Ticket office closures

[Silverlinky]

Was there uproar when they closed the travel centres? Another victim of progress I guess?

 

[fgwrich]

For me, one of the biggest issues is that I don't believe ticket machines and apps have a duty of impartiality, wheras ticket offices do.

I have to say, this is one area SWR's machines excel at. Travelling up to Rail Live the other day, the machine was somewhat keen to provide me with the cheapest fare possible, and keen too remind me what time the ticket could / couldn't me used along with the routing. Personally, I would chose to keep the ticket offices are the larger hub / interchange stations - eg Basingstoke, Winchester, Reading etc. Round here, we have ticket offices (part time hours) at stations like Bramley, Mortimer, Theale, Micheldever and Possibly both Reading Green Park & soon to be Reading West too - do they all need to be staffed during the morning hours? Could some of the staff be re-utilised at some of these stations? Traveling around Scotland quite a lot I encounter a considerable number of unstaffed stations - do they have more or less issues in Scotland?

However, I do share the fear that this is another area of decimation of the railways that the current bunch in power are trying to achieve, all under the name of efficiency savings. The same sort of "You can do more with less" attitude they've spent trying to ram in my former public service life over the last decade, only for that to bite them badly enough to have to re-recruit similar numbers in a now broken public sector environment.

 

[david1212]

Unfortunately, some booking office staff have done themselves out of a job. Some (even supervisors) don’t seem to have an understanding of basic ticketing principles, and very basic enquiries go unanswered or incorrectly answered. And although I have occasionally been given advice for using a longer distance tickets and breaking my journey, it was my understanding that they’re not technically supposed to do this.

My preferred replacement for booking offices is an ‘expert mode’ website which sells ticket types rather than by itinerary, including rovers.

That would be a step forward for buying in advance.
While very much second best at every TVM be able to link to a well trained team like using Zoom who can advise and input the data as now with the purchase clearly shown on the TVM screen then when paid the tickets are printed.

 

[87electric]

According to the Guardian article 1 in 8 tickets are bought at a ticket office. One can see why redeployment to helping people might be better use of the resource.

And issue them with roller skates to multi task quicker? I jest. But, Tesco did employ instore helpers at one time to whiz around on roller skates to speed up your shopping experience. It didn't last long.

 

[Horizon22]

If it wasn't going to happen now, it would be in 5 years, or 10 years. Only a matter of time and something we'll see as natural as the removal of bus conductors in time. This was a battle that was only going in one direction not because of an evil government, but technological progress & convenience.

Getting rid of staff completely is certainly not the right idea, but being more generalised or roaming/flexible station staff is better.

That’s a good point.

The rail staff travel website is clunky in the extreme and for some routes doesn’t give you an option to download an e-ticket direct to your phone, forcing you to collect a paper ticket from a TVM. Absolutely ridiculous and therefore takes twice as long as buying the old fashioned way! Hence I will still buy from a ticket office where possible despite having the ability to buy online.

You'd still have to go to the station regardless (collect from a TVM via a ToD) or to the ticket office, so it doesn't take twice as long. For people who already didn't have a local station with a regularly staffed ticket office, going online was a major plus since it went live just a few years ago. Is a bit clunky though.

 

[WAB]

That aside as shown in London, Labour are no more supportive of ticket offices than the Conservatives, under Mr Kahn all the tube offices have gone and he proposed to shut the overground ones too!

This is a photo of the London Overground map showing ticket sales in 2022. Very low numbers across the board. Diamond Geezer has looked in detail at the figures, but the fourth-busiest LO ticket office (Enfield Town) only sells an average of 28 tickets per day. Somewhere like Hackney Wick will only sell a ticket on two in every five days. Most travellers would not miss them, especially as staffing levels are generally pretty good, even at odd hours.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

This is a photo of the London Overground map showing ticket sales in 2022. Very low numbers across the board. Diamond Geezer has looked in detail at the figures, but the fourth-busiest LO ticket office (Enfield Town) only sells an average of 28 tickets per day. Somewhere like Hackney Wick will only sell a ticket on two in every five days. Most travellers would not miss them, especially as staffing levels are generally pretty good, even at odd hours.

