A depressingly familiar journey through broken Britain

[yorksrob]

I'm fairly certain that had Woodhead been retained, modifications would have been made at the Sheffield end to allow services to be concentrated onto Midland, just as was done in several other places over the subsequent decades. See Lincoln as an example.

Not impossible, but a bit more tricky given the way the two lines intersect.

 

[Falcon1200]

The journey is tedious and the lack of electrification increases operational costs.

In what way is the Hope Valley route tedious compared to Woodhead; Was the journey time much less on the latter?

I'm fairly certain that had Woodhead been retained, modifications would have been made at the Sheffield end to allow services to be concentrated onto Midland, just as was done in several other places over the subsequent decades. See Lincoln as an example.

Passenger services did of course continue on part of the Woodhead route, the Huddersfield/Sheffield trains. These reversed at Nunnery Junction with an obvious time penalty getting to Midland rather than Victoria. I'm not sure building an electrified connection to allow Woodhead line trains to run direct to Midland was ever considered, or indeed was possible; And justifiable, in cost terms, given that there was already a direct route between Midland and Manchester!

Back to the OP; Do we know the details of what occurred? Presumably the disgruntled passenger joined a Norwich-Liverpool train which arrived at Nottingham as a 2-car and was not strengthened there. Was this booked, which I agree was poor, or did the strengthening fall through for some reason, eg set failure/shortage, staff issues, or service disruption somewhere?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In what way is the Hope Valley route tedious compared to Woodhead; Was the journey time much less on the latter?

I personally think the Hope Valley is quite beautiful. The Woodhead is too, but I wouldn't say I'd prefer one over the other scenery-wise, and it maintained car-free access to the Peak which is well-used, now to the point of requiring (and getting, thankfully) 6-car units on a weekend in summer.

If I had to pick one I'd definitely pick the Hope Valley out of the two, though they really should have shoved the wires up it was a different era before we realised the harm of diesel and carbon emissions.

 

[ar10642]

Anyone with an ounce of understanding can see that Britain is currently broken every which way.

The article is also a good reminder that, despite the weasel words of Bojo and his ilk, England is run in the South, by the South and for the South.

London specifically, not the wider South.

 

[DerekC]

London specifically, not the wider South.

And to go with that, the railway is now run by the Treasury. The Treasury gets the revenue and gives DfT cost reduction targets - so crowded trains in the North are great - more revenue and less cost with no downside in the London area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

London specifically, not the wider South.

Probably, to be fair, most of the Network SouthEast area.

 

[Mat17]

It might be "better" for the small number of people attempting to travel into the peaks, but it is markedly inferior for the bread and butter of people actually trying to travel between Manchester and Sheffield.

As I live near the former Woodhead route, the Hope Valley is useless for me, a total detour to Huddersfield or Sheffield to get to Manchester (with all the capacity issues entailed) so I drive to Manchester now instead, which is pretty awful in itself, but better than going out of my way to find a train that I might be able to get on - if it runs.

Catching trains between Sheffield and Manchester is never pain free and should only be attempted by the foolhardy.

 

[Bryson]

As I live near the former Woodhead route, the Hope Valley is useless for me, a total detour to Huddersfield or Sheffield to get to Manchester (with all the capacity issues entailed) so I drive to Manchester now instead, which is pretty awful in itself, but better than going out of my way to find a train that I might be able to get on - if it runs.

Catching trains between Sheffield and Manchester is never pain free and should only be attempted by the foolhardy.

I found driving to Glossop, and taking the train from there, was a good compromise. At the morning peak the travel time to central Manchester was shorter and I avoided the difficulty and expense for parking in the city centre.

 

[Bartsimho]

As I live near the former Woodhead route, the Hope Valley is useless for me, a total detour to Huddersfield or Sheffield to get to Manchester (with all the capacity issues entailed) so I drive to Manchester now instead, which is pretty awful in itself, but better than going out of my way to find a train that I might be able to get on - if it runs.

Catching trains between Sheffield and Manchester is never pain free and should only be attempted by the foolhardy.

