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Why are certain people completely apathetic or opposed to the idea of tackling climate change?

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MikeWM

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I don't necessarily think it is stubbornness, more fatigue. Just as with the responses to the covid pandemic, people get fed up with being constantly blamed for all the ills in the world for simply going about their lives.

I'd say this is pretty key actually. Being told repeatedly how terrible you are by merely existing doesn't exactly motivate. At least when organised religion used to do so it was with the promise of heaven at the end of it! You're always going to get some people deeply devoted to a cause and to embracing personal deprivation as a result - there's more than enough examples of that, most are probably religious in some way - but trying to enforce that on the entire population is very tricky. (Indeed one could easily argue that the response we were told to take to covid, and now net zero, have a great many similarities with a religion (if being polite) or a cult (if being less so!)).

As I've said above though, while they are clearly trying to use the same mechanisms of persuasion and 'nudging' and outright fear-mongering we saw over covid, there are two key differences : the things we were told we had to do, which markedly reduced our quality of life, were supposedly 'very' temporary (although of course they turned out to be less so) and there was a (supposed) immediate consequence of severe illness or death for you or loved ones if you didn't. With net zero, these negative changes are permanent and the consequences for not doing so are abstract and distant. I think that means people are far less likely to go along with net zero than they (regrettably) did, at least for a time, with covid nonsense.
 
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AM9

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With net zero, these negative changes are permanent and the consequences for not doing so are abstract and distant. I think that means people are far less likely to go along with net zero than they (regrettably) did, at least for a time, with covid nonsense.
I think that the consequences are no longer abstract and distant, and those giving the impression that they are are often ones who benefit from the status quo, (which is changing faster than many realise). Those of my age (mid '70s), can understandibly feel that little will change in their lifetime, but those (say) 60 years old or less will probably feel the effects of what is beginning to look like a one way process where arresting rising CO2 levels is just possible if serious action is taken, and the 'do as little as possible' option will feed into a positive feed back situation. That is especially true of the impact of wildfires where the carbon that they send into the atmosphere is creating conditions where an increse of wildfires will occur, and so on. We are probably approaching a cliff edge of declining conditionss in many areas on earth; if we wait until we can see what it is like over the cliff, it's too late.
The trouble is that so many today can't handle that, so they convince themselves that it won't happen. :rolleyes:
 

yorksrob

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I think that the consequences are no longer abstract and distant, and those giving the impression that they are are often ones who benefit from the status quo, (which is changing faster than many realise). Those of my age (mid '70s), can understandibly feel that little will change in their lifetime, but those (say) 60 years old or less will probably feel the effects of what is beginning to look like a one way process where arresting rising CO2 levels is just possible if serious action is taken, and the 'do as little as possible' option will feed into a positive feed back situation. That is especially true of the impact of wildfires where the carbon that they send into the atmosphere is creating conditions where an increse of wildfires will occur, and so on. We are probably approaching a cliff edge of declining conditionss in many areas on earth; if we wait until we can see what it is like over the cliff, it's too late.
The trouble is that so many today can't handle that, so they convince themselves that it won't happen. :rolleyes:

Very true.

We're at the stage where we need:

Carbon capture - it's beyond winding down carbon emissions, we need to be removing those already there.

Nuclear fusion - its been opined for forty years or more, breakthroughs have happened but it's still too far off.
 

MikeWM

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I think that the consequences are no longer abstract and distant,

I'd agree that the consequence of *changes in the climate* are not abstract and distant, but that's been the case for all life on this planet since the year dot. Changes in climate have required all manner of changes in where and how plants, animals and now humans live, on a fairly regular basis.

The key question would appear to be how much mankind is in control of this, and/or how much mankind can do to actually change it. The more I look into this the more I get doubtful that the human contribution to the climate changing - while it no doubt exists, given the amount of stuff we've put into the atmosphere in the last 150 years - is all that major. I'm increasingly getting the feeling that we have another case of the same hubris that led us to believe we could stop the spread of a respiratory virus. Sometimes nature is just too big and complex for us to control. We have to accept that as human beings channeling science and invention, we do have unprecedented power over many parts of nature compared to our ancestors and animal predecessors, but we are not God and there are some things we just cannot do.

Equally when we get to the 'we have to act now because later it will be too late', while such arguments do obviously have some merits in some cases, chime uncomfortably close for me to 'we have to lock down now because the modelling says hospitals will be overwhelmed otherwise', despite any evidence to show that lockdowns would achieve anything other than delaying the inevitable combined with the unfortunate side-effect of wrecking the economy.

