Scotrail HSTs - 4-5 years in

[BRX]

I know this might just prompt the repetition of many arguments that have already been had many times over... Perhaps we can keep this thread focused on the situation now rather than discussions about whether the HST project should have happened in the first place.

So far it's had to survive the implementation delays, two years of covid, carmont, and acute driver shortages.

But where are we at now?
- Implementation of 5 coach sets is well underway (I think?)
- Bike provision has finally been improved - but not using the power cars?
- Is catering happening at all yet? I'm writing this from a Glasgow to Inverness service with the hatches down on the cafe bar counter.
- How often are substitutions happening now: if you book on a service advertised as Intercity what are your chances of actually getting an HST rather than a unit?

Some observations from the train I'm on:
- most of the lighting is still the horrible "cold white" variety inherited from GWR although one coach seems to have better, warmer lighting. Is it gradually being changed?
- none of the doors between passenger compartment and vestibule are working - they're all stuck open. Have they just given up on fixing them? This seems to defeat the purpose of having stock without mid compartment external doors as the cold is still felt when the doors open. And it doesn't help that the external doors themselves seem not to have an automatic close on them... So once they are opened at a station stop they stay like that until departure.

The result of all this is that I don't have any underfloor engine drone beneath my feet (which I do appreciate) but all the gangway clanking and creaking is audible and it's just ever so slightly too chilly.

All of these problems could be resolved if there was the will, surely.

 

[route101]

The buffet counters never really got a chance to open. I think they stopped using them long before Covid. Only once I seen the counter open. I think the issue was there was only one person to man the trolley and counter.

I thought catering is back with exception of the Edinburgh to Glasgow route.

 

[Techniquest]

The staff on my Glasgow to Inverness run recently said they are still training new staff up (one of them was new himself) so catering is slowly coming back. It just needs the staff to operate it. Slowly but surely!

I had no issues with the vestibule doors on the three sets I did. Availability of sets was a bit iffy when I was up there last week, a few I7C workings were 158/170 vice HST. Thankfully I could work around that.

It did seem they were doing their best with them, indeed with circumstances such as a leaking roof in one of the coaches on the set I had from Aberdeen to Glasgow, they could have taken it out of service which would have been hugely unpopular. On arrival in Glasgow (this was the 0639 from Aberdeen), it looked pretty well loaded in Standard.

I do like that the First Class interior still has those awesome ex-FGW seats, they're huge and great to have around

 

[BRX]

Looks like catering wasn't supposed to be available on my train today (although I'm pretty sure it was shown as available on the journey planner when i booked it).

Seems to be a pretty scattergun approach at present - if you happen to travel on the right day of the week you might be lucky:

On-train hospitality

Drinks and snacks on longer distance journeys.

www.scotrail.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

I do like that the First Class interior still has those awesome ex-FGW seats, they're huge and great to have around

Yet always such a let down because the seat base is so firm. It looks like an armchair but isn't.

 

[hexagon789]

Implementation of 5 coach sets is well underway (I think?)

5 sets

Bike provision has finally been improved - but not using the power cars?

Correct

Is catering happening at all yet? I'm writing this from a Glasgow to Inverness service with the hatches down on the cafe bar counter.

Buffets are not in use, relatively few services have even a trolley and some services are only provided two or three days a week.

How often are substitutions happening now: if you book on a service advertised as Intercity what are your chances of actually getting an HST rather than a unit?

Presently, high chance of substitutions.

There are 15 Mon-Sat and 13 Sunday diagrams currently.

Here's the last 15 days:

Wed 26th - 10/15; 6 broken on depot, one on B Exam, one missing power car, one set failure part diagram but repaired
Thurs 27th - 13/15
Fri 28th - 13/15; one failure on depot
Sat 29th - N/A
Sun 30th - 9/13
Mon 31st - 9/15; triple set failure on depot
Tues 1st - 9/15; one failure on depot, one failure in traffic
Wed 2nd - 5/15; 8 sets broken on depot, 3 failures on depot
Thurs 3rd - 6/15 plus one failure part diagram & recovered
Fri 4th - 8/15 plus one failure part diagram
Sat 5th - N/A
Sun 6th - 6 out, alterations due to no trains Glasgow-Perth
Mon 7th - 4 out, altered diagrams Edinburgh-Aberdeen & Perth-Inverness only
Tues 8th - 8/15; one failure on depot
Wed 9th - 9/15

(Figures refer to sets which worked their entire booked diagram without incident.)