Looking at the area in general I think Marsden and Hope valley serves more people.
Huddersfield and Sheffield have a lot more people than Penistone and Stocksbridge and the areas round Manchester on each route is fairly even (might say Hope Valley has more due to Stockport)

 

[ALEMASTER]

Sheffield to Manchester train service on paper isn't actually bad and when everything works as it should offers a pleasant journey.

Unfortunately EMR regularly short form - the majority of the Norwich-Liverpool services are supposed to be 4 car between Nottingham and Liverpool but often only have 2 cars. The 158s are also getting rather long in the tooth now.

Meanwhile TPE services are regularly cancelled, with the ones that do actually run often short formed as 3 cars instead of 6 cars.

The performance issues with TPE and EMR have knock on effects on the Northern local service with passengers that couldn't get on the express crowding onto the (more reliable) local service, causing a problem for those wanting to travel to or from the intermediate suburban and rural stations.

 

[yorksrob]

I found driving to Glossop, and taking the train from there, was a good compromise. At the morning peak the travel time to central Manchester was shorter and I avoided the difficulty and expense for parking in the city centre.

Indeed. Glossop line is pretty good in my experience.

 

[dk1]

Unfortunately EMR regularly short form - the majority of the Norwich-Liverpool services are supposed to be 4 car between Nottingham and Liverpool but often only have 2 cars. The 158s are also getting rather long in the tooth now.

No replacement let alone a refresh/refurb in sight either sadly.

Totally agree though that it’s a very pleasant journey across the Hope Valley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No replacement let alone a refresh/refurb in sight either sadly.

Totally agree though that it’s a very pleasant journey across the Hope Valley.

There was talk of 5-car 170 formations on another thread, but nothing confirmed.

I found driving to Glossop, and taking the train from there, was a good compromise. At the morning peak the travel time to central Manchester was shorter and I avoided the difficulty and expense for parking in the city centre.

I've never known (outside London) a station as expensive as Sheffield for parking, it's over twenty quid for a day.

Dore is another option, then take the Northern service. But depending where you are in Sheffield a run over the Woodhead or Snake to park and ride somewhere on the Manchester side as you suggest could well be quicker. Both are a lovely drive, too.

 

[dk1]

There was talk of 5-car 170 formations on another thread, but nothing confirmed.

A recent article with EMR in MR magazine mentioned some 158s being formed into 3-car units thus operating as 5-cars west of Nottingham. Would be good to see the 3-cars continuing east.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I've never known (outside London) a station as expensive as Sheffield for parking, it's over twenty quid for a day.

Sheffield is, I believe, the same as Edinburgh for a 24 hour stay.

Manchester Piccadilly is only a quid cheaper.

Reading, I think, is £25 for a 24 hour stay.

Oxford, possibly even more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oxford is £7, but only for rail users, it's £31.50 for non-rail users. I don't know how they check that.

Edit: I do know how they check that now I remember - there's a display on the nearside platform, visible only from inside the gateline, with a code to discount the parking. However with that difference a return to the next stop to go in and get it would probably be worth it!

That's outrageous for Reading, there's really no justification for it being substantially more than MKC, and that's about 12 quid. Manchester Picc isn't really a place where many will want to park; Stockport is the "M60 Parkway" station and is £15.

Edinburgh I can kind of understand, as it's a very anti-car city.

 

[Mat17]

I found driving to Glossop, and taking the train from there, was a good compromise. At the morning peak the travel time to central Manchester was shorter and I avoided the difficulty and expense for parking in the city centre.

I've done this too and used Dinting a few times. Ironic isn't it that I'm still using the Woodhead line remnants when not driving the whole distance!

 

[AndrewE]

Sheffield is, I believe, the same as Edinburgh for a 24 hour stay.

Manchester Piccadilly is only a quid cheaper.

Reading, I think, is £25 for a 24 hour stay.

Oxford, possibly even more.

Oxford is £7, but only for rail users, it's £31.50 for non-rail users. I don't know how they check that.

