Tweed Valley railway: Plan for proposed route to be revealed

[och aye]

I had to double check it wasn't the 1st April when I saw this article, but a campaign group called Tweed Valley Railway Campaign Group (which has been operating for over a year) are proposing a restoration of rail services between St Boswells and Berwick-upon-Tweed! They have a proposed map on their website:

There's probably more chance of the Stranraer to Dumfries line being rebuilt than this surely?!

Three-point plan for a proposed 'Tweed Valley railway' set to be revealed

RESTORATION of rail services between St Boswells and Berwick-upon-Tweed is heading down the track, a meeting will be told next week.

www.bordertelegraph.com

RESTORATION of rail services between St Boswells and Berwick-upon-Tweed is heading down the track, a meeting will be told next week.


The Tweed Valley Railway Campaign group believe the proposed route is central to the strategic growth and sustainable low-carbon future of both the Borders and north Northumberland.
Since being awarded a first community grant from the Cheviot Community Fund, the volunteer-led campaign has built up awareness and attracted strong support from along the proposed route and beyond with more than 300 supporters now on-board.

 

[zwk500]

This is a brilliant laugh: https://tweedvalleyrailway.co.uk/index

The vision of the Tweed Valley Railway Campaign is the restoration of rail services from St Boswells to Berwick-upon-Tweed.

This map details the proposed route, in line with the original line as detailed in the 1948 map below.

The new railway's route would depend on a feasibility study, which TVRC aims to bring about.

They literally have 2 maps. How the Border Telegraph has managed to write so much on them is quite staggering.

 

[70014IronDuke]

This is a brilliant laugh: https://tweedvalleyrailway.co.uk/index


They literally have 2 maps. How the Border Telegraph has managed to write so much on them is quite staggering.

Don't write them off so quickly, please!

They have a great vision, I'm reliably informed from a source I could not possibly disclose.

Because, there will soon be a Tweed Valley phase 2 project!

OK, I can give RailUK Forums the EXSCLUSIVE!

And do I mean EXCLUSIVE!!!!!

(Drum roll please!)

The exciting, visionary TWEED VALLEY PHASE 2 project is for .... an undersea tunnel to Denmark!

I don't think enough people realise the pent up demand from the Scottish Borders to Copenhagen and beyond - to Scandinavia, St Petersburg, Yekaterinberg and Siberia to boot!

Remember, build it and they will ....... become broke.

 

[zwk500]

Don't write them off so quickly, please!

Remember, build it and they will ....... become broke.

Oh I'm hoping they stick around, in August I start a new job and I sincerely hope we'll bid for their work

 

[Magdalia]

I don't think enough people realise the pent up demand from the Scottish Borders to Copenhagen and beyond - to Scandinavia

I have been to Gothenburg in Sweden and it has two celebrated cultural links with Scotland.

See the story of the Prestoungrange Gothenburg in Prestonpans here:

The Prestoungrange Gothenburg - Scotland's Pubs and Bars

The Goth, as it is affectionately known in Prestonpans, was established in 1908 to encourage less heavy drinking amongst the local miners and brickworkers. It was a product of the Temperance Movement at the turn of the twentieth century that advanced their cause by building fine establishments...

www.scotlandspubsandbars.co.uk

The Goth, as it is affectionately known in Prestonpans, was established in 1908 to encourage less heavy drinking amongst the local miners and brickworkers.​

Also Gothenburg fondly remembers Aberdeen's victory over Real Madrid in the 1983 European Cup Winners Cup Final, which was played in Gothenburg.

 

[zwk500]

I have been to Gothenburg in Sweden and it has two celebrated cultural links with Scotland.

See the story of the Prestoungrange Gothenburg in Prestonpans here:

Prestonpans isn't served by the Tweed Valley or Borders routes, though...

If we're at this level of justification I'm looking forward to Brighton and Hove city council proposing a special linking service next year with Malmo via a small village in Belgium for the anniversary of ABBA's Eurovision win on the South Coast with Waterloo.

 

[snowball]

According to post #3 of this recent thread, the financial case for extending the Borders railway to Kelso is stronger than for extending it to Hawick - though both are lousy!