Yes, 5 years ago I probably would have agreed with you, I took climate change on trust because we were told the scientists said so, and while I didn't trust politicans or the media I did largely trust scientists. I can't deny that my worldview has been dramatically altered by what happened with covid - in particular belief in scientific consensus when it turns out to actually largely be based on modeling of dubious quality, the silencing of alternative views, and a dodgy funding system. And the more I dig into the specifics of the climate change narrative, the more similarities I see with what I saw when I dug into the specifics of the covid narrative. That raises an awful lot of questions for me that I can't ignore.

None of which means we shouldn't take a lot better care of the planet than we do, and switch to 'cleaner' ways of doing things when they are sufficiently developed that they are good replacements. I strongly believe in the old Christian concept of stewardship.

None of which also doesn't mean that we should just stick our head in the sand and ignore problems that may occur in the future, either. I'd say there is a good argument that we'd be better off funneling the vast amount of money we're putting towards trying to stop climate change into mitigating its effects instead. (Again, in much the same way that increased NHS capacity would have been a much better way to deal with a pandemic of a respiratory virus, when compared to spending hundreds of billions on furlough and track and trace.)
 

VauxhallandI

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It’s particularly hard to swallow when people 70 years plus who have had their fill decide it’s time to lecture others
 

yorksrob

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My parents are 70 years plus and they scraped by with barely a pot to piss in for most of it. Yes, they loved their (one) car, but they didn't fly anywhere until my siblings started to move abroad.
 

AM9

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I'd agree that the consequence of *changes in the climate* are not abstract and distant, but that's been the case for all life on this planet since the year dot. Changes in climate have required all manner of changes in where and how plants, animals and now humans live, on a fairly regular basis.

The key question would appear to be how much mankind is in control of this, and/or how much mankind can do to actually change it. The more I look into this the more I get doubtful that the human contribution to the climate changing - while it no doubt exists, given the amount of stuff we've put into the atmosphere in the last 150 years - is all that major. I'm increasingly getting the feeling that we have another case of the same hubris that led us to believe we could stop the spread of a respiratory virus. Sometimes nature is just too big and complex for us to control. We have to accept that as human beings channeling science and invention, we do have unprecedented power over many parts of nature compared to our ancestors and animal predecessors, but we are not God and there are some things we just cannot do.

Equally when we get to the 'we have to act now because later it will be too late', while such arguments do obviously have some merits in some cases, chime uncomfortably close for me to 'we have to lock down now because the modelling says hospitals will be overwhelmed otherwise', despite any evidence to show that lockdowns would achieve anything other than delaying the inevitable combined with the unfortunate side-effect of wrecking the economy.

Yes, 5 years ago I probably would have agreed with you, I took climate change on trust because we were told the scientists said so, and while I didn't trust politicans or the media I did largely trust scientists. I can't deny that my worldview has been dramatically altered by what happened with covid - in particular belief in scientific consensus when it turns out to actually largely be based on modeling of dubious quality, the silencing of alternative views, and a dodgy funding system. And the more I dig into the specifics of the climate change narrative, the more similarities I see with what I saw when I dug into the specifics of the covid narrative. That raises an awful lot of questions for me that I can't ignore.

None of which means we shouldn't take a lot better care of the planet than we do, and switch to 'cleaner' ways of doing things when they are sufficiently developed that they are good replacements. I strongly believe in the old Christian concept of stewardship.