Even given the preference in London for Contactless/Oyster, I’m astonished by how low those are. Are there figures available for ticket offices outside London? At my local station between Reading and Didcot Parkway, it’s not unusual to see at least half a dozen tickets sold when waiting for only 10-15 minutes in the morning (usually post-peak).

 

[WAB]

Was there uproar when they closed the travel centres? Another victim of progress I guess?

Was there ever a formal closure programme for these? Most advance bookings are made online these days - making the journey specially to collect tickets when you buy from your phone or PC is an odd concept.

On my patch, the new King's Cross had a travel centre-style set-up in a single room with separate sections for advance and on-the-day travel; this year, the space is now half-used for the new family waiting room, with a single set of desks for all bookings. Edinburgh lost theirs during Covid, but I recall that the additional staffing in the booking office meant there was very little concern over this. Leeds still has a travel centre last time I looked but I rarely see anyone, passengers or staff, in there. It could do with being ripped out and replaced with a single set of travel centre-style desks for all tickets, taking the queue out of the concourse. Stevenage went during Covid too. Can't really think of any others which are split on the Eastern Region these days, or have been in the last decade.

Even given the preference in London for Contactless/Oyster, I’m astonished by how low those are. Are there figures available for ticket offices outside London? At my local station between Reading and Didcot Parkway, it’s not unusual to see at least half a dozen tickets sold when waiting for only 10-15 minutes in the morning (usually post-peak).

Most Londoners use an Oyster card or a pass; most are IT literate and book online for longer journeys or rebook at the point they switch to paper tickets (e.g., King's Cross, Euston etc.) There are some FOIs for some TOCs on the forum somewhere. Some very low figures in surprising places.

 

[Gaelan]

Platform staff are cheaper, as there’s less training involved. Booking office is a relatively skilled role, so attracts a higher salary.

Of course, they can't have it both ways: if closing ticket offices is a non-issue because we can get the same help from platform staff, they need to give platform staff the same training as ticket office staff.

Incidentally, my own list of reasons for using a ticket office recently: ticket machine broken, long queue at ticket machine, want split tickets and ticket machine doesn't sell from other stations, want advice on what to do during disruption (i.e. want permission to board a service other than "next on same TOC"), want to change an existing ticket. All of these have alternatives in some situations, but many are less convenient, many don't work on some/most TOCs or have other major caveats, and they're certainly not all in one obvious place.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The two ticket offices I've used most in recent times (ie a significant proportion of the times when I'm starting a non-routine non-local journey there, or when I'm trying to sort out an advance booking - especially to start from another station, or if I need a PlusBus or other non-standard item) are Waterloo and Brighton. On the latest occasions at each there were lengthy queues; in fact I can't remember ever seeing either of them without a good supply of patrons. Others I've used lately are Blackfriars and St Pancras, and both had a steady stream of people, though in neither case did I have to queue for very long. I also used the ticket office at Crewe recently - luckily, since I'd have paid more if using the machine (and without the ticket office I wouldn't even have known the cheaper ticket existed).

At various places, I've had to use a ticket office because the machine wouldn't accept my card, though the ticket office would. I've also had to use a ticket office when a machine wouldn't take cash.

And this is besides just needing general help/advice about my journey - and at smaller stations the only obvious place to go to find staff is the ticket office. A significant proportion of my interactions with ticket office staff at smaller stations doesn't involve buying a ticket (hence won't show on statistics); but they're the one obvious (indeed only) place to find someone.

Compare the disaster of some LU stations now, where there was a promise that ticket office staff would come out from behind the window but still be there waiting to help - I see loads of visitors and tourists ending up floundering, precisely because there's no-one/nowhere obvious to go for help. If the promise that the staff from the ticket offices would always be there anyway, but just outside the office, were true, then they might as well stay in the one place anyway so you can find them. But that was a lie; closing the offices was a way of avoiding having as many staff on hand - there's often no meaningful replacement for the support you could previously get from the ticket offices.

Of course, they can't have it both ways: if closing ticket offices is a non-issue because we can get the same help from platform staff, they need to give platform staff the same training as ticket office staff.