 

[fgwrich]

Yet always such a let down because the seat base is so firm. It looks like an armchair but isn't.

Well, mine certainly doesn’t feel like such a let down. I wouldn’t say they are that firm compared to say, those in the 444 or IET.

Regarding catering, on the sets I did travel on this summer (and not substituted by 158729 x 3) I did have a trolley pass through the sets. I gather catering is due to come back next year, but with potential modifications to the TGFB - mostly electrical. I wonder if Wabtec underestimated the power draw of the buffet equipment compared to the standard TFs they were converted from?

 

[Bikeman78]

5 sets


Correct


Buffets are not in use, relatively few services have even a trolley and some services are only provided two or three days a week.


Presently, high chance of substitutions.

There are 15 Mon-Sat and 13 Sunday diagrams currently.

Here's the last 15 days:

Wed 26th - 10/15; 6 broken on depot, one on B Exam, one missing power car, one set failure part diagram but repaired
Thurs 27th - 13/15
Fri 28th - 13/15; one failure on depot
Sat 29th - N/A
Sun 30th - 9/13
Mon 31st - 9/15; triple set failure on depot
Tues 1st - 9/15; one failure on depot, one failure in traffic
Wed 2nd - 5/15; 8 sets broken on depot, 3 failures on depot
Thurs 3rd - 6/15 plus one failure part diagram & recovered
Fri 4th - 8/15 plus one failure part diagram
Sat 5th - N/A
Sun 6th - 6 out, alterations due to no trains Glasgow-Perth
Mon 7th - 4 out, altered diagrams Edinburgh-Aberdeen & Perth-Inverness only
Tues 8th - 8/15; one failure on depot
Wed 9th - 9/15

(Figures refer to sets which worked their entire booked diagram without incident.)

Thanks for this. I think I've seen more 158s on long distance trains than HSTs , during the past two days. Haymarket depot was full of HSTs earlier.

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks for this. I think I've seen more 158s on long distance trains than HSTs , during the past two days. Haymarket depot was full of HSTs earlier.

The day 8 sets were 'broken' and 3 failed on depot, I believe every Glasgow-Inverness bar one was a single 158 (one was a 170) and a couple of Aberdeens were too.

Just like 1992 really...

The main issue at present is leaf fall, the lack of WSP mods means most HSTs are failing with power cars having 50p shaped wheels.

The queue for the lathe shows no signs of diminishing.


If we go back to even just September, there were not only days with 15/15 out one day managed 16/15(!) and I would say the month had a steady average of 13/15 on Weekdays, not perfect but autumn certainly isn't being kind just now.

 

[PG]

It did seem they were doing their best with them, indeed with circumstances such as a leaking roof in one of the coaches on the set I had from Aberdeen to Glasgow, they could have taken it out of service which would have been hugely unpopular.

Crikey! I vaguely remember mention of leaking roofs way back when the first sets made it into service which Wabtec were going to remedy. Did that ever happen? Or have the repairs failed after a few years?

 

[BRX]

The main issue at present is leaf fall, the lack of WSP mods means most HSTs are failing with power cars having 50p shaped wheels.

Certainly noticed a bit of that lurching between front and rear power cars on the one i was on today - which i assumed to be thanks to slippery rails.

 

[hexagon789]

Certainly noticed a bit of that lurching between front and rear power cars on the one i was on today - which i assumed to be thanks to slippery rails.

Yes, makes some passengers a bit uneasy I've noticed but having experienced it in the past with the Chieftain I know what it is.

Basically all the original design does is detects a slip (7% rotational difference in bogie axle speeds, completely cuts power, then just reapplies to whatever setting the power handle is on at exactly the same level of motor current build up.

The newer Knorr Bremse system is much more intelligent.

The Girling trailer WSP isn't the best either, but the most damage is done under powering rather than braking with todays defensive driving.