None of which also doesn't mean that we should just stick our head in the sand and ignore problems that may occur in the future, either. I'd say there is a good argument that we'd be better off funneling the vast amount of money we're putting towards trying to stop climate change into mitigating its effects instead. (Again, in much the same way that increased NHS capacity would have been a much better way to deal with a pandemic of a respiratory virus, when compared to spending hundreds of billions on furlough and track and trace.)
I think your continual referencing of some of the issues you have with the handling of the COVID-19 pandemic is largely irrelevant to the climate crisis we all face, both here in the UK and globally. To me, based on what scientists explain, (rather than politicians of all persuasions, blokes in street who don't want anything to change or even conspiracy theorists), the world certainly does have a problem.
I have been following the issue since the late eighties when meteorologists were saying that the average global temperature is on an upward trend and that we can expect weather conditiuons to be more unpredictable and extreme. Those that did notice their predictions mostly tagged onto the press's version of the story which largely dismissed it as 'global warming', a term coined by a US geochemist in 1975. There was much discussion about whether we would get warmer summers and winters, (nothing quite like the weather to get the British putting a positive spin on bad news), so nobody cared much. Then the media did start noticing again in 2003 when there was the August rise to 39.1, - the first time that the temperature in the UK had risen over the magic 100 deg which excited those who like big numbers, possible when using the obsolete Fahrenheit temperature scale. Since then, much of the UK population has gradually realised that something is changing, but have decided that it isn't 'their problem'. Those that control the media have been happy to indulge that ignorance, partly because they are from a sector of society that can financially insualte themselves from the impact of the changes, and indeed many actually profit from the continuance of behaviour that is driving the global change.
Come the 'teen years, pretending that nothing is changing is getting more difficult (IMO 'ridiculous') and at last governments are at least talking about the problems, prompted by minor nations who are much nearer the cliff edge than safe old north-western Europe, and now in the early '20s the pattern of change are there for all to see, the jetstream in the height of summer has violent swings from north of Scotland to north Africa with quite problematic weather impacts in between. Wild fires are becoming endemic in the UK in summer, even causing major loss to a village within the GLA borders.

None of what I have written here has any similarity to the issues of the pandemic, - here the matter could in the extreme be existential, if to to our absolute existence, certainly to life as we know it by carrying on with gay abandon to the environment that we need to live in.
 

MikeWM

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I think your continual referencing of some of the issues you have with the handling of the COVID-19 pandemic is largely irrelevant to the climate crisis we all face, both here in the UK and globally.

All I can say to that is that what our response to covid showed me was that we have a collection of very serious structural problems in our society. I can't deny that it has changed my perspective considerably on quite a number of issues, which is part of the reason I mention it in various contexts just as this.

To me, based on what scientists explain, (rather than politicians of all persuasions, blokes in street who don't want anything to change or even conspiracy theorists), the world certainly does have a problem.

And Covid was a problem too, I've never denied that. The problem there is that we saw a problem, paniced about it, and made what I believe to be all the wrong choices in response - which, coincidentally or otherwise, gave a massive increase to the powers of the state and a massive wealth transfer from poor to rich. Just like our response to climate change is doing. And yes, I acknowledge that perhaps I am looking through too much of a Covid-shaped lens, but to me the similarities are mounting up.

I have been following the issue since the late eighties when meteorologists were saying that the average global temperature is on an upward trend and that we can expect weather conditiuons to be more unpredictable and extreme...

...but as I said above, I don't dispute that the climate is changing, it clearly is. The questions are do we have the right culprits and is there much we can realistically do about it? We can't do anything at all about underwater volcanos erupting, for example, such as the Hunga Tonga in January 2022, which has put so much water vapour into the atmosphere that it may have raised global temperatures in the short-term by 1 or even 1.5C. And the fact that no-one chooses to mention effects such as that when talking hyperbole about last month being 'the warmest month on record' again echoes the covid years for me, when inconvenient facts (eg. Sweden) were brushed under the carpet when they didn't fit the narrative being pushed.

None of what I have written here has any similarity to the issues of the pandemic, - here the matter could in the extreme be existential, if to to our absolute existence, certainly to life as we know it by carrying on with gay abandon to the environment that we need to live in.

I don't agree. We will adapt - it may be painful and difficult, and I understand that *if possible* it may well be better to avoid having to do so - but this is no more existential than covid.
 

The Ham

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I don't necessarily think it is stubbornness, more fatigue. Just as with the responses to the covid pandemic, people get fed up with being constantly blamed for all the ills in the world for simply going about their lives.

Its made all the worse with examples like the one at the end of your post. If energy companies really are cashing in on buying cheaper, greener energy then not passing that on to customers can you really blame anyone for becoming sceptical? As I've said previously, if you want real buy-in then make it affordable.

I did imply that stubborn wasn't really the right definition.

Technically the cost issue is one of the government's making. Historically the cost differences weren't all that big, so if someone was paid 150 when they offered 100 it's not that big a deal. Now if they offered 55 and they get paid 400 that has a big impact on their profits.

If there were tiers of payments so the bottom 1/3 got paid the 34% percentile value, the next 1/3 for paid the 67% percentile value and the last 1/3 for paid the 100% percentile value it would allow for lower energy bills whilst still allowing some extra profits to be generated. It would also require a fairly limited change in how things are done.

