet means some of these may have been downgraded recently).

Double 6 cars wouldn't fit, the carriages are smaller than the 80x to fit as 10 cars.

Yes, surely the reasoning behind the 810s as 5x24m units has surely been done to death?

The reality is that the alternative to a fleet of solely 5x24m units is a progressively smaller number of 10 car trains, but as you lose flexibility you need more carriages. e.g. running all EMR IC services as 10-car sets needs about 20 diagrams, so perhaps 24 units, which means 240 carriages need paying for, rather than 165. Good luck taking that proposal to Mark Harper.

 

[43066]

Not yet with IETs or derivetives of IETs (so 810s).

But does with the existing fleet. Why should 810s be more of a risk in this respect?!