That's outrageous for Reading, there's really no justification for it being substantially more than MKC, and that's about 12 quid. Manchester Picc isn't really a place where many will want to park; Stockport is the "M60 Parkway" station and is £15.

Edinburgh I can kind of understand, as it's a very anti-car city.

My heart bleeds for you all... not!
Edinburgh puts lots of money into its buses to try to make it more practical for people to not take their cars into the city and thus prevent the pollution and congestion that they cause. If you really think you are entitled to drive into a city centre to get a train then you are about 30 years behind the times and deserve to pay the price for causing congestion and pollution.

I visited the Wirral today and again (like Edinburgh) found that we could get where we needed to go by a bus, this time through one of the tunnels and which left from a stop not far from Lime St. Then on by bus for a walk along New Brighton prom and finally a train home. It was a bit like Sheffield 30 years ago: a rapid succession of well-loaded buses setting down or loading and whizzing off. Public transport working well!
Although I have been going to places in the suburbs (and some venues out of town) it also works the other way: just drive to a railhead if you have to (Glossop being a good example) or if you are nearer then walk to a bus stop or get a bike.

Back to trans-Pennine trains: I'm sure they all suffer from not being in or near London, and all are woefully inadequate regarding short-forming and cancellations. I too would like to have seen the Woodhead route retained, but understand why the Hope valley was instead, for which I am grateful. Out here in the sticks we are lucky that even that one survived!

The Treasury seems to be so narrow-minded and focussed only on short-term cash that I really think it should be made responsible for the carbon budget too, that way it wouldn't be forcing the DfT to cut rail capacity which is forcing people onto buses or into cars.

 

[Chester1]

The starting point for my reaction to criticisms of any government (red or blue) is there is a sizable minority, maybe one in five people on average who are incapable of being happy in any political system in any country. Some people are just moaners and pessimistic by temperament. Any political party serious about governing in any country is just wasting their time with them.

My view based on a mixture of my experience as a rail user and from rational analysis is this government has done multiple things to improve the rail network in the north but not enough and all heavily delayed. Its absurd to say a government that has overseen electrification of Manchester to Liverpool via Chat Moss, Manchester to Preston via Bolton, built the Ordsall Chord, is close to wiring Wigan to Stalybridge, replaced pacers and massively increased TPEs rolling stock hasn't tried or done anything. I think its clearly not been enough and there have been huge staffing issues. However, anyone who thinks its all bad is the person I described in the first paragraph. Those ******** will enjoy reading a similar article in five years time about (probably) a Labour government, that will be published even if Labour does really well on transport issues.

 

[Djgr]

The starting point for my reaction to criticisms of any government (red or blue) is there is a sizable minority, maybe one in five people on average who are incapable of being happy in any political system in any country. Some people are just moaners and pessimistic by temperament. Any political party serious about governing in any country is just wasting their time with them.

My view based on a mixture of my experience as a rail user and from rational analysis is this government has done multiple things to improve the rail network in the north but not enough and all heavily delayed. Its absurd to say a government that has overseen electrification of Manchester to Liverpool via Chat Moss, Manchester to Preston via Bolton, built the Ordsall Chord, is close to wiring Wigan to Stalybridge, replaced pacers and massively increased TPEs rolling stock hasn't tried or done anything. I think its clearly not been enough and there have been huge staffing issues. However, anyone who thinks its all bad is the person I described in the first paragraph. Those ******** will enjoy reading a similar article in five years time about (probably) a Labour government, that will be published even if Labour does really well on transport issues.

I disagree. I believe strongly that the governments of the last 12 years or so have truly broken Britain, whether it be transport, education, health or the public realm. Nothing works. Everything is going backwards. There is no credible way forward. Transport is a good example but is by no means unique.

