Ticket office closures

[43066]

You'd still have to go to the station regardless (collect from a TVM via a ToD) or to the ticket office, so it doesn't take twice as long. For people who already didn't have a local station with a regularly staffed ticket office, going online was a major plus since it went live just a few years ago. Is a bit clunky though.

It absolutely does in some situations: for instance buying a ticket for one leg of a journey through a London terminal where you need to interchange. You have to go out of your way to look for a TVM (and hope there aren’t queues). It completely defeats the object of buying online: why can’t all tickets just be downloaded to your phone?

The site is indeed very clunky and it often takes several attempts to complete the transaction. Overall it’s disappointing as technology is supposed to improve things whereas objectively speaking this doesn’t, and it’s often more convenient to buy at the local ticket office (accepting some don’t have those).

The horrible thing is that the RMT will now punish punters even more for something that they will not and can not "win" on.

But you say that about every aspect of the wider dispute, seemingly with no acknowledgement that the government’s unnecessarily belligerent approach has directly caused much of the disruption: newsflash, they aren’t on the side of punters either…

 

[island]

This is all based on push polls where passengers allegedly say they want staff to be out and about helping and not behind ticket windows, because the question is biased.

The model of staff in the booking hall helping customers use ticket machines, and issuing themselves from tablet/phone and portable printer, can work in the right environment.

Sadly the main implementation I’ve seen of closed ticket office, at Gatwick Airport station, is nothing of the sort. Staffing is limited to two unskilled Ontrak people, one person to shout that you should use contactless, sometimes someone extolling the virtues of Gatwick Express, and one actually skilled ticket office person who gets pulled every which way to help with machines, meaning the few people who genuinely need a ticket desk for something such as a Railcard issuance wind up with a massive wait.

 

[Bald Rick]

About a year and a half ago I hopped out from the Night Riviera at Penzance and wanted a day Cornwall Ranger. Found out that I had to get it from a ticket office only. How will I be able to get something like this now (without the unnecessary measure of having them posted)?

You can buy one on the train (According to NRE)

Re Priv - all the new NR ‘Priv’ tickets have to be bought as e tickets, and seems to be working.

 

[island]

Re Priv - all the new NR ‘Priv’ tickets have to be bought as e tickets, and seems to be working.

How does that work for tickets to Miseryrail/Southeastern where most stations still don’t support e-tickets?

 

[yorksrob]

In West Yorkshire, the majority of stations don't have ticket offices, whilst the big ones (Leeds, Bradford's, Skipton etc) do. This works well enough and could be a pragmatic way forward.

Unfortunately we'll get nothing so pragmatic and end up with a cuts inspired balls up. The fact that this has apparently happened at Gatwick airport of all places confirms my suspicion.

 

[43066]

You can buy one on the train (According to NRE)

Re Priv - all the new NR ‘Priv’ tickets have to be bought as e tickets, and seems to be working.

As per @island ‘s comment - not all are available as e tickets and it doesn’t offer blanket coverage! If it did there wouldn’t be such an issue.

Buying online only to faff about queuing for a
TVM and then printing it out is bonkers.

 

[Iskra]

This is all based on push polls where passengers allegedly say they want staff to be out and about helping and not behind ticket windows, because the question is biased.

The model of staff in the booking hall helping customers use ticket machines, and issuing themselves from tablet/phone and portable printer, can work in the right environment.

Sadly the main implementation I’ve seen of closed ticket office, at Gatwick Airport station, is nothing of the sort. Staffing is limited to two unskilled Ontrak people, one person to shout that you should use contactless, sometimes someone extolling the virtues of Gatwick Express, and one actually skilled ticket office person who gets pulled every which way to help with machines, meaning the few people who genuinely need a ticket desk for something such as a Railcard issuance wind up with a massive wait.

I doubt it’s just polls; the ever dwindling ticket office income versus the cost of staffing them is probably the main factor.

In West Yorkshire, the majority of stations don't have ticket offices, whilst the big ones (Leeds, Bradford's, Skipton etc) do. This works well enough and could be a pragmatic way forward.

Unfortunately we'll get nothing so pragmatic and end up with a cuts inspired balls up. The fact that this has apparently happened at Gatwick airport of all places confirms my suspicion.

I agree that they should be retained at the largest stations, as well as airport/port stations with a decent passenger volume.

 

[irish_rail]

This is all based on push polls where passengers allegedly say they want staff to be out and about helping and not behind ticket windows, because the question is biased.

The model of staff in the booking hall helping customers use ticket machines, and issuing themselves from tablet/phone and portable printer, can work in the right environment.

