Minimum Service Levels Bill receives Royal Assent

[Dave91131]

Whether you're unemployed applying for benefits, employed and in a union or want a charitable organisation to support you, there's one underlying problem. If you own a car worth £15,000 that you're not really using, no one's going to force you to sell it or even ask about it. You might even get a chairty giving you £400 for a new washing machine, if yours breaks and you have no savings to buy a new one. On the other hand, if you have no car, live in an area with poor public transport links and have £1500 in savings you're then expected to use that £1500 for food, utility bills etc. and if you instead use it to buy a second hand car, you probably have any applications for help refused.

There are very few people who *need* a £15,000 car. For many it's primary purpose is not even a car, it's a status symbol *look what I've got*. Most who have one on the drive will never actually *own* it anyway; there'll lease it for several hundreds of pounds per month for a set period then start all over again with another new one. Utterly irresponsible, pathetic and deserving of precisely zero sympathy.

Breaking a strike is a choice and choices have consequences, if you choose to break a strike be prepared for people to call you a scab.

And similarly, if you choose to call the wrong person a scab be prepared to require medical attention.

 

[Bantamzen]

People blaming the unions, is this just the rail unions or the 14 health unions too? And all the teaching and university unions? And the fire service union? And the Civil service unions?

All the unions currently in dispute. They all knew this legislation was on the cards, and that escalation of disputes would aid it's passing through the Houses.

We are not talking about something someone has no control over here. It's not like racial slurs or comments about some other protected characteristic.


Breaking a strike is a choice and choices have consequences, if you choose to break a strike be prepared for people to call you a scab.

No, there is no excuse to ever use that phrase. Period. End of.

 

[Trothy]

No, there is no excuse to ever use that phrase. Period. End of.

There is. Despite your posturing it's not hate speech. It's an emotive word, because strikebreaking is an emotive issue.

 

[Facing Back]

So is there a link to this bill so we can see it in its finished guise?

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/58-03/0222/220222.pdf

 

[Recessio]

The reality is in a skilled profession such as a train driver, the company cannot physically sack everyone who refuses to cross a picket line without completely destroying the train service.

That didn't stop Ronald Reagan...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profe...ollers_Organization_(1968)#August_1981_strike

 

[greatkingrat]

But as I mentioned up thread, there is still a right for union members not to cross picket lines and the fact that upwards of 90 percent of drivers continue to vote for strike action , suggests at best you would get maybe 10 percent of the workforce prepared to cross the picket line. Although at my depot, I can only think of perhaps one driver who would cross said picket and I believe that would be similar across the country (with possible exceptions in the south east at certain depots).

Not any more. Under the terms of the Bill, if you are given a notice requiring you to work and you do not, the company can take disciplinary action against you. Whether there is a picket line or not is irrelevant.

 

[choochoochoo]

That didn't stop Ronald Reagan...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profe...ollers_Organization_(1968)#August_1981_strike

Didn't Ronny have the military fill in to keep things from grinding to a complete halt ?

Don't think you can get the military to come in to drive trains.

 

[Bantamzen]

There is. Despite your posturing it's not hate speech. It's an emotive word, because strikebreaking is an emotive issue.

Are you being serious? I'm sorry but if you can't see why this isn't a inflammatory word, and why it's use should not be encouraged then I really have nothing more to say. If this kind of thing is still prevalent in the railway industry then maybe Its not the best idea to publicise it. I know where I work its use would almost certainly lead to a one way trip to the local Jobcentre.

 

[Bald Rick]

The reality is in a skilled profession such as a train driver, the company cannot physically sack everyone who refuses to cross a picket line without completely destroying the train service.

But the train service is ‘destroyed’ by strike action anyway.

Let’s not forget that BR was on the brink of sacking every driver in 1982 - I know someone who printed some of the dismissal letters!

What will be interesting to see is what Labour do with this if they do get in. My opinion is that they will repeal it, but (assuming that the dispute is still ongoing then) it will be done concurrent with significant ‘leaning’ on ASLEF to stop the dispute.

 

[baz962]

But the train service is ‘destroyed’ by strike action anyway.

Let’s not forget that BR was on the brink of sacking every driver in 1982 - I know someone who printed some of the dismissal letters!

What will be interesting to see is what Labour do with this if they do get in. My opinion is that they will repeal it, but (assuming that the dispute is still ongoing then) it will be done concurrent with significant ‘leaning’ on ASLEF to stop the dispute.

Strike action destroys it for days. Sacking every driver. I wouldn't even know what to guess at . Ten years to train enough drivers.

 

[A0]

Hopefully before it goes through the Tories will be out of power it's just a attack on the working class.

I'm not sure train drivers on £60k a year are "working class".