I'd say this is pretty key actually. Being told repeatedly how terrible you are by merely existing doesn't exactly motivate. At least when organised religion used to do so it was with the promise of heaven at the end of it! You're always going to get some people deeply devoted to a cause and to embracing personal deprivation as a result - there's more than enough examples of that, most are probably religious in some way - but trying to enforce that on the entire population is very tricky. (Indeed one could easily argue that the response we were told to take to covid, and now net zero, have a great many similarities with a religion (if being polite) or a cult (if being less so!)).

As I've said above though, while they are clearly trying to use the same mechanisms of persuasion and 'nudging' and outright fear-mongering we saw over covid, there are two key differences : the things we were told we had to do, which markedly reduced our quality of life, were supposedly 'very' temporary (although of course they turned out to be less so) and there was a (supposed) immediate consequence of severe illness or death for you or loved ones if you didn't. With net zero, these negative changes are permanent and the consequences for not doing so are abstract and distant. I think that means people are far less likely to go along with net zero than they (regrettably) did, at least for a time, with covid nonsense.

Only there's been significant progress, with scope for significantly more progress, without or significantly harming or quality of life.

Arguably there's elements (such as waking and cycling) where by making changes there can be wider benefits.

By walking/cycling for about 30 minutes a day you meet the World Health Organization's guidance for being baseline healthy. For some, whilst getting to work would take them longer, by removing the need to do exercise outside of travelling thru could actually reduce the time they needed to do both separately (10*10 minute commute plus 4*10 minutes travel to a gym plus 2*1 hour gives a total of 260 minutes, whist 10*25 minutes cycle commuting is a total of 250 minutes).

That's before you consider the fuel savings (if you can reduce the number of cars then the savings could be quite significant with the average cost of car ownership being over £3,000 per year).

Installing solar panels gives a pay back period in energy bills which even for someone in their 60's could be worth doing, and once that's happened it keeps your energy costs reduced.

The thing is, few who don't like the thought of climate change would actually go out of their way to waste money (for example buying a 10 year old fridge rather than a more modern energy efficient one) just to ensure their emissions are higher than needed. Just as in the same way few actually went into COVID wards to prove that it wasn't a thing.

It mostly boils down to how much effort the individual is willing to put into reducing their emissions, for some the answer is no effort (but they won't make an effort to increase our either), for others they'll do everything that they can to cut their emission.

I do like you're analogy of religion, as they be loads who just get in with it, don't make a fuss, might talk about it when asked, etc. They will be embarrassed by those who are loud and obnoxious about it, as they know that it's pouring people off finding out if it's something that they could be interested in. Not least, because those people tend to make a big fuss about something - when actually it's not that big a deal. Often because there's a rule which had been set up (sometimes with good intentions, and often it was useful at a given time but had outlived it's usefulness) but it just upsets people not within the religion when people bang on about it - when the reality is that it's not such as big a deal as people make out.

Clearly the best thing to do to cut emissions is to not drive at all, however you can still get many of the benefits if enough people just reduce their car use by a small amount. If your get told sell your car, it's an instant no I shall not. Hey asked if you'd join a group of neighbours to reduce your average mileage by a bit and the response is likely to be more favourable. It could end up with the same overall impact on emissions (OK you'd probably need about 200 neighbours) but it's impacted you all a lot less.

Even for those who do things which go beyond not making an effort, mostly it's because they aren't willing to make an effort to change something (lights, cars, insulation, etc.).
 

GS250

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Again....if there really is a 'climate emergency' why are we increasing emissions levels by introducing LTNs?
 

MikeWM

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Only there's been significant progress, with scope for significantly more progress, without or significantly harming or quality of life.

I agree, and I think that would continue in a natural way if we were left more-or-less alone to get on with it. It is the intervention of the state, big corporations and the media into forcing behaviour changes that I find troubling and actually off-putting.

For myself, I don't drive or even have a driving licence. I don't heat my home above 16C. I don't take foreign holidays, I haven't been on a plane since 2018 and don't expect to again any time soon. Of the 'big four' behaviour changes being aggressively pushed at the moment, the only one that would directly affect me is eating meat - I do that, daily.

But I do those things for the reason that I think they are the best thing for me, either healthily, or financially, or morally, or some combination of the three. I don't want to be forced into those choices.

And that's where we compare with covid again. The response to covid was predicated on the fact that the population couldn't be trusted to make good decisions with the information available to them, rather they needed the state to tell them what to do, down to tiny details. I totally disagree with that - of course there will be a few people who want to do stupid things, but on the whole people do operate in their own interest and the interests of those around them. I think the same applies to environmental issues - clearly we need some regulations and laws to stop extreme abuses, such as dumping chemicals into rivers and the like. But we don't need to be micro-managed by the state to make reasonable decisions.
 