Sadly the main implementation I’ve seen of closed ticket office, at Gatwick Airport station, is nothing of the sort. Staffing is limited to two unskilled Ontrak people, one person to shout that you should use contactless, sometimes someone extolling the virtues of Gatwick Express, and one actually skilled ticket office person who gets pulled every which way to help with machines, meaning the few people who genuinely need a ticket desk for something such as a Railcard issuance wind up with a massive wait.

Just like when passengers were asked if they'd like to have drinks brought to their seats and hey presto the buffets where history. And are they any better off now waiting 3 hours for trolley to appear??!!!

And what difference is a change of government in Jan 2025 likely to make? Assume you mean Labour then Kier Starmer has already made it clear there is going to be no magic money tree.

That aside as shown in London, Labour are no more supportive of ticket offices than the Conservatives, under Mr Kahn all the tube offices have gone and he proposed to shut the overground ones too!

No magic money tree is needed. Reaslitically rail worker demands are the lowest of all public sector workers. 4 percent with no strings attached would most likely be accepted, and is perfectly affordable in a world of 8 percent inflation. Its the current Tory ideological stance that is preventing this particular dispute from being settled.

Chester station is run by Transport for Wales, not a DfT TOC, but I understand the ticket office there is to close as part of a refresh of the concourse area.
Staff will be redeployed to assist passengers, use ticket machines etc.
Merseyrail is the only TOC which maintains ticket offices at most (not quite all) of its stations, has next to no ticket machines and no truck with e-tickets.

Interesting. Chester is a busy well used station. If that's going then I'd hazard my local patch Plymouth must be vulnerable. Makes you wander what will be left? On WR , probably just Paddington Reading Bristol and Cardiff.

 

[stephen rp]

This is a photo of the London Overground map showing ticket sales in 2022. Very low numbers across the board. Diamond Geezer has looked in detail at the figures, but the fourth-busiest LO ticket office (Enfield Town) only sells an average of 28 tickets per day. Somewhere like Hackney Wick will only sell a ticket on two in every five days. Most travellers would not miss them, especially as staffing levels are generally pretty good, even at odd hours.

London's different. Season tickets, Oyster, contactless. The rest of the country just doesn't have that integrated system.

This is all based on push polls where passengers allegedly say they want staff to be out and about helping and not behind ticket windows, because the question is biased.

The model of staff in the booking hall helping customers use ticket machines, and issuing themselves from tablet/phone and portable printer, can work in the right environment.

Sadly the main implementation I’ve seen of closed ticket office, at Gatwick Airport station, is nothing of the sort. Staffing is limited to two unskilled Ontrak people, one person to shout that you should use contactless, sometimes someone extolling the virtues of Gatwick Express, and one actually skilled ticket office person who gets pulled every which way to help with machines, meaning the few people who genuinely need a ticket desk for something such as a Railcard issuance wind up with a massive wait.

Manchester Airport has big queues for the ticket office to avoid the machines, so have a staff member at the machines asking what people want and working the machines for people.

 

[FenMan]

I doubt it’s just polls; the ever dwindling ticket office income versus the cost of staffing them is probably the main factor.

Something that's not in the public domain is the proportion of the 12% transactions at ticket offices that are for "simple" on the day walk-up tickets e.g. a pro-union friend of mine always uses Aldershot's ticket office although he's only buying One Day Travelcards, day returns to Frimley and the like.

 

[Iskra]

Just like when passengers were asked if they'd like to have drinks brought to their seats and hey presto the buffets where history. And are they any better off now waiting 3 hours for trolley to appear??!!!


No magic money tree is needed. Reaslitically rail worker demands are the lowest of all public sector workers. 4 percent with no strings attached would most likely be accepted, and is perfectly affordable in a world of 8 percent inflation. Its the current Tory ideological stance that is preventing this particular dispute from being settled.


Interesting. Chester is a busy well used station. If that's going then I'd hazard my local patch Plymouth must be vulnerable. Makes you wander what will be left? On WR , probably just Paddington Reading Bristol and Cardiff.

It doesn’t matter what rail worker demands are, if the job the demands are for is no longer justified itself.

 

[43066]

It doesn’t matter what rail worker demands are, if the job the demands are for is no longer justified itself.

Really?! Train drivers are still needed last I checked. I haven’t had a rise since 2019…

But of course you’re right, the ideology of the hardest right government since WW2 has nothing to do with the current situation on the railway.

 

[Iskra]

Really?! Train drivers are still needed last I checked. I haven’t had a rise since 2019…

But of course you’re right, the ideology of the hardest right government since WW2 has nothing to do with the current situation on the railway.