Indeed - but we all know that won't happen.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

The overground figures are I would strongly expect replicated across many other stations in London. I haven’t bought a ticket for a within London journey for five years or so, and I make 2-3 return journeys each week. The issue for London is the number of people who assume that, because they can tap in, they can also tap out at their destination. I for one will welcome the continued extension of contactless ticketing across the south east.

 

[Scott1]

I can already see how this will go on our patch. We have a large number of stations that have only 1 multiskilled colleague. They clean the toilets, platforms etc, lock and unlock the station, man the ticket office, and at some stations dispatch trains. Since they are the only person at these stations the only way this proposal can save any money is to get rid and leave the station unmanned. How else could this proposal save money at these sites?

 

[ChewChewTrain]

The two ticket offices I've used most in recent times (ie a significant proportion of the times when I'm starting a non-routine non-local journey there, or when I'm trying to sort out an advance booking - especially to start from another station, or if I need a PlusBus or other non-standard item) are Waterloo and Brighton. On the latest occasions at each there were lengthy queues; in fact I can't remember ever seeing either of them without a good supply of patrons. Others I've used lately are Blackfriars and St Pancras, and both had a steady stream of people, though in neither case did I have to queue for very long. I also used the ticket office at Crewe recently - luckily, since I'd have paid more if using the machine (and without the ticket office I wouldn't even have known the cheaper ticket existed).

Compare the disaster of some LU stations now, where there was a promise that ticket office staff would come out from behind the window but still be there waiting to help - I see loads of visitors and tourists ending up floundering, precisely because there's no-one/nowhere obvious to go for help. If the promise that the staff from the ticket offices would always be there anyway, but just outside the office, were true, then they might as well stay in the one place anyway so you can find them. But that was a lie; closing the offices was a way of avoiding having as many staff on hand - there's often no meaningful replacement for the support you could previously get from the ticket offices.

I can’t be the only one who saw that coming the second they first learnt of said promise. These newly liberated staff were going to be actively helping people use the machines, as I recall.

 

[jagardner1984]

I think this reminds me rather of the attempts to starve the post office Network of its TV Licence / DVLA work by actively incentivising other methods, and then acting surprised when the demand falls away - which was of course the original goal.

Progress is good of course - and must say a lot of ticket offices to my eyes haven’t helped themselves by seeming actively hostile to the public at times, and spoiling the good work done by many.

But rather like the guard question - I do worry that once the principle is established you can have a station where someone is “walking around generally helping” - that when that person is sick or unavailable - there will simply be no one there. As much as I’ve used a TWM or a self service checkout so I’m part of the problem - I do worry we are making a world in which for example older single people may go through a day without speaking to a human being, but rather barked at by a series of ineffective machines. There is a real epidemic of loneliness in this country which is not to be ignored, and the act of smiling at someone or seeing they need an extra moment or a little explanation is something to be celebrated, not dismissed. Personally - and perhaps I have skin in the game as someone rapidly headed towards my autumn years (!) I’m happy to pay a few pence more at the supermarket or the train station for someone to have that interaction. I’m not sure where the path of ever greater “efficiency” goes - perhaps we don’t bother with platforms and just leave some pallets of paving slabs around for people to pile up, survival of the fittest ? Save some money on toilets by planting a few hedges ? Most people have a phone now, perhaps we can save on station lighting and tell people to use their phone torch ?

On a darker note, I wonder how many ticket office staff have noticed someone walking through a little detached, avoiding eye contact, heading to the end of the platform, and asked if they are ok, or alerted someone. I suspect that number is not zero. I suspect there are families who are supremely grateful someone somewhere spotted another human, precious to them, who really needed that eye contact and that hello.

I think we all know this is not the end of reduced staffing on the railways; and maybe that’s needed to retain the current network. But it isn’t without consequence.

 

[islandmonkey]

About a year and a half ago I hopped out from the Night Riviera at Penzance and wanted a day Cornwall Ranger. Found out that I had to get it from a ticket office only. How will I be able to get something like this now (without the unnecessary measure of having them posted)?