The Ham

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Again....if there really is a 'climate emergency' why are we increasing emissions levels by introducing LTNs?

The theory is that by reducing through traffic, the total amount of traffic will reduce, in part due to there being routes which are more attractive to cyclists and walking.

Whilst there's a lot made about increases in traffic on boundary roads, where these increases have occurred these are less than the overall reduction in traffic across the area (although if there's any examples you can cite which buck this trend).

Also, as there's desire to change behaviour, it's likely to take time before new patterns are established. This could for a while result in higher traffic volumes than would be the case after the schemes have bedded in.

Although, it should also be noted, that traffic is likely to grow over time, so in 5 years whilst numbers might be the same as before, they are not the same as they would have been. As an example several years after the introduction of the congestion charge there was a big fuss about how traffic volumes had returned to pre congestion charge levels. However, without the congestion charge the levels would have all been higher for the intermediate years and the year in question would have been higher still.

Year. observed traffic (traffic with growth)
-1. 10 (10)
0. 8 (11)
1. 7 (12)
2. 7 (13)
3. 8 (14)
4. 9 (15)
5. 10 (16)

In year 5 observed traffic is back at pre scheme volumes, however as growth "should" have added 1 per year without the scene the traffic would have likely to have reached 16. As such whilst it's back to pre scheme levels, it's still much lower than it would have been without doing anything.
 

Yew

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Also, as there's desire to change behaviour, it's likely to take time before new patterns are established. This could for a while result in higher traffic volumes than would be the case after the schemes have bedded in.
I get very anxious at this idea of governments changing normal behaviours without some sort of mandate from all stakeholders.
 

AM9

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I get very anxious at this idea of governments changing normal behaviours without some sort of mandate from all stakeholders.
if a mandate from all stakeholders was required, nothing would ever be done!
 

AndrewE

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Interesting (and relevant to this thread) comment in the Grauniad today https://www.theguardian.com/comment...i-green-drive-general-election-unity-division "Sunak’s anti-green drive tells us this: we’re heading for the stupidest general election yet :
...
Only three months ago, Labour’s policy was to block all new oil and gas projects in the North Sea. It wasn’t as radical as its original green new deal pledge – £28bn a year to tackle the climate crisis – and it didn’t hold the same promise of change as last year’s conference pledge to set up Great British Energy, publicly owned and green. Nevertheless, it was something a large number of people could unite behind. You can easily imagine a Conservative environmentalist and a leftwing Green both lending their vote to a party that promised to leave fossil fuels in the ground.
/snip/
These licences had only one purpose, which was to back Starmer into a corner where he had to say whether or not he would revoke them – which sure enough, he wouldn’t, because respecting a contract is more important than the climate. So he marked himself out as a lukewarm technocrat without the passion or urgency that the battle for the planet needs, and then it got worse: criticised, perfectly legitimately, by Just Stop Oil, Starmer called them “contemptible” for beliefs that are indistinguishable from those of the UN secretary general.

It’s pointless hand-wringing about these obvious traps that Starmer obediently walks into, but this is the game we’re in now – one in which every Tory move, whether it’s camouflaged as policy or delivered in hate speech, is a bid to disrupt the unity of progressive voters. I do not think it will succeed. But I didn’t think it would succeed in 2019, either.
 

Bantamzen

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Another question is if there is a "climate emergency" why do rail fares keep going up?
Never mind rail fares, if there's a "climate emergency" then why are we paying carbon based prices for increasingly non-carbon energy production. Wasn't greener energy supposed to be cheaper? Or why are EVs considerably more expensive than their petrol equivalents? Or why aren't solar panels and heat pumps cheap enough for everyone?

Its funny how everything that could make a drastic difference is getting more expensive, whilst we the little people are told that everything we do that brings a little comfort or happiness is bringing about the end of the world. Or at least this is how it feels to a lot of people, and it is exactly why people are growing apathetic or even opposed to climate change measures. If the people gluing themselves to things, throwing yellow chemicals about or sitting on trains or in front of buses had even a slither of common sense they would understand this and direct their protests and actions in this direction.

The best bit is that the phrase "climate emergency" isn't even a scientific one, it was first used in anger by a local council in Australia back in 2016. It bet they are getting a buzz out of being the ones to declare a "climate emergency" that has millions of people panicking
 

bahnause

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One of the main problems with the climate crisis is our niceness. We allow opinions to be treated as facts for fear of otherwise "offending" someone. We sacrifice truth on the altar of niceness.

