WCML vs ECML

[Some guy]

What part of the WCML has the longest stretch of continuous 125mph running? I’m intrigued

It would have to be from Euston all the way until Stafford which is a 1/4 of the entire west coast Mainline

 

[Watershed]

It would have to be from Euston all the way until Stafford which is a 1/4 of the entire west coast Mainline

That's not continuous 125mph. Several stretches of lower speed limits, notably including 100mph around Atherstone.

 

[hexagon789]

From 19mi 46ch to 68mi 50ch Down
From to 68mi 65ch 19mi 73ch Up

I.e. almost 40 miles each way.

Though, that's for 390s only - 221s have a reduction to 115 down/110 up through Linslade Tunnels for approx 2 miles in each direction breaking their ability to run at 125mph continously over this section.

 

[J-2739]

Just a small point about my hometown: Warrington is a lot larger than many people think (211,200 population according to ONS) and York is smaller than people think (201,672 from the same source).

Of course, it's never going to have the tourist market York has (nor would it ever aim for that). But economically it has done well even when the rest of the country is facing hard times, from the 1980s onwards.

It is not a small place, business or population-wise.

Not that I'm offended - I did move away, and it's not the nicest place.

However, looking at station usage data alone, it is clear that York has the edge here. Only pre-covid, in 2019/20, York was pushing 10 million passengers per annum, which is more than threefold of the combined total of the two main Warrington stations. On a railway-importance ranking, Warrington is probably more equivalent to Barnsley.

Sorry, but the East Coast just does it better. Beat it!

 

[Class 170101]

If the Glasgow fasts were fast to, say Preston, it might be a far more equal comparison.

The former 16:30 was 4hrs and 8 mins for Euston, Preston and Glasgow Central only. (The train now has other stops added to it)

 

[BeijingDave]

Sorry, but the East Coast just does it better. Beat it!

Somewhat bizarre comment because that's not really the discussion here, the discussion is that the WCML should probably have a better service from Crewe to Glasgow.

And my point is that Warrington (and Preston) probably have the population to support a better service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And my point is that Warrington (and Preston) probably have the population to support a better service.

As I mentioned there's 3tph from Manchester which is often cheaper (on through +connections Advances, so you don't need to use a splitting site to see it) and gives you the civility of boarding at a terminus. A lot of people will do that as a result. Some might even drive to Stockport for that.

 

[Krokodil]

However, looking at station usage data alone, it is clear that York has the edge here. Only pre-covid, in 2019/20, York was pushing 10 million passengers per annum, which is more than threefold of the combined total of the two main Warrington stations. On a railway-importance ranking, Warrington is probably more equivalent to Barnsley.

Passenger figures at WBQ would probably double if those going to/from Earlestown and Runcorn East actually paid for their tickets.

 

[12LDA28C]

It would have to be from Euston all the way until Stafford which is a 1/4 of the entire west coast Mainline

Even if this were correct, it would be 1/3 of the entire WCML, not 1/4.

 

[hexagon789]

The former 16:30 was 4hrs and 8 mins for Euston, Preston and Glasgow Central only. (The train now has other stops added to it)

And the ECML still has the Up only Flying Scotsman in 4 hours with one stop and historically had one, two or three trains each way timed at 3h59 with two stops...

LUMO even has one Sunday service timed at 4hrs03 with two stops.

 

[YourMum666]

So let’s say I wanted to go direct from London to Edinburgh on the WCML and direct from London to Glasgow on the ECML, which one would take less time?

 

[zwk500]

So let’s say I wanted to go direct from London to Edinburgh on the WCML and direct from London to Glasgow on the ECML, which one would take less time?

Hardly a fair comparison considering London is east of Edinburgh and Edinburgh is east of Glasgow.

 

[BeijingDave]

Nice one.

Let's say I wanted to go to Liverpool on the WCML or ECML. Clearly the WCML wins.

In your faces, ECML fans!

 

[Bletchleyite]

So let’s say I wanted to go direct from London to Edinburgh on the WCML and direct from London to Glasgow on the ECML, which one would take less time?

Why, outside of disruption, would you want to?

 

[Krokodil]

So let’s say I wanted to go direct from London to Edinburgh on the WCML and direct from London to Glasgow on the ECML, which one would take less time?

6h05 EUS-EDB (via BHM, there are no truly direct services, only through services) vs 5h50 KGX-GLC.

If you did have a direct service on the WCML, it would take 4h40

 

[The Planner]

This thread feels like two bald men fighting over a comb. Who cares if it takes 10 minutes longer one way vs the other over 350 miles.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

This thread feels like two bald men fighting over a comb. Who cares if it takes 10 minutes longer one way vs the other over 350 miles.