You can still feel when the WSP kicks in under braking though, and I admit that's the time I do get a bit uneasy!

 

[scotraildriver]

The catering equipment is currently being recommissioned, lots of the sets require replacement inverters as the ones fitted by Wabtec at overhaul are all failing. A programme is underway at Inverness depot. Similarly a modification programme is underway on the vestibule doors as again, the new system fitted at refurbishment doesn't work properly. Almost all the other issues currently relate to wheel flats, but a new lathe is to be installed at Cadder depot which should really help. The problem is that there are only about 15 drivers who sign both HSTs and the route to the lathe at Shields (City Union) so finding someone to move the power cars can be tricky indeed. It's almost always someone working their day off. Furthermore the lathe can only take 4 cars so every set needs split and reformed twice every time. The new one will be a "drive through" so will eliminate all the time wasted splitting up and reforming the sets. Of course all these issues were known before the HSTs came to Scotland but Transport Scotland pressed ahead with them anyway, despite being strongly advised against it. Several people lost their jobs over it.
With regards the lighting, the standard class vehicles with softer lights were ones converted from 1st class vehicles in a previous life, and retained the dimmable lights. No plans to change any more.

 

[Bikeman78]

The catering equipment is currently being recommissioned, lots of the sets require replacement inverters as the ones fitted by Wabtec at overhaul are all failing. A programme is underway at Inverness depot. Similarly a modification programme is underway on the vestibule doors as again, the new system fitted at refurbishment doesn't work properly. Almost all the other issues currently relate to wheel flats, but a new lathe is to be installed at Cadder depot which should really help. The problem is that there are only about 15 drivers who sign both HSTs and the route to the lathe at Shields (City Union) so finding someone to move the power cars can be tricky indeed. It's almost always someone working their day off. Furthermore the lathe can only take 4 cars so every set needs split and reformed twice every time. The new one will be a "drive through" so will eliminate all the time wasted splitting up and reforming the sets. Of course all these issues were known before the HSTs came to Scotland but Transport Scotland pressed ahead with them anyway, despite being strongly advised against it. Several people lost their jobs over it.
With regards the lighting, the standard class vehicles with softer lights were ones converted from 1st class vehicles in a previous life, and retained the dimmable lights. No plans to change any more.

It's disappointing that these problems are ongoing four years in. It seems to be more of a problem in Scotland than it was on Great Western. More frequent stops and steeper gradients? Also I guess GWR was set up for HST operation including tyre turning at the main depots.

 

[BRX]

I wonder what the cost of fitting proper wheel slip protection would have been compared to the cost of installing a new wheel lathe.

 

[hexagon789]

I wonder what the cost of fitting proper wheel slip protection would have been compared to the cost of installing a new wheel lathe.

Given that installing up-to-date WSP would also save on wheel wear requiring use of the lathe in the first place, I think long term it would've been more cost effective.

Would also have greatly improved reliability in the autumn as well!


We are where we are, all we can do is hope this latest expenditure in the form of a newer and larger lathe facility at Cadder, proves fruitful next leaf fall season.

 

[scotraildriver]

It's disappointing that these problems are ongoing four years in. It seems to be more of a problem in Scotland than it was on Great Western. More frequent stops and steeper gradients? Also I guess GWR was set up for HST operation including tyre turning at the main depots.

Alot of the problems with the coaches relate to the first class/guards vehicle which is unique to Scotrail and getting Wabtec to do warranty work. As well as the inverter issues the whole coach regularly trips out causing loss of bell buzzers/PIS/ PA etc. On top of that 4 sets were identified as having insufficient corrosion repairs identified after Carmont and 2 have been at Wabtec almost 2 years with another recently joined and the 4th stored at Slateford waiting to go when another returns.

 

[43096]

Given that installing up-to-date WSP would also save on wheel wear requiring use of the lathe in the first place, I think long term it would've been more cost effective.

When the other HST operators (MML, East Coast, XC, Grand Central, NR) did it, the payback was through increased time between bogie overhauls. In some cases the increase was from 488,000 miles to over 600,000 miles between overhauls. Why GWR and ScotRail both decided against is a complete mystery.