 

[Western Lord]

This line never went to Berwick upon Tweed. It had a south facing junction with the ECML at Tweedmouth, there was never a north facing curve to the Royal Border Bridge and Berwick station. In any case the Tweedmouth end of the line has been built on with a road and Berwick Rangers football ground in the way.

 

[zwk500]

This line never went to Berwick upon Tweed. It had a south facing junction with the ECML at Tweedmouth, there was never a north facing curve to the Royal Border Bridge and Berwick station. In any case the Tweedmouth end of the line has been built on with a road and Berwick Rangers football ground in the way.

A connection into the ECML is not impossible, if you follow the A1 and have a connection south of the town. But frankly that's the least of their problems.

 

[berwicksfinest]

Maybe, but that doesn't preclude the MOM from being on the east bound NLL under signal protection.

This line never went to Berwick upon Tweed. It had a south facing junction with the ECML at Tweedmouth, there was never a north facing curve to the Royal Border Bridge and Berwick station. In any case the Tweedmouth end of the line has been built on with a road and Berwick Rangers football ground in the way.

They better keep their grubby little mitts off my team !!!

 

[sprinterguy]

I think a small part of their proposal has some merit: Extend the Borders Railway south to both Hawick and to Kelso, with one of the two Tweedbank trains per hour to each.

 

[zwk500]

I think a small part of their proposal has some merit: Extend the Borders Railway south to both Hawick and to Kelso, with one of the two Tweedbank trains per hour to each.

Tweedbank to Kelso is c.17miles. The turnround time at Tweedbank in the daytime is 7-10 minutes. Not only would you need another unit, you'd struggle to do the 24miles + turnround in time to hit the following half hour path. Similar distance and problems for Hawick.

And we still haven't got past the road being built on the trackbed at Melrose.

 

[sprinterguy]

Tweedbank to Kelso is c.17miles. The turnround time at Tweedbank in the daytime is 7-10 minutes. Not only would you need another unit, you'd struggle to do the 24miles + turnround in time to hit the following half hour path. Similar distance and problems for Hawick.

And we still haven't got past the road being built on the trackbed at Melrose.

It's inevitable that extended services would require additional units: Given that, even if such a proposal had spades in the ground tomorrow, Scotrail would probably have around 3-5 years to resource the additional trains, I don't envisage it being an insurmountable obstacle. The road occupying the old trackbed quite possibly is, though.

 

[swt_passenger]

Scottish rail enthusiasts propose railway restoration in England. Who do they think will pay? Northumberland county council are hardly likely to be interested.

 

[zwk500]

It's inevitable that extended services would require additional units: Given that, even if such a proposal had spades in the ground tomorrow, Scotrail would probably have around 3-5 years to resource the additional trains, I don't envisage it being an insurmountable obstacle.

It's not physically having the units that's a problem (although it's certainly a thing to consider) but operating them - the additional Driver and Fuel costs are unlikely to be lower than the potential fare take so ScotGov will need to support the extension of the services long-term with public money. Are they willing to give a 50-year commitment to that, and can they guarantee it?

The road occupying the old trackbed quite possibly is, though.

I admire your optimism. The road won't be torn up and there's not an accessible corridor that can be reached from Tweedbank station, the only alternative would be to CPO the houses adjacent to the road and flatten a path. This rather goes against the premise of rebuilding a line...

Scottish rail enthusiasts propose railway restoration in England. Who do they think will pay? Northumberland county council are hardly likely to be interested.

In their mind, the benefits are so huge and obvious that nobody will mind chipping in the 2 shillings and thruppence that the line should cost to construct with some burly navvies and a good engineer with some smashing whiskers.

 

[sprinterguy]

It's not physically having the units that's a problem (although it's certainly a thing to consider) but operating them - the additional Driver and Fuel costs are unlikely to be lower than the potential fare take so ScotGov will need to support the extension of the services long-term with public money. Are they willing to give a 50-year commitment to that, and can they guarantee it?

Wouldn't be the first rural service that doesn't cover its direct costs, but I'll concede that it would be a major barrier to introducing a service from the ground up as opposed to supporting a pre-existing service.

