Scotrail HSTs - 4-5 years in

[kkong]

It’s worth nothing the railway doesn’t generally do things for the sake of doing things…

That made me laugh!

How often we're told on here by railway staff when any changed method of working or new idea is proposed that "it's the way it's always been done".

Certainly drivers used to use the passage to move from HST cab to rear of the power car.

Maybe a small turntable at Haymarket might be an idea, rather than spending 2 hours and driving 90 miles of whatever round Fife just to turn a loco.

I believe turntables were once widespread on the network.

 

[43096]

Maybe a small turntable at Haymarket might be an idea, rather than spending 2 hours and driving 90 miles of whatever round Fife just to turn a loco.

I believe turntables were once widespread on the network.

Neville Hill made good use of their turntable for over 40 years turning HST power cars.

 

[Falcon1200]

Maybe a small turntable at Haymarket might be an idea, rather than spending 2 hours and driving 90 miles of whatever round Fife just to turn a loco.

There is a triangle on which trains can be turned literally opposite the depot! However for reasons explained above it is awkward to use.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Whether it would be possible is another thing of course, but having two Drivers on board, on in each cab, would mean the triangles at Haymarket or Niddrie (depending on route knowledge) could be used. Less time-consuming than a scenic tour of Fife!

No staff are permitted in the trailing powercar due to fire suppression requirements. I don't have the ins/outs but just know it is banned.

 

[Falcon1200]

No staff are permitted in the trailing powercar due to fire suppression requirements. I don't have the ins/outs but just know it is banned.

Thanks.

 

[chuff chuff]

It can be done on a very limited basis,very short turn rounds for engineering works etc again as above can't remember the full in and outs of it.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Set 43034+HA03+43028 has just failed on 1T46 ABD-GLQ. Passengers & crew transferred to 43015+HA20+43129

 

[kkong]

Set 43034+HA03+43028 has just failed on 1T46 ABD-GLQ. Passengers & crew transferred to 43015+HA20+43129

Any description of the failure?

We never seem to hear too much of the detail of the failures.

I remember back to when sets were being "failed" because the crew didn't understand how the door locking worked ("disco lights").

 

[gabrielhj07]

None beyond what the guard described as brake trouble, which I presumed to mean they wouldn’t release, so perhaps a leak somewhere?

As it turns out, 1T46 with its new set was cancelled at Stirling with brake issues of its own. Glad I decided to leave it when I did!

 

[Abc100]

It’s being reported in the press today that unions are instructing drivers to boycott scotrail HST’s from August. I thought that scotrail had a working group with them that was progressing on addressing safety concerns?

 

[jagardner1984]

Presumably addressing them is progressing as successfully and rapidly for Scotrail as making the wheels turn round and round reliably did.

Astonishes me there isn’t more noise made (outside of this forum) as to what the plan is for what happens after these trains …. Which may come sooner than anyone thought if ASLEF have their way !

 

[XAM2175]

Well, apparently they're being fitted with lifeguards to current standards in the near future, at least.

 

[millemille]

It’s being reported in the press today that unions are instructing drivers to boycott scotrail HST’s from August. I thought that scotrail had a working group with them that was progressing on addressing safety concerns?

Would you have a source for that?

 

[John Bishop]

Well, apparently they're being fitted with lifeguards to current standards in the near future, at least.

I would class that as a disgrace given how long it’s been to implement this. This should have been a priority from day 1.

 

[The exile]

Sod the poor passenger cramped on a commuter train instead of an Inter7City, eh?

Well, if your set fails before departure from Inverness, would you rather have the 158 that’s spare at Inverness or wait for the spare HST that’s sitting at Aberdeen?

 

[millemille]

I would class that as a disgrace given how long it’s been to implement this. This should have been a priority from day 1.

I would suggest that "disgrace" is verging on hyperbole.

RAIB were clear that they had insufficient evidence to attribute the lifeguards not meeting current standards as a causal factor at Cairmont. No previous accident investigations involving class 43's, as far as I'm aware, had identified lifeguard design as a causal factor, so there's no need for an immediate response.

I know the design of the new lifeguards was pretty much complete last year, 6 months after the RAIB final report was issued, and costings for installation were being put together early this year.