 

[Confused52]

The final version of the Bill (I think) is here https://bills.parliament.uk/publications/49592/documents/2846 The subsequent attempts to amend it were all rejected by the Commons. It has not yet appears on Legislation.gov.uk. It received Royal assent on 20th July. It came into force direct after Royal Assent. Work Notices cannot be published until regulation describing what services are in scope are made. The Consultation on the making of those regulations was in January this year and has closed. The regulations themselves have not yet been made, the coming into force date will be in the regulations. I would expect that draft regulations will be published during the Parliamentary Recess so that TOCs can work out which diagrams are covered by the regulations. The draft regulations must be approved by a resolution of each house of Parliament, that will be the delay in them coming into force.

Thereafter each strike notice will cause a response from employers who will consult with unions and "have regard to any views expressed by the union in response". I do not believe that will be anything which needs to go beyond noting unless an error is identified. The TOC is just implementing the regulations and not deciding them and the work-notice will be given 7 days before the strike. Those who are identified who do not comply will not be protected against actions by the employer. Strike mandates prior to the coming into force also offer no protection whatever.

That is just my reading of it in case it helps focus the discussion, you have the text to read for yourselves.

 

[baz962]

That didn't stop Ronald Reagan...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profe...ollers_Organization_(1968)#August_1981_strike

So many differences here. They were federal employees that had taken an oath not to strike. It was estimated it would take two years to replace them and took ten , anyone looking at that wouldn't probably try again. Many of them being allowed to reapply five years later. Sounds like Reagan massively got it wrong and Bill Clinton lifted the ban on the remaining employees.

 

[Train_manager]

I'm not sure train drivers on £60k a year are "working class".

I'm 100% working class thank you. I was born working class and will die working class.

Money doesn't buy you class thanks.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm 100% working class thank you. I was born working class and will die working class.

Money doesn't buy you class thanks.

Class refers to the type of work you do. If you were born on a council estate but become a GP, it doesn't mean you're working class. Working class jobs are ones that require limited skills or train you for semi-skilled work in a role that's unsustainable long term. Whether train driver roles are sustainable long term is dateable. I won't judge whether your skills are transferrable to other sectors or not.

 

[NI 271]

I'm not sure train drivers on £60k a year are "working class".

If train drivers were working class on the salaries pre-90s (and it'd take a very vivid imagination to pretend they weren't, nobody would have called them middle class then), they're working class today. A change in salary doesn't dictate whether a person is working class or not, their job does that.

The media has spent 40 years trying to convince working class people that they're middle class, because they knew full well that if they could convince them of that, a huge slice of them would vote the way they perceive middle class people to vote. Regretfully for our country, it worked.

 

[Bald Rick]

Strike action destroys it for days. Sacking every driver. I wouldn't even know what to guess at . Ten years to train enough drivers.

That’s assuming a) ASLEF didn’t immediately accept the deal (as they did in 1982, under instruction from the TUC), or b) that every single driver chose not to sign up to new terms and conditions, and leaves the industry altogether, which is extraordinarily unlikely. A more realistic worst case assessment is that there would be weeks of disruption in terms of reduced services, longer for some lines, but a normal service within a year.

Class refers to the type of work you do.

I thought we’d got beyond the principles of ‘class’ in this day and age. I don’t know even know what ‘class’ I am or supposed to be.

 

[Train_manager]

If train drivers were working class on the salaries pre-90s (and it'd take a very vivid imagination to pretend they weren't, nobody would have called them middle class then), they're working class today. A change in salary doesn't dictate whether a person is working class or not, their job does that.

The media has spent 40 years trying to convince working class people that they're middle class, because they knew full well that if they could convince them of that, a huge slice of them would vote the way they perceive middle class people to vote. Regretfully for our country, it worked.

HERE HERE. 100% agree !!!!!!!!

I think we need a separate thread on this subject

 

[Val3ntine]

Of course. You can't be forced to work as such. But it takes away the legal protection and a company will be able to dismiss you aiui.

If i’m not wrong, you lose the protection of dismissal after the first 12 weeks of Industrial Action anyway! I’m yet to see anyone dismissed thus far and disputes across many sectors are way into their 12 month anniversary let alone 12 weeks.

 

[baz962]

If i’m not wrong, you lose the protection of dismissal after the first 12 weeks of Industrial Action anyway! I’m yet to see anyone dismissed thus far and disputes across many sectors are way into their 12 month anniversary let alone 12 weeks.

Is the twelve weeks continuous though or including all action for the same dispute.

 

[northwichcat]

If train drivers were working class on the salaries pre-90s (and it'd take a very vivid imagination to pretend they weren't, nobody would have called them middle class then), they're working class today. A change in salary doesn't dictate whether a person is working class or not, their job does that.

If salary is irrelevant then the question is were train drivers underpaid highly qualified workers in the 90s?

Someone who was a trainee solicitor in the 90s probably isn't to claim they're working class, even if they are well paid now.

I thought we’d got beyond the principles of ‘class’ in this day and age. I don’t know even know what ‘class’ I am or supposed to be.

I remember there was a study on it around 10-15 years ago and the findings were that classes still exist in Britain but it's a lot more complex than working class, middle class and upper class.