 

[Horizon22]

The two ticket offices I've used most in recent times (ie a significant proportion of the times when I'm starting a non-routine non-local journey there, or when I'm trying to sort out an advance booking - especially to start from another station, or if I need a PlusBus or other non-standard item) are Waterloo and Brighton. On the latest occasions at each there were lengthy queues; in fact I can't remember ever seeing either of them without a good supply of patrons. Others I've used lately are Blackfriars and St Pancras, and both had a steady stream of people, though in neither case did I have to queue for very long. I also used the ticket office at Crewe recently - luckily, since I'd have paid more if using the machine (and without the ticket office I wouldn't even have known the cheaper ticket existed).

At various places, I've had to use a ticket office because the machine wouldn't accept my card, though the ticket office would. I've also had to use a ticket office when a machine wouldn't take cash.

And this is besides just needing general help/advice about my journey - and at smaller stations the only obvious place to go to find staff is the ticket office. A significant proportion of my interactions with ticket office staff at smaller stations doesn't involve buying a ticket (hence won't show on statistics); but they're the one obvious (indeed only) place to find someone.

Compare the disaster of some LU stations now, where there was a promise that ticket office staff would come out from behind the window but still be there waiting to help - I see loads of visitors and tourists ending up floundering, precisely because there's no-one/nowhere obvious to go for help. If the promise that the staff from the ticket offices would always be there anyway, but just outside the office, were true, then they might as well stay in the one place anyway so you can find them. But that was a lie; closing the offices was a way of avoiding having as many staff on hand - there's often no meaningful replacement for the support you could previously get from the ticket offices.



Indeed - but we all know that won't happen.

Major Zone 1 London Terminals and large hubs are probably the least likely to lose their ticket offices. Maybe a reduction in staffing, but as you say they are still well frequented, often by tourists (foreign or otherwise).

 

[skyhigh]

About a year and a half ago I hopped out from the Night Riviera at Penzance and wanted a day Cornwall Ranger. Found out that I had to get it from a ticket office only. How will I be able to get something like this now (without the unnecessary measure of having them posted)?

Sell them at TVMs (like Northern do) or allow them for sale as e-tickets.

 

[islandmonkey]

Sell them at TVMs (like Northern do) or allow them for sale as e-tickets.

Having them as an e-ticket would be super awesome. Never use paper tickets now. Would rather split a cross London journey to avoid having them.

 

[sor]

The thing with banks is that online banking IS preferable to many people. Why go to a bank and queue to do something I can do myself now?

For good financial advice, if you need that, an independent advisor is the way.

the thing with banks is that they made online banking really good before deciding to close the branches (due to the natural drop in usage as people moved to the objectively superior system) - unless you need to deal with cash (or with a bank that still doesn't offer the ability to use your phone's camera, cheques). Plus there's always the post office, depending on your bank.

Meanwhile the government has done nothing about the many issues with rail ticketing that closures will only exacerbate.

About a year and a half ago I hopped out from the Night Riviera at Penzance and wanted a day Cornwall Ranger. Found out that I had to get it from a ticket office only. How will I be able to get something like this now (without the unnecessary measure of having them posted)?

Also, the Devon and Cornwall Railcard where you must apply at a local station and show proof of address. Will they be expecting people to traipse to Plymouth or something.

want advice on what to do during disruption (i.e. want permission to board a service other than "next on same TOC")

and this could end up being the sort of hidden cost/benefit that bean counters and consultants don't see. I had this too last year - my advance ticketed train was "cancelled" (actually it was started further up the line). The station staff suggested I get the train that was about to arrive as it would allow me to connect to the original train (and the guard agreed when he came round).

Net cost £0 to the railway, instead of a nice fat delay repay claim had I waited over an hour for the next train.

 

[skyhigh]

Also, the Devon and Cornwall Railcard where you must apply at a local station and show proof of address. Will they be expecting people to traipse to Plymouth or something.

Or... They could be sold online? Like the Dales Railcard is.

There are (in my opinion) plenty of good reasons to keep competent staff but there's no need to come up with spurious concerns that have already been addressed elsewhere.

Even if ticket offices remained online application would still be more convenient for many people.

 

[sor]

Or... They could be sold online? Like the Dales Railcard is.