 

[tbtc]

Has any specific reason been given re the lack of WSP?

I’m obviously no expert but it feels like a funny omission, a bit of a false economy… is it because they only expect to have the HSTs for a finite period (after which they’ll be scrapped), so have little incentive to take proper long term care?

I was against their introduction (for reasons that I won’t go over again, fully respecting the OP’s wishes) but even if you’ve been lumbered with trains that you didn’t want (not unique to Scotrail, happened with BR-era cascades, similar things happen at regional bus companies where HQ decides to dump cascaded stock on a depot - I remember the furore when National Express sent a/some Lynx/es to their Dundee operation, not realising that nobody in Beanoland was trained to drive them!)…

…surely there’d be some incentive to at least want to take proper care of them and get the most out of them (unless the lease almost encourages ScotRail to focus only on short term things since the ROSCO expect to write them off after ScotRail have finished?)

I’m partly asking as ScotRail are in a fairly different situation to most other “long distance” TOCs - LNER/ EMR/ GWR/ Avanti/ TPE all have had new trains recently/ have new trains in the pipeline (805/807/810 etc), so plenty reason to treat them well - XC have no plans to replace or even increase the Voyager fleet - but we all know that ScotRail’s HSTs will be dumped once zero emission trains are sourced for the long distance routes - has that led them to not justify “long term” investment in things like a wheel lathe?

 

[Techniquest]

Yet always such a let down because the seat base is so firm. It looks like an armchair but isn't.

I touched upon the First Class interior in my All Line Rover trip report (Day 6 now up, Day 7 is to undergo a re-write this afternoon), and I have to say I don't remember the seats being so firm in FGW days. That could just have been nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses creating false memories, but apart from the initial firmness I didn't have any comfort issues.

Considering that I did Aberdeen-Glasgow, then around 40 minutes later after a quick breakfast and onto another set it was Glasgow-Inverness, before later on doing Nairn-Inverness and finally Inverness-Aberdeen, the seats can't have been that bad!

Sadly of all those journeys, only Glasgow to Inverness had a trolley on it. As I mentioned in my previous post on this thread, the staff mentioned that they're recruiting and training new staff, so it's not that ScotRail have given up on it but it is coming back slowly.

I still say it is some of the best First Class out there!

Crikey! I vaguely remember mention of leaking roofs way back when the first sets made it into service which Wabtec were going to remedy. Did that ever happen? Or have the repairs failed after a few years?

I honestly don't know, I'm no expert. The leak in coach B on the set I had from Aberdeen to Glasgow (I didn't note the coach number) was only heard about from the guard. So I don't know what sort of leak or whatever it was, but I would like to hope Wabtec fixed any leaking roofs at the time!

All I can say for sure is that I enjoyed my time on ScotRail last week, it already seems like an eternity ago!

 

[hexagon789]

When the other HST operators (MML, East Coast, XC, Grand Central, NR) did it, the payback was through increased time between bogie overhauls. In some cases the increase was from 488,000 miles to over 600,000 miles between overhauls. Why GWR and ScotRail both decided against is a complete mystery.

I have often wondered that as well.

Has any specific reason been given re the lack of WSP

It isn't lack of, just they have the original 1970s equipment by Girling.

 

[fgwrich]

I have often wondered that as well.


It isn't lack of, just they have the original 1970s equipment by Girling.

Well, a mixture. The Girling stuff is rubbish (it tries to control the entire bogie) while the Westinghouse equipment does control both axles. Of course the upgraded stuff would have seen all the Girling equipment removed and standardised with the upgraded Westinghouse but, that of course costs money. You can always tell the difference in designs from both the axle covers - Girling on the left, 2 small orange pipes coming up from each axle box meeting in the middle of the bogie, with Westinghouse - Chunky, round axle box cover, with two orange pipes coming up and meeting in a box on the side of the bogie.

 

[hexagon789]

Well, a mixture. The Girling stuff is rubbish (it tries to control the entire bogie) while the Westinghouse equipment does control both axles. Of course the upgraded stuff would have seen all the Girling equipment removed and standardised with the upgraded Westinghouse but, that of course costs money. You can always tell the difference in designs from both the axle covers - Girling on the left, 2 small orange pipes coming up from each axle box meeting in the middle of the bogie, with Westinghouse - Chunky, round axle box cover, with two orange pipes coming up and meeting in a box on the side of the bogie.