I admire your optimism.

I shall certainly accept that compliment, as it's not something I'm typically known for haha.

The road won't be torn up and there's not an accessible corridor that can be reached from Tweedbank station, the only alternative would be to CPO the houses adjacent to the road and flatten a path. This rather goes against the premise of rebuilding a line..

Which puts it in the realm of difficult and unpalatable, but not necessarily impossible. Wasn't there some element of compulsory purchase required for the Borders railway as it stands already?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a proponent of the "Everywhere must have a railway" school of thought, but I can envisage some social benefit to reconnecting Kelso and Hawick to the Borders railway.

 

[Falcon1200]

They better keep their grubby little mitts off my team !!!

But it would provide an opportunity for Berwick Rangers to relocate their ground to the same country as the League they play in.......

 

[waverley47]

When I did the original BCRs for the Borders line, we did look at this. Thoroughly we looked at this. We spent six months looking at this, asking if there were any way to make the sums work.

There isn't.

It's a complete basket case.

Extending from Galashiels:

Kelso has a BCR of about 0.5
Hawick has a BCR of about 0.4
Jedburgh has a BCR of about 0.2

It's interesting that kelso has a higher BCR than Hawick, but that's because you start to pull in people from Northumberland and the Hawse, whereas Hawick is in the middle of nowhere. And that's only from Galashiels to Kelso, and not the rest of the line through the Tweed Valley wilderness to reach Berwick

 

[Dr Day]

It's a complete basket case.

If it was a complete basket case when the original BCRs where calculated, it will be even bigger now as railway construction costs rises have exceeded general inflation, and the gap between revenue and operating costs has probably gone the wrong way too. If those are the BCRs for extending from Galashiels, those for extending from Tweedbank will be even lower, given the 'easy bit' engineering-wise has been built, and already attracts demand from a wide catchment including Kelso, Hawick and Jedburgh etc.

 

[berwicksfinest]

But it would provide an opportunity for Berwick Rangers to relocate their ground to the same country as the League they play in.......

Quite happy at Shielfield, and don't intend to warm the Lowland for too much longer

 

[Cheshire Scot]

This line never went to Berwick upon Tweed. It had a south facing junction with the ECML at Tweedmouth, there was never a north facing curve to the Royal Border Bridge and Berwick station. In any case the Tweedmouth end of the line has been built on with a road and Berwick Rangers football ground in the way.

Do you mean Shielfield Park is in the way of a potential new alignment? Admittedly the road - and some industrial units - is a major obstacle likely to prevent any new line line from going anywhere close to the football ground.
Given the line didn't close until the early/mid 1960's but Berwick Rangers have been there since 1954, Shielfield cannot be on the original alignment. I have to admit on my only visit to that ground in 1980 I was unaware of the very close proximity of the former railway alignment but that visit does stick in my mind due to two special goals, one goal scored direct from a corner kick and one goal scored by a goalkeeper with a clearance, neither of which I have seen at any other match out of probably close to 1000 matches which I have attended. I would add neither of these goals was scored by Berwick Rangers!

 

[PTR 444]

If we're at this level of justification I'm looking forward to Brighton and Hove city council proposing a special linking service next year with Malmo via a small village in Belgium for the anniversary of ABBA's Eurovision win on the South Coast with Waterloo.

With a reversal at Waterloo International perhaps?

 

[Killingworth]

As one brought up with a love of maps, both old and modern, I wonder how projects like this ever draw breath.

Sparesely populated area. Large sections of old railway track bed now used by modern roads.

No obvious freight traffic to justify massive expense. When driving in that area traffic is very light.

The combination of railway nostalgia with environmental idealism leads to delusional diversion of attention from far more viable projects.

 

[Bald Rick]

The combination of railway nostagia with environmental idealism leads to delusional diversion of attention from far more viable projects.

A perfect sentence to describe many speculative ideas! I will have to remember where this is and repost it whenever another bonkers proposal appears.

(I‘d argue that the environmental idealism part is used only for convenience, and will be hastily dropped in a few years when electric cars and buses are in widespread use).

 

[Falcon1200]

don't intend to warm the Lowland for too much longer

Glad to hear that!