This is a thread about ticket offices.

 

[43066]

No magic money tree is needed. Reaslitically rail worker demands are the lowest of all public sector workers. 4 percent with no strings attached would most likely be accepted, and is perfectly affordable in a world of 8 percent inflation. Its the current Tory ideological stance that is preventing this particular dispute from being settled.

Absolutely.

The reform of ticket offices will almost certainly make things generally worse for passengers, who will continue to be fleeced for tickets - any savings will not be passed on to them. So you wonder why they’re cheerleading it!

 

[Bald Rick]

London's different.

Indeed it is. The number of people using the stations is much higher than most of the rest of the country.

The interesting stats would be the % of passengers at each station using the ticket office to buy a ticket. Bushey for example - one of the highest on that map - the number of tickets bought there is less than 1% of all people who use the station.

 

[Iskra]

London's different. Season tickets, Oyster, contactless. The rest of the country just doesn't have that integrated system.


Manchester Airport has big queues for the ticket office to avoid the machines, so have a staff member at the machines asking what people want and working the machines for people.

There’s usually only one ticket window open though when I’m there, which falsely exasperates the queue and then it only takes one customer to slow everyone else down in that queue, and I think those people are quite common at airports.

 

[43066]

This is a thread about ticket offices.

The poster you quoted was referring to rail workers in general, not just ticket office staff.

Indeed it is. The number of people using the stations is much higher than most of the rest of the country.

The interesting stats would be the % of passengers at each station using the ticket office to buy a ticket. Bushey for example - one of the highest on that map - the number of tickets bought there is less than 1% of all people who use the station.

Virtually none, and reforms clearly do make sense. Especially in London where you have contactless and Oyster (but increasingly just Contactless). The issue is that what we end up with will likely be a lower quality service, because the people driving the reforms aren’t remotely interested in improving the railway, just in reducing spending on public services.

 

[michael74]

Ticket offices at a few of the larger stations are all that is needed, anything else, do on line at TVMs or from a guard.

Not all trains have a guard, and not all routes where there is a guard is a revenue guard (see SWR) and often where there is a guard able to sell tickets, due to the stopping pattern said guard is unable to get through the whole train.

 

[johntea]

This morning I assisted two delightful ladies at a Northern TVM

All they wanted to do was obtain a return to Meadowhall for the pair of them in one transaction but were completely and utterly stuck until I turned up and assisted

At one point they even thought ‘PlusBus’ was actually a discount they could knock off the price because they had a bus pass

In the end I probably managed to save them a few quid as a Northern Duo option popped up after managing to add 2 Adults rather than singular transactions for each one

A member of staff would have probably worked all this out in about a minute compared to the 10 minutes of confusion the poor passengers were going through

 

[Towers]

Someone mentioned Reading West upthread, they’re still in the process of spending some millions there to build a completely new ticket office. Wonder if it will ever be used…

Either way the far bigger advantage of the building works will be the gateline, which is much needed here. There is already I believe a ‘man in a hut’ facility regarding ticket sales during the AM peak.

As far as redeployment of staff is concerned, it seems to be a characteristic of major stations across the network that they are almost without fail short of dispatchers, gateline staff, customer assistance staff and so on. If redeployment is handled effectively we’ll see former tix office staff released from a dying job behind a glass window and trained to carry out a multitude of other roles, delivering a much needed increase in general staffing across the station, as well as providing them with employment which has a far better long term outlook. As many have said, this is an inevitable change. I only hope that the unions choose to play an active, positive part in the process rather than resisting it until the bitter end.

 

[irish_rail]

This morning I assisted two delightful ladies at a Northern TVM

All they wanted to do was obtain a return to Meadowhall for the pair of them in one transaction but were completely and utterly stuck until I turned up and assisted

At one point they even thought ‘PlusBus’ was actually a discount they could knock off the price because they had a bus pass

In the end I probably managed to save them a few quid as a Northern Duo option popped up after managing to add 2 Adults rather than singular transactions for each one

A member of staff would have probably worked all this out in about a minute compared to the 10 minutes of confusion the poor passengers were going through

Makes you wander if the whole thing is a ploy to trick people out of their money to help generate extra revenue. I struggle with ticket machines and I work on the railway! Also, hygiene is an issue, I do hope there will be someone cleaning the screen every half hour or so, especially as Covid hasn't gone away despite what the Gov would like us to believe!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Virtually none, and reforms clearly do make sense. Especially in London where you have contactless and Oyster (but increasingly just Contactless). The issue is that what we end up with will likely be a lower quality service, because the people driving the reforms aren’t remotely interested in improving the railway, just in reducing spending on public services.