There are (in my opinion) plenty of good reasons to keep competent staff but there's no need to come up with spurious concerns that have already been addressed elsewhere.

Even if ticket offices remained online application would still be more convenient for many people.

if you'd read my entire post, you'd see that is the point I am making. It's not "spurious". The glacial pace of railway ticketing technology suggests these problems won't be resolved before any aggressive closure plans come in - and it wouldn't surprise me if they just tried to axe the railcard instead.

It appears the S&C railcard doesn't require proof of address, rather the delivery address is the proof. the D&C one makes you show the usual combo of driving licence and bank statement or whatever.

 

[yorksrob]

The only hope is that the consultation process is drawn out until we are rid of this dreadful Government.

 

[Iskra]

The only time I ever really need to use a ticket office is for the Northern Newspaper Offer tickets, but online and TVM systems are developing apace, so I’ve no doubt this will be overcome in time.

Provided ticket office staff are moved into visible customer service roles, I can’t see what the issue is and I think this would be an improvement for most passengers.

I do think that whatever the plan is, they should clearly communicate it and get on with it so that those affected know where they stand and are not left in a prolonged position of uncertainty, as that is unfair.

 

[Moonshot]

I expect most of us can see the need for reform in this area.

It’s striking that the RMT have been a good deal more pragmatic about ticket office closures in the past (eg on LU) than the current rhetoric would suggest. I suspect the government’s unnecessarily combative approach hasn’t helped matters here.

That's a very valid point.....and as it happens I was reading a report into the present day situation from the passenger perspective. Makes for interesting reading, but in a nutshell the virtually complete eradication of offices on the underground has not lead to anything like the doom scenarios predicted. Also I notice in one of your earlier posts about you yourself buying priv tickets from a booking office. I myself buy mine from a conductor in the mess room whenever I need to. It does give them a bit of commission

 

[miklcct]

I have no choice but to use a ticket office to buy my season ticket, as they can't be bought from ticket machines, and postal delivery is the only fulfilment method when bought online which I can't use because of postal delay.

Can anyone explain if season tickets are being abolished if ticket offices are closed?

 

[Mat17]

TVMs aren't very reliable in my experience, they often go offline. Looks like it'll be phone tickets all the way in future. I don't like this constant push to have everyone surgically attached to their phones 24/7 - we are not far off the point where you won't be able to do anything without one. A sad day indeed.

 

[Smidster]

Personally this is one of those things that falls into the "inevitable" category - Ultimately there comes a point where you just can't justify the expense for something that is simply not being well enough used to justify that investment.

Just as with the banks closing branches - it is bad for those people impacted, and some do have a real detriment, but overwhelming majority don't notice

The horrible thing is that the RMT will now punish punters even more for something that they will not and can not "win" on.

 

[Mat17]

Of course, they can't have it both ways: if closing ticket offices is a non-issue because we can get the same help from platform staff, they need to give platform staff the same training as ticket office staff.

Incidentally, my own list of reasons for using a ticket office recently: ticket machine broken, long queue at ticket machine, want split tickets and ticket machine doesn't sell from other stations, want advice on what to do during disruption (i.e. want permission to board a service other than "next on same TOC"), want to change an existing ticket. All of these have alternatives in some situations, but many are less convenient, many don't work on some/most TOCs or have other major caveats, and they're certainly not all in one obvious place.

Totally agree. I have used TVMs when required but sometimes it's hard to know a ticket's validity if it's not a straight forward single or return and it's comforting to be able to ask a staff member what is and isn't allowed on a ticket before purchasing. I know many people one here perhaps have an encyclopedic knowledge of ticketing types, but I'm more of an occasional traveller who rarely makes long distance journeys or out one way and back another day type trips. So for me it is reassuring.

 

[Tw99]

Someone mentioned Reading West upthread, they’re still in the process of spending some millions there to build a completely new ticket office. Wonder if it will ever be used…

 

[Parallel]

It will be interesting to see what happens at the likes of Oxford Parkway - when I was last there, there was a member of staff set up in what was very much a help desk, who was able to sell some tickets using a tablet if I remember correctly - I wonder if this is the model other stations will be soon to adopt, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing in my opinion.