 

[Western Lord]

Do you mean Shielfield Park is in the way of a potential new alignment? Admittedly the road - and some industrial units - is a major obstacle likely to prevent any new line line from going anywhere close to the football ground.
Given the line didn't close until the early/mid 1960's but Berwick Rangers have been there since 1954, Shielfield cannot be on the original alignment. I have to admit on my only visit to that ground in 1980 I was unaware of the very close proximity of the former railway alignment but that visit does stick in my mind due to two special goals, one goal scored direct from a corner kick and one goal scored by a goalkeeper with a clearance, neither of which I have seen at any other match out of probably close to 1000 matches which I have attended. I would add neither of these goals was scored by Berwick Rangers!

According to the map I was looking at, there is an "Old Shielfield Park" to the east of and at 90 degrees to the existing stadium, which apparently is also used for greyhound racing and speedway. The old one would have had the railway on its northern edge, the north end of the new one encroaches on the old track bed.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

According to the map I was looking at, there is an "Old Shielfield Park" to the east of and at 90 degrees to the existing stadium, which apparently is also used for greyhound racing and speedway. The old one would have had the railway on its northern edge, the north end of the new one encroaches on the old track bed.

Try 'RailMapOnline' and although the ground itself is not clearly shown there is a path going round the north side of it (which is also visible on Google Earth) before the railway . It seems to me a ground in use since 1954 cannot encroach on a trackbed in use until 1964 unless the site has subsequently been extended which I don't believe it has - @berwicksfinest may wish to comment. On Google Earth I think a short stretch of trackbed is visible close to the ECML and projecting that westwards would miss Shielfield Park and go through the adjacent industrial area. Old Shielfield Park was a previous home of Berwick Rangers.

It doesn't really matter as it is not going to be built!

 

[A0wen]

A perfect sentence to describe many speculative ideas! I will have to remember where this is and repost it whenever another bonkers proposal appears.

(I‘d argue that the environmental idealism part is used only for convenience, and will be hastily dropped in a few years when electric cars and buses are in widespread use).

Bit in bold - I admire your optimism, but the 'eco-mentalists' are already shifting the sands where cars are concerned by arguing that tail pipe emissions aren't the problem, but tyre particle, brake dust and congestion really are the problems. Basically such people are authoritarians who dislike people making their own choices and much prefer everyone to be dependent on the state for their transport needs (apart from walking and cycling, though the state has to make provision for both of those) - their ideal seems to be based on China in the 1980s...... the irony being such people consider themselves "progressive"......

 

[Western Lord]

Try 'RailMapOnline' and although the ground itself is not clearly shown there is a path going round the north side of it (which is also visible on Google Earth) before the railway . It seems to me a ground in use since 1954 cannot encroach on a trackbed in use until 1964 unless the site has subsequently been extended which I don't believe it has - @berwicksfinest may wish to comment. On Google Earth I think a short stretch of trackbed is visible close to the ECML and projecting that westwards would miss Shielfield Park and go through the adjacent industrial area. Old Shielfield Park was a previous home of Berwick Rangers.

It doesn't really matter as it is not going to be built!

Having checked National Library of Scotland OS large scale mapping and using the side by side function for satellite view, it does indeed seem that the line ran north of the existing ground. As you say it is of no importance anyway. Looking at the old mapping, it does seem strange that a north facing curve was not built when there was open land available, as presumably Berwick was the traffic objective rather than Tweedmouth.

 

[zwk500]

Bit in bold - I admire your optimism, but the 'eco-mentalists' are already shifting the sands where cars are concerned by arguing that tail pipe emissions aren't the problem, but tyre particle, brake dust and congestion really are the problems.

They're not arguing tail pipe emissions aren't the problem, but that they're only one part of a wider problem.
Particulates, Carbon dioxide, Carbon Monoxide, tyre dust, brake dust, space inefficiencies and so on are all genuine issues that need addressing.
People like Just Stop Oil are a massive problem for the battle to get climate change under control, because their unreasonableness stops people who are naturally resistant/hesitant of the changes required from being prepared to listen to anybody who says having less car journeys would be a good thing.