As long as we listen to the people who - as usual without a shred of evidence - have spent decades of research on flimsy grounds, we will not get anywhere. These people have no place in a factual discussion unless they can show evidence-based data. We all know only too well that they cannot. Everything they have put forward so far has been refuted, there is hardly anything new.

When the comparison with religion is drawn here: It is the climate deniers who are in a religious system. Believing something even though there is no evidence for it and it has been disproved hundreds and thousands of times. But for the sake of friendliness, it is still not permissible to call these people what they are.
 

Bantamzen

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One of the main problems with the climate crisis is our niceness. We allow opinions to be treated as facts for fear of otherwise "offending" someone. We sacrifice truth on the altar of niceness.

As long as we listen to the people who - as usual without a shred of evidence - have spent decades of research on flimsy grounds, we will not get anywhere. These people have no place in a factual discussion unless they can show evidence-based data. We all know only too well that they cannot. Everything they have put forward so far has been refuted, there is hardly anything new.

When the comparison with religion is drawn here: It is the climate deniers who are in a religious system. Believing something even though there is no evidence for it and it has been disproved hundreds and thousands of times. But for the sake of friendliness, it is still not permissible to call these people what they are.
Ah yes, the classic "blame everybody else" technique. Just what the problem requires, finger pointing, blaming and shaming.....
 

YorkshireBear

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I can't even get my work colleagues to turn their computer monitors off for the days on end they don't use them due to WFH so frankly don't know how anything else will change!
 

61653 HTAFC

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One of the main problems with the climate crisis is our niceness. We allow opinions to be treated as facts for fear of otherwise "offending" someone. We sacrifice truth on the altar of niceness.

As long as we listen to the people who - as usual without a shred of evidence - have spent decades of research on flimsy grounds, we will not get anywhere. These people have no place in a factual discussion unless they can show evidence-based data. We all know only too well that they cannot. Everything they have put forward so far has been refuted, there is hardly anything new.

When the comparison with religion is drawn here: It is the climate deniers who are in a religious system. Believing something even though there is no evidence for it and it has been disproved hundreds and thousands of times. But for the sake of friendliness, it is still not permissible to call these people what they are.
That's the problem with these trustafarians throwing paint at artwork and gluing themselves to roads... they're far too nice. :rolleyes:
 

87electric

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Never mind rail fares, if there's a "climate emergency" then why are we paying carbon based prices for increasingly non-carbon energy production. Wasn't greener energy supposed to be cheaper? Or why are EVs considerably more expensive than their petrol equivalents? Or why aren't solar panels and heat pumps cheap enough for everyone?

Its funny how everything that could make a drastic difference is getting more expensive, whilst we the little people are told that everything we do that brings a little comfort or happiness is bringing about the end of the world. Or at least this is how it feels to a lot of people, and it is exactly why people are growing apathetic or even opposed to climate change measures. If the people gluing themselves to things, throwing yellow chemicals about or sitting on trains or in front of buses had even a slither of common sense they would understand this and direct their protests and actions in this direction.

The best bit is that the phrase "climate emergency" isn't even a scientific one, it was first used in anger by a local council in Australia back in 2016. It bet they are getting a buzz out of being the ones to declare a "climate emergency" that has millions of people panicking
Exactly this. The Western world is very, very close to having a carbon footprint “tax” introduced to everybody and it will be based on their own personal situation via usage data. Limits will be set to your transport travel per day/month/year. All for the benefits of the greater good.
A stealth travel lockdown. The idea of 15 minute cities has already sown that seed. People may scoff it can’t happen here. But no-one can deny it isn’t being thought about by our leaders.
 

bahnause

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Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
667
Location
bülach (switzerland)
That's the problem with these trustafarians throwing paint at artwork and gluing themselves to roads... they're far too nice. :rolleyes:

Your choice of words shows the obvious: You have no science-based argument that would say anything about climate change. Instead, a superficial and sweeping insult towards a group. The real problem remains conveniently unmentioned.
 

uglymonkey

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2018
Messages
611
The Earth's climate is changing over time, always.Humans are accelerating that change. The tipping point was about 10-15 years ago. It's now pointless, any changes we make from here in won't make a scrap of difference. It's fixed and irreversible.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
29,432
Location
UK
That's the problem with these trustafarians throwing paint at artwork and gluing themselves to roads... they're far too nice. :rolleyes:
Well compared to blowing up fuel refineries or petrol stations, they're extremely nice.
 
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