 

[urbophile]

Its absurd to say a government that has overseen electrification of Manchester to Liverpool via Chat Moss, Manchester to Preston via Bolton, built the Ordsall Chord, is close to wiring Wigan to Stalybridge, replaced pacers and massively increased TPEs rolling stock hasn't tried or done anything. I think its clearly not been enough and there have been huge staffing issues. However, anyone who thinks its all bad is the person I described in the first paragraph. Those ******** will enjoy reading a similar article in five years time about (probably) a Labour government, that will be published even if Labour does really well on transport issues.

All of which improvements were long overdue. It's the government's job to ensure the country is well run and its infrastructure is fit for purpose. Of course it could have done even less, but to claim these things as achievements is like claiming the Uxbridge by-election result was a resounding victory.

 

[Chester1]

I disagree. I believe strongly that the governments of the last 12 years or so have truly broken Britain, whether it be transport, education, health or the public realm. Nothing works. Everything is going backwards. There is no credible way forward. Transport is a good example but is by no means unique.

Nothing works? Really? There a ton of problems with our public services, but nothing works?! That is extremely blanket negative statement.

All of which improvements were long overdue. It's the government's job to ensure the country is well run and its infrastructure is fit for purpose. Of course it could have done even less, but to claim these things as achievements is like claiming the Uxbridge by-election result was a resounding victory.

I do not vote Tory but I am capable of acknowledging that are some areas where railway have improved in last 13 years. Labour did very little electrification and then tried to take credit for electrification they announced shortly before the 2010 general election but were the work has been done since they left office. If Labour win the general election and complete MML and transpennine electrification they will deserve some credit, despite them being a clear and necessary projects.

The OP article seems to be aimed at a mix of people with genuine gripes, people who don't like / ideologically oppose the current ruling party and people who just need to see the world through a negative lense, as constantly rubbish and going down the pan. If a new government improves things then the first group will shrink, the second group will change and third group will still lap up the same content. Thats why I think the Echo will run a near duplicate article towards end of the likely next Labour government's first term. They could have written the same article in the 90s or 2000s.

 

[BJames]

Oxford is £7, but only for rail users, it's £31.50 for non-rail users. I don't know how they check that.

Edit: I do know how they check that now I remember - there's a display on the nearside platform, visible only from inside the gateline, with a code to discount the parking. However with that difference a return to the next stop to go in and get it would probably be worth it!

That's outrageous for Reading, there's really no justification for it being substantially more than MKC, and that's about 12 quid. Manchester Picc isn't really a place where many will want to park; Stockport is the "M60 Parkway" station and is £15.

Edinburgh I can kind of understand, as it's a very anti-car city.

Is this a fixed sign or a daily changing code? (i.e. could someone check this literally once and then have the code for significantly discounted parking for any subsequent times they wanted to use the car park and not the train?)

 

[Jozhua]

I agree with the sentiment of the article being a little melodramatic, but 2hrs on that train does that to one's Psyche. Plus, would we all be talking about it quite this much if not for a bit of dramatic flare?

It's brutally frustrating. I have often had to use these short formed Cross Country, EMR, Northern, TPE trains since I was literally a kid travelling with my parents sat for the journey on a luggage rack. No more capacity and more limited advance fares (due to lack of capacity), than there was when I was a kid.

I'd argue it's not a sign of 'broken Britian', it's a sign of 'potentially very good Britain if we make some targeted investment/policy adjustments in a few key areas'. Building some more DMUs and cascading EMR some extra units is pretty cheap, all things considered.

TPE had a run of a couple of years where they had pretty good service after introduction of the Nova fleet. Obviously now there is the whole staffing nightmare, but it wasn't *that* expensive of a solution.

It's been stated many times - a workable solution is to reduce the published timetable to one you can deliver (to say 95% punctuality and reliability) with the resources you have, because doing otherwise is just being dishonest.

I agree with this - of course it may not resolve the capacity issue, but it would help with some of the other reliability problems!

To be fair, this article could be written about a multitude of lines throughout the North, Midlands, Wales or the South West and it’d be an accurate!

Absolutely true! To be fair, probably in the South East on a few routes too.

 

[JamesT]

Is this a fixed sign or a daily changing code? (i.e. could someone check this literally once and then have the code for significantly discounted parking for any subsequent times they wanted to use the car park and not the train?)