Under the Mayor Burnham of Greater Manchester rail aspiration project, has he made any official comment on the matter of booking offices in the TfGM administered area as part of that aspiration?

 

[43066]

If redeployment is handled effectively we’ll see former tix office staff released from a dying job behind a glass window and trained to carry out a multitude of other roles, delivering a much needed increase in general staffing across the station, as well as providing them with employment which has a far better long term outlook.

Exactly as hasn’t happened on LU, you mean?

I have absolutely zero faith that’s what these reforms are intended to achieve.

Under the Mayor Burnham of Greater Manchester rail aspiration project, has he made any official comment on the matter of booking offices in the TfGM administered area as part of that aspiration?

I can’t even bring myself to listen to anything the “Mayor of London” has to say (at least since Boris Johnson left the post), so I’m afraid you’re asking the wrong person .

 

[WelshBluebird]

Or... They could be sold online? Like the Dales Railcard is.

Of course they could be. But the point is they aren't. Just like the Bristol area Freedom travelpass tickets and many many other examples. If the industry (or more specifically the government and DfT) want to close ticket offices then they need to make all tickets available by alternative means first, not just most tickets.

 

[Mabs]

I work in the Ticket office. Its not true that only old people need help and advice buying a ticket.

Lots of younger people also need help and the amount of times people buying the wrong tickets and me having to sort it out or the customers not tapping in/out correctly in London or not knowing how to collect a ticket isn't recorded in their figures.

If they force the staff out, in my opinion it will make the service worse. For example i cover mostly an area that is 20 square metres.

If I'm forced outside, I will now cover an area that is 1000 square metres. Good luck finding me modern customer.

I work part time in the Railway and part time for TFL. The proposal is 30k for the railway in the new multi tasking role.

I am already doing that role in TFL and its 40k now for full time and expecting a 5k pay rise soon.

There is a chance if I don't get the train driver role within 12 months il apply to go full time with TFL.

Lots of staff I spoke to said they'll leave aswell.

Staff presence is deterrent to anti social behaviour and moves weirdos hanging around late evening following women.

Female customers feel safer having staff around and they usually sit near my ticket office rather than waiting alone in the platform.

Anyway the Government will learn the hard way but only once the damage is done.

 

[davidknibb]

The ticket machine at my local station has been placed precisely to get the midday sun shining on it. Impossible to read the screen.

 

[Mabs]

According to the Guardian article 1 in 8 tickets are bought at a ticket office. One can see why redeployment to helping people might be better use of the resource.

What about when customers that buy the wrong ticket, need to exchange or refund a ticket.

Advice on routes, ticket types, customers not tapping in/out correctly that needs sorting, not knowing how or where to collect their tickets.

When staff are forced out. Good luck finding them in a area that is 1000 square meters. Staff will just hide or stay in their cars in the car park.

 

[Towers]

I work in the Ticket office. Its not true that only old people need help and advice buying a ticket.
Lots of staff I spoke to said they'll leave aswell.

Staff presence is deterrent to anti social behaviour and moves weirdos hanging around late evening following women.

Female customers feel safer having staff around and they usually sit near my ticket office rather than waiting alone in the platform.

With respect, I’d question how many ticket office staff are in the habit of leaving their office to come out and deal with ‘weirdos’ or anti social behaviour, particularly ‘late evening’. Admittedly they may call for assistance I suppose, but given the huge focus on conflict avoidance that most TOCs follow, I’d imagine placing oneself directly into harm’s way might be actively discouraged? However, if said staff were already employed to floor walk, or man the gateline or platforms, the deterrent is already in place!

 

[Mabs]

With respect, I’d question how many ticket office staff are in the habit of leaving their office to come out and deal with ‘weirdos’ or anti social behaviour, particularly ‘late evening’. Admittedly they may call for assistance I suppose, but given the huge focus on conflict avoidance that most TOCs follow, I’d imagine placing oneself directly into harm’s way might be actively discouraged? However, if said staff were already employed to floor walk, or man the gateline or platforms, the deterrent is already in place!

In my station weirdos know not to hang around when I'm around. I'm loud and tell them to F*** off from here.

 

[Towers]

When staff are forced out. Good luck finding them in a area that is 1000 square meters. Staff will just hide or stay in their cars in the car park.

Staff found staying in their cars when they should be working can fully expect to be dismissed, I would imagine!

In my station weirdos know not to hang around when I'm around. I'm loud and tell them to F*** off from here.

Fair play to you sir!