Where's that like button?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

This thread feels like two bald men fighting over a comb. Who cares if it takes 10 minutes longer one way vs the other over 350 miles.

This is a fair point.

There is a "sweet spot" timing wise of about 2-2.5 hours which is in most peoples' "day trippable" territory without flying. That's why getting the London-Manchester time down from 2.5-3hrs by way of the West Coast modernisation was so beneficial.

Once you get much above that, you get into "you're spending a day travelling, basically", 10 minutes is indeed a bit neither here nor there.

 

[SargeNpton]

What a poor relation the West Coast operation is compared to the ECML. Just 13 direct EUS-GLC services today (Saturday) each running well over five hours. LNER in comparison have no less than 32 trains KGX-EDB, many at near weekday timings. Is there so little demand to GLC at weekends such that Avanti can just abandon any thought of a serious operation?

Now do the same comparison for Wednesday 21st June.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What part of the WCML has the longest stretch of continuous 125mph running? I’m intrigued

It's 49 miles of 125mph (EPS, Pendolino) between Watford Tunnel north portal and the Weedon reverse curves, which are 120, and then Kilsby Tunnel at 110 before 125 resumes.
That appears to be the longest single stretch of 125mph, but there are several more of 20+ miles, including Kilsby-Atherstone, Atherstone-Rugeley (TV4), Stafford-Basford Hall, Crewe-Acton Grange etc, plus some in the north and Scotland.
When it's "finished", HS2 will have 110 miles of at least 300km/h to Handsacre, or 150 miles to Crewe, improving journey times to all WCML destinations.

It’s historical. The LNER was always better than the LMS.

Faster, straighter, yes, not "better".
The cutback of Caledonian routes in Scotland took away the WCML advantage, leaving it to concentrate on the West Mids and NW England.
The WCML services more markets than the ECML.
But it is certainly taking longer to recover from Covid.

 

[Starmill]

There are 14 fast services from Glasgow to London in the Saturday WTT. From Edinburgh to London there are a 24 LNER and 5 Lumo services. A difference yes, but not one that's that big.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are 14 fast services from Glasgow to London in the Saturday WTT. From Edinburgh to London there are a 24 LNER and 5 Lumo services. A difference yes, but not one that's that big.

A difference that probably reflects the demand. Nice though Glasgow is, it's not a tourist destination in the way Edinburgh is.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A difference that probably reflects the demand. Nice though Glasgow is, it's not a tourist destination in the way Edinburgh is.

The tourists are mainly seasonal/weekends.
Edinburgh won't have the same advantage over Glasgow in the winter.
Glasgow has its own cultural attractions, and maybe twice the population catchment.
There's also nothing to stop a WCML Lumo-type service to Glasgow.
But Lumo won't try with its parent FG running Avanti for DfT.

 

[Davester50]

The tourists are mainly seasonal/weekends.
Edinburgh won't have the same advantage over Glasgow in the winter.

Not in my experience. Seasonal trade has become all year for Edinburgh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The tourists are mainly seasonal/weekends.
Edinburgh won't have the same advantage over Glasgow in the winter.

Disagree. Tourists go to Edinburgh all year round, e.g. for Christmas markets.

Glasgow has its own cultural attractions, and maybe twice the population catchment.

Hardly any tourists go to Glasgow compared with Edinburgh.

There's also nothing to stop a WCML Lumo-type service to Glasgow.
But Lumo won't try with its parent FG running Avanti for DfT.

There isn't much of a need for one even if they didn't. It's quite telling that Grand Union were after the North West, not Glasgow.

 

[Davester50]

Disagree. Tourists go to Edinburgh all year round, e.g. for Christmas markets.

Exactly. Edinburgh has so many issues with AirBnB places all year, let alone Festival or Christmas and Hogmanay.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Lumo allegedly targetted the London-Edinburgh air market.
The London-Glasgow air market is of similar size.

 

[Davester50]

The London-Glasgow air market is of similar size.

CAA figures by route for March 2023 are:

LGW to EDI	36451	LGW to GLA	33699
LHR to EDI	88233	LHR to GLA	72666
LCY to EDI	31198	LCY to GLA	18688
LTN to EDI	24104	LTN to GLA	21333
STN to EDI	46548	STN to GLA	16717
Total	226534		163103

That's a considerable difference for what is a much smaller city.

 

[Nottingham59]

The former 16:30 was 4hrs and 8 mins for Euston, Preston and Glasgow Central only. (The train now has other stops added to it)

How long will Euston-Glasgow take when HS2 phase 1 gets built?

 

[The Planner]

How long will Euston-Glasgow take when HS2 phase 1 gets built?

As it stands today? it won't unless they reintroduce the work to Handsacre.