 

[Val3ntine]

Is the twelve weeks continuous though or including all action for the same dispute.

This I don’t know, but regardless all people involved in IA at some point is at risk from dismissal (if not sorted within the first 3 months), so don’t really see how this changes things much.

 

[baz962]

That’s assuming a) ASLEF didn’t immediately accept the deal (as they did in 1982, under instruction from the TUC), or b) that every single driver chose not to sign up to new terms and conditions, and leaves the industry altogether, which is extraordinarily unlikely. A more realistic worst case assessment is that there would be weeks of disruption in terms of reduced services, longer for some lines, but a normal service within a year.





I thought we’d got beyond the principles of ‘class’ in this day and age. I don’t know even know what ‘class’ I am or supposed to be.

Like I said I was guessing , but a lot would leave. We have some leaving the industry and retiring earlier because they do not want these terms and conditions. We have quite a few that where coming over as qualified that have pulled out. Of course you might be right but are we ever going to get to vote or would this all be implemented anyway by aslef. I would consider leaving before I accept stupid movement off spare and floating rest days. And even if you only have a few and they happen to be driver instructors then you are knackered. I know of quite a few that even if they stayed in the industry would still consider giving up instructor duties.

 

[CAF397]

If government don't care about railways why did they rescue TPE?

They didn't rescue TPE.

They responded to pressure to take the franchise off First Group. To be seen as doing something. In reality, very little changed as a result. The new MD appears to have a bit more freedom than Matthew Golton. The Rest Day Working agreement that MG managed to get negotiated - but was suspended - is now in place, and when ASLEF aren't in one of their no overtime weeks the service provided is quite respectible.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Yeah if that deal comes in I will be leaving and doing something else. I’m qualified enough that I can earn the same salary elsewhere, and still know when my days off are going to be.

Money wise I’m hopeless and the overtime bans are causing me great hardship. As do the strikes.

Good luck finding a car for less than £15000 these days though. Even a basic Dacia costs that sort of money.

 

[A0]

I'm 100% working class thank you. I was born working class and will die working class.

Money doesn't buy you class thanks.

Working class roles are generally unskilled or low skilled, low paid.

According to the rail unions, train drivers are "highly trained and highly skilled" - that's not the usual definition of working class.

HERE HERE. 100% agree !!!!!!!!

I think we need a separate thread on this subject

It's "hear, hear", not "here, here".

Here, Here or Hear, Hear?

If you want to voice your agreement with someone during a debate (especially if you’re a member of the UK Parliament), you will shout “hear,…

www.grammarly.com

 

[NI 271]

If salary is irrelevant then the question is were train drivers underpaid highly qualified workers in the 90s?

It really isn't. You don't get to revise history just to suit a point of view you hold.

In post #70, you said "Class refers to the type of work you do". Train driver is a working class job. It always was, it always will be. Nobody is looking at me after a shift, clothing and skin/hair covered in grease from couplings/engines/diesel, and thinking "now THERE'S a middle class man". Nobody sees me walking in from a shift at 5 in the morning, or setting off at midnight, and thinks it either. I'm (literally) a blue-collar worker (except for my jackets, the collars of which are orange (and black, from said grease).

I've already explained how the perception of what is or isn't 'working class' was altered, deliberately, by people who sought to kid people of something for votes. I wasn't one of those duped, however. I know lots of tradesmen who earn a lot more than I do. You're going to tell me joiners, painter/decorators, plumbers, gas fitters etc are middle class because they earn good money? Because if so, I've got a bridge to sell you.

I'm off to work on a T3 this afternoon. Can't wait to tell the lads humping scrap rail and old ballast about in the pissing rain that because they earn more than average salary they're middle class. I'm sure they'll all agree and not laugh their behinds off at me.

 

[irish_rail]

Not any more. Under the terms of the Bill, if you are given a notice requiring you to work and you do not, the company can take disciplinary action against you. Whether there is a picket line or not is irrelevant.

Why would Mick Whelan say it then? I don't think this bill covers crossing hypothetical picket lines (happy to be corrected?)
If this did all go through, I reckon we would see some kind of unofficial industry wide action such as all driving instructors to resign their instructor positions. That would completely and utterly screw up driver training for months and years to come, and would be relatively painless (except for the loss of instructor incentives). Other things we may see would include drivers refusing cab access to any route learner etc etc and the whole thing would soon descend into chaos and farce. But if thats what the naive Tory boys want.........

 

[SouthStand]

It's taking time, but as the older staff retire the railway unions are (thankfully) gradually becoming less relevant. Tick, tock.

 

[r1_biker]

It's taking time, but as the older staff retire the railway unions are (thankfully) gradually becoming less relevant. Tick, tock.

so what's the plan then ? Get rid of unions, everyone in the country on zero hour contracts and minimum wage ? Or get rid of minimum wage and just get whatever you are given ?

Get rid of maternity and paternity leave ? Go sick and get fired ?