But like everything else in the modern railway, every pound of public money being spent on something like lifeguards is a pound not being spent on schools/hospitals/police/nurses etc. so it takes a long time to get sign off from Transport Scotland. And this is further delayed by changes/vacancies in senior management at Scotrail & Scotrail Holdings and the change in Scottish government cabinet positions post the SNP leadership change throwing a further spanner in the works.

 

[Abc100]

Would you have a source for that?

Train drivers set for August 'boycott' over Stonehaven rail crash failures

Unions made their anger clear over the use of High Speed Trains following the rail tragedy at Carmont, which killed three men on August 12, 2020.

www.pressandjournal.co.uk

 

[millemille]

Train drivers set for August 'boycott' over Stonehaven rail crash failures

Unions made their anger clear over the use of High Speed Trains following the rail tragedy at Carmont, which killed three men on August 12, 2020.

www.pressandjournal.co.uk

Many thanks.

 

[John Bishop]

I would suggest that "disgrace" is verging on hyperbole.

RAIB were clear that they had insufficient evidence to attribute the lifeguards not meeting current standards as a causal factor at Cairmont. No previous accident investigations involving class 43's, as far as I'm aware, had identified lifeguard design as a causal factor, so there's no need for an immediate response.

I know the design of the new lifeguards was pretty much complete last year, 6 months after the RAIB final report was issued, and costings for installation were being put together early this year.

But like everything else in the modern railway, every pound of public money being spent on something like lifeguards is a pound not being spent on schools/hospitals/police/nurses etc. so it takes a long time to get sign off from Transport Scotland. And this is further delayed by changes/vacancies in senior management at Scotrail & Scotrail Holdings and the change in Scottish government cabinet positions post the SNP leadership change throwing a further spanner in the works.

Which in itself I would class as a disgrace. The need for an upgrade was identified by the company and ASLEF, yet the whole things gets wrapped up in red tape. Not good enough.

 

[43096]

Which in itself I would class as a disgrace. The need for an upgrade was identified by the company and ASLEF, yet the whole things gets wrapped up in red tape. Not good enough.

The only totally safe railway is one that is closed. As the railway becomes increasingly safe, safety spend needs to be targeted at schemes with the biggest benefit. Much better to stop trains coming off the track and off bridges in the first place.

 

[Davester50]

Well, if your set fails before departure from Inverness, would you rather have the 158 that’s spare at Inverness or wait for the spare HST that’s sitting at Aberdeen?

It was a reply to the lack of facilities that would prevent failures...

 

[Mordac]

The only totally safe railway is one that is closed. As the railway becomes increasingly safe, safety spend needs to be targeted at schemes with the biggest benefit. Much better to stop trains coming off the track and off bridges in the first place.

You should suggest that to the ORR. You'll probably get a gong out of it.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I would suggest that "disgrace" is verging on hyperbole.

RAIB were clear that they had insufficient evidence to attribute the lifeguards not meeting current standards as a causal factor at Cairmont. No previous accident investigations involving class 43's, as far as I'm aware, had identified lifeguard design as a causal factor, so there's no need for an immediate response.

I know the design of the new lifeguards was pretty much complete last year, 6 months after the RAIB final report was issued, and costings for installation were being put together early this year.

But like everything else in the modern railway, every pound of public money being spent on something like lifeguards is a pound not being spent on schools/hospitals/police/nurses etc. so it takes a long time to get sign off from Transport Scotland. And this is further delayed by changes/vacancies in senior management at Scotrail & Scotrail Holdings and the change in Scottish government cabinet positions post the SNP leadership change throwing a further spanner in the works.

I would expect the consequence in a 170 to have been very similar in terms of a right mess and lots of deaths.

I suppose ASLEF aren't as worried about the strikes leading to reductions in spending on earthworks renewals. As long as the HST are boycotted for some nice point scoring.

Anyway agree disgrace is hyperbole. The root cause was an earthworks failure, that is where the focus needs to be and indeed has been.

 

[XCTurbostar]

There is no evidence to suggest that had lifeguards of modern design been fitted to the HST PCs, the conclusion would have been different. If the issue is that the current lifeguards have lost their designed structural integrity then this is a maintenance issue, not a design issue.

HST lifeguards were less robust than those on more modern trains. Although
a stronger modern lifeguard may have been better able to move sufficient
washout debris out of the path of the leading wheelset to prevent the
derailment, RAIB had insufficient evidence to determine the likelihood of this
happening (paragraph 267, Recommendation 14).