Daily changing I believe.

 

[irish_rail]

I disagree. I believe strongly that the governments of the last 12 years or so have truly broken Britain, whether it be transport, education, health or the public realm. Nothing works. Everything is going backwards. There is no credible way forward. Transport is a good example but is by no means unique.

Indeed. You only have to look at access to dentistry now compared with 12 years ago. In Plymouth now there pretty much are no NHS dentists, I like most people have been struck off through no fault of my own. Similarly , tried getting a doctors appointment lately???? I think we all forget how good we actually had it before the coalition, austerity the tories and brexit blighted this great nation.

 

[yorksrob]

Nothing works? Really? There a ton of problems with our public services, but nothing works?! That is extremely blanket negative statement.



I do not vote Tory but I am capable of acknowledging that are some areas where railway have improved in last 13 years. Labour did very little electrification and then tried to take credit for electrification they announced shortly before the 2010 general election but were the work has been done since they left office. If Labour win the general election and complete MML and transpennine electrification they will deserve some credit, despite them being a clear and necessary projects.

The OP article seems to be aimed at a mix of people with genuine gripes, people who don't like / ideologically oppose the current ruling party and people who just need to see the world through a negative lense, as constantly rubbish and going down the pan. If a new government improves things then the first group will shrink, the second group will change and third group will still lap up the same content. Thats why I think the Echo will run a near duplicate article towards end of the likely next Labour government's first term. They could have written the same article in the 90s or 2000s.

It improved under Patrick McGloughlin, who will go down in history as one of the better transport secretaries, however, with the exception of Boris' reopening schemes, the picture since has been stagnation and decline.

The recent incarnation is the worst of them all. Absolutely nothing of benefit to passengers. Infact the "flagship" policy is an ill thought out slash and burn policy on ticket office closures.

To be fair, they seemed pretty good at running trains without any passengers. Perhaps they hoped that we wouldn't come back since the policy seems to be to make the railway progressively worse the more people try to use it.

 

[dk1]

Indeed. You only have to look at access to dentistry now compared with 12 years ago. In Plymouth now there pretty much are no NHS dentists, I like most people have been struck off through no fault of my own. Similarly , tried getting a doctors appointment lately???? I think we all forget how good we actually had it before the coalition, austerity the tories and brexit blighted this great nation.

We must be very lucky here just outside Norwich. The surgery will almost always manage to find a doctors appointment and if not you can pop down and wait. I have been with a private dentist nearby for over 20 years thankfully and even during the latter days of the pandemic even managed to get in with only a few weeks notice. That’s fully back to normal again now.

 

[Falcon1200]

Back to trans-Pennine trains: I'm sure they all suffer from not being in or near London, and all are woefully inadequate regarding short-forming and cancellations

The TPE services I use most often are the Scotland/Manchester Airport trains, and in recent years these have gone from 3-car Class 185, via 4-car Class 350 (thanks to electrification in Lancashire) to 5-car Class 397. That is s substantial improvement, although I do agree on the level of cancellations.

You only have to look at access to dentistry now compared with 12 years ago. In Plymouth now there pretty much are no NHS dentists, I like most people have been struck off through no fault of my own. Similarly , tried getting a doctors appointment lately???? I think we all forget how good we actually had it before the coalition, austerity the tories and brexit blighted this great nation.

Very similar issues in Scotland, which is nothing to do with the evil Tories!

All of which improvements were long overdue.

Indeed, but I recall for example electrification in Lancashire, eg Manchester/Blackpool, being talked, or rather dreamed, about in BR days. At least it did finally happen.

 

[irish_rail]

We must be very lucky here just outside Norwich. The surgery will almost always manage to find a doctors appointment and if not you can pop down and wait. I have been with a private dentist nearby for over 20 years thankfully and even during the latter days of the pandemic even managed to get in with only a few weeks notice. That’s fully back to normal again now.

Indeed that does sound very good doctor wise. But a private dentist may be fine for some, but for many just not affordable.