I thought the upgraded equipment was Knorr Bremse?

And then the older types were the original Girling plus a BR design. The latter having individual axle control and being fitted to all LHCS Mk3B and to the WoE batch HSTs.

 

[43096]

I thought the upgraded equipment was Knorr Bremse?

Knorr Bremse acquired Westinghouse brakes (at least in the UK) in around 2000.

 

[D6130]

It seems to be more of a problem in Scotland than it was on Great Western. More frequent stops and steeper gradients? Also I guess GWR was set up for HST operation including tyre turning at the main depots.

Not hugely different from West Devon & Cornwall or Cardiff-Swansea-West Wales.

 

[hexagon789]

Knorr Bremse acquired Westinghouse brakes (at least in the UK) in around 2000.

So when people refer to either KB or Westinghouse WSP on HSTs, they are one and the same. Got that now!

 

[Bikeman78]

Not hugely different from West Devon & Cornwall or Cardiff-Swansea-West Wales.

That is true. I know Great Western had bad days but they were never down to 50% availability. Anyway, if you like 158s, now is the time to visit Scotland. Currently on 158712 on the 18:41 Aberdeen. Trip down memory lane!

 

[hexagon789]

That is true. I know Great Western had bad days but they were never down to 50% availability. Anyway, if you like 158s, now is the time to visit Scotland. Currently on 158712 on the 18:41 Aberdeen. Trip down memory lane!

Personally I do like 158s, though Inverness units not so much the ex-Haymarket ones.

Further to my previous post on sets in traffic:

Yesterday Thurs 10th - 8/15
Today Fri 11th - 6/15 plus one failure part diagram

 

[tbtc]

Further to my previous post on sets in traffic:

Yesterday Thurs 10th - 8/15
Today Fri 11th - 6/15 plus one failure part diagram

Thanks for the figures

But this is out of twenty six sets rakes of carriages and fifty four power cars?

So it’s not the “50%” availability that someone might think that the figures represent, it’s a case that, of twenty six trains, only six or eight are fit to run the fifteen diagrams that have been allocated to HSTs?

So frustrating, given that, if they could get twenty fit sets a day then that’s over a dozen DMUs that could be cascade onto other routes (given that some HST replacements see doubled up DMUs), a lot of passengers getting seats (e.g. the recent thread about ScotRail gently encouraging passengers to avoid a mid morning Inverness service as the 158 deputising for an HST cannot cope otherwise)

At least ScotRail were savvy enough to keep a few more DMUs than they thought that they needed, rather than assume something like 80% availability and ditch any DMUs that initially seemed surplus

(Instead of 80% availability, it’s more like 80% unavailability… ouch!)

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks for the figures

But this is out of twenty six sets rakes of carriages and fifty four power cars?

So it’s not the “50%” availability that someone might think that the figures represent, it’s a case that, of twenty six trains, only six or eight are fit to run the fifteen diagrams that have been allocated to HSTs?

So frustrating, given that, if they could get twenty fit sets a day then that’s over a dozen DMUs that could be cascade onto other routes (given that some HST replacements see doubled up DMUs), a lot of passengers getting seats (e.g. the recent thread about ScotRail gently encouraging passengers to avoid a mid morning Inverness service as the 158 deputising for an HST cannot cope otherwise)

At least ScotRail were savvy enough to keep a few more DMUs than they thought that they needed, rather than assume something like 80% availability and ditch any DMUs that initially seemed surplus

(Instead of 80% availability, it’s more like 80% unavailability… ouch!)

There are not 26 sets though for several reasons:

1 - HA22 was lost at Carmont, so there can only be 25 at absolute maximum
2 - some sets are stored

There are 21 sets that presently, if all working, are available for traffic:

HA01, 03-07, 09-11, 13-21 and 24-26.

HA05-07 and 10 & 11 are made up as 5-car with an extra TSL.

I do agree availability is poor, it might be better with the four extra sets though, at least if diagrams remained at 15/13.