 

[John Bishop]

I suppose ASLEF aren't as worried about the strikes leading to reductions in spending on earthworks renewals. As long as the HST are boycotted for some nice point scoring.

The SG are doing that all by themselves as they’ve reduced the infrastructure budget by £150 million over the last 4 years.

Only 2 of the 20 recommendations from the incident have been implemented which is understandably raising tensions with the Unions.

Asides the lifeguard issue, there are a number of other concerns regarding the rolling stock which came to light as a result of Carmont.

Couplers detached which may have affected the carriage trajectory.
Carriage bogies detached (not fitted with any retention) allowing uncontrolled lateral movements during derailment.
Carriage end collision pillars failed.

Anyone who has had any dealings with the Scotrail HST fleet will be aware of the extent of the corrosion within the carriage body and roof areas. This issue has also led to the RSSB flagging up some further investigation to establish a future basis.

ASLEF have made it clear for a very long time now that their Drivers will be boycotting HSTs from August 12th this year unless significant improvements take place which to date, clearly hasn’t happened.

Perhaps it’s time for the SG to finally bite the bullet and invest in new rolling stock to replace the HST rather than pouring more good money after bad in this failed project.

 

[43096]

ASLEF have made it clear for a very long time now that their Drivers will be boycotting HSTs from August 12th this year unless significant improvements take place which to date, clearly hasn’t happened.

As there’s no stock available to replace them then perhaps the Scottish Government should hire in road coaches to replace the I7C service and make the drivers redundant instead. That might concentrate ASLEF minds a bit.

Perhaps it’s time for the SG to finally bite the bullet and invest in new rolling stock to replace the HST rather than pouring more good money after bad in this failed project.

Ah, that’s what it’s about - another Scottish anti-HST rant. I’d suggest the biggest issue with the ScotRail HST fleet is staff attitudes.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

The difference between most of the comments on here and the SR drivers is that of course only one group of people sit at the sharp end of the trains and drive them, all day long. We need to take that seriously. If ASLEF believes that the railway has done very little post Carmont, it's to be expected that they want to pressure SR into taking more action. Whatever HSTs were designed for back in the day, weaving along on sinuous track at relatively low speeds on infrastructure that mostly normally just sees lighter-weight DMUs (other than 2 x LHCS to each of INV and ABD/day) and seems to be at ever higher risk (pace the Mair report) from wash-outs was probably not it..... Recall what a car designed in the early 70s won't have in terms of factors such as wheel-slip protection, corrosion resistance, crash-worthiness and noise suppression.....

 

[northernbelle]

As there’s no stock available to replace them then perhaps the Scottish Government should hire in road coaches to replace the I7C service and make the drivers redundant instead. That might concentrate ASLEF minds a bit.

Ah, that’s what it’s about - another Scottish anti-HST rant. I’d suggest the biggest issue with the ScotRail HST fleet is staff attitudes.

Rant? Seems like a perfectly reasoned argument to me.

 

[jagardner1984]

Problems across the industry will be assuaged by the clarity of a plan to eradicate said problem.

RMT had an agreement a few years ago about having retention tanks fitted to all stock. I’m sure it didn’t make it any less awful for those who still got sprayed in the final weeks and months, but at least a change was coming. As far as I know, there was no industrial action from that specific issue.

ASLEF have enough issues to deal with without manufacturing new ones - when someone (a colleague, a friend) loses their life - it brings into sharp focus the risks taken on a daily basis.

Doubtless a lot of this could be alleviated with more clarity and urgency on the plan to replace these trains, which are clearly, to put it extremely politely, on the wane.

 

[Falcon1200]

Whatever HSTs were designed for back in the day, weaving along on sinuous track at relatively low speeds on infrastructure that mostly normally just sees lighter-weight DMUs (other than 2 x LHCS to each of INV and ABD/day) and seems to be at ever higher risk (pace the Mair report) from wash-outs was probably not it.

The routes served by Scotrail HST are not exactly sinuous, low speed or normally just seeing DMUs; A fair amount is even double track! The Glasgow and Edinburgh to Aberdeen and Inverness routes are main lines, and of course Inverness-Perth-Stirling-Edinburgh and Aberdeen-Edinburgh have been served by HSTs for decades.