December 2023 Timetable Change

[bramling]

The Hertford Loop is not a good benchmark. GTR have their own issues

Indeed it has the worst off-peak service since the mid 90s in terms of frequency, though at times overall capacity is better.

 

[barbette165]

Chiltern has been updated on RTT. The missing Saturday morning northbound journeys from Banbury have re-appeared.

 

[chrisp37]

While my personal interest is in the Sutton & Mole Valley lines being improved, I'm happy to help contribute to any lobbying we can do for the SWR lines, as I have used those in the past. When I was using them from Bookham, it was flat 1 tph stoppers all day, so I'm pleased to hear it has improved at least in the peak. Without derailing this thread any further, it is a shame that changes are deferred another year. I believe that the railway has to entice commuters back onto trains with better services, rather than waiting for them to come back and then improving the service (which won't happen, with so much WFH being facilitated).

Thank you. I'm still not sure how best to go about it, or when, but it's good to know that there are others who are willing to be involved! I might, in the meantime, just continue my emails with SWR customer services. Better than nothing ...

 

[rdm111]

Niche I know, but it looks like Newhaven Harbour gets back an hourly service Monday - Friday, with service every 30 minutes in the peak

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Details of the TPE timetable have been circulated by management to staff and trade union representatives today, with a caveat that it is still to be approved by Rail North Partnership.

Anglo-Scottish services – WCML

• No Change



Newcastle – Edinburgh – ECML

• East Linton calls may be ‘switched on’, with the station likely to open during this timetable

South Route

• A full hourly Cleethorpes – Liverpool Lime Street service worked entirely by Class 185s in a mixture of three and six car formations.

North Route

The following hourly off-peak pattern will apply. This also runs all day on Saturdays and Sundays.

• Newcastle – Liverpool Lime Street (with slightly long dwell at Manchester Victoria) worked by Class 802s.
• Scarborough – York with limited through workings to Leeds and Manchester, worked by Class 185s and Class 802s
• Saltburn – Manchester Airport worked by Class 185s (mostly doubles)
• Hull – Manchester Piccadilly calling all stations Leeds to Huddersfield, then fast to Piccadilly, worked by Class 185s
• Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield stopper (Through stopper all the way to Leeds, Monday to Friday peaks and evenings only)

The following pattern applies Monday – Friday peak times:

• Newcastle – Liverpool Lime Street (with long dwell at Manchester Victoria) worked by Class 802s.
• Scarborough – York with a number of through workings to Leeds and Manchester, worked by Class 185s and Class 802s
• Saltburn – Manchester Airport worked by Class 185s (mostly doubles)
• Hull – Manchester Victoria, express westbound, but still calling all stations between Huddersfield and Leeds eastbound
• Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield stopper, extending to York via Wakefield at 0658/0858/1458/1658 each way including Saturdays, but not Sundays
• Additional Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield stopper to create half hourly frequency which is then express to Leeds eastbound, all stations between Leeds and Huddersfield westbound

Confirmed also that:

This timetable expected to last until December 2024.

Class 68s and Mk5s to be removed from service and placed in to storage. Suggestion is that services will be in the hands of 185s and 802s until 2027 after which further options will be explored.

 

[CAF397]

This timetable expected to last until December 2024.

Class 68s and Mk5s to be removed from service and placed in to storage. Suggestion is that services will be in the hands of 185s and 802s until 2027 after which further options will be explored.

Well that's thoroughly depressing.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Well that's thoroughly depressing.

Only 2 express trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester on Saturdays, and midweek daytimes, the exact times which are getting busier and trains are already overcrowded, is madness.

I understand why, but it's still madness.

It will create more overcrowding especially when one rocks up as a 3 car, which it inevitably will on a regular basis, or one just gets cancelled for one reason or another.

And I've also just noticed that the Hull alternates between Victoria or Piccadilly at peak times. This I assume is to allow the additional Piccadilly to Huddersfield stopper to run.

That leaves only 1 express train per hour to Piccadilly, which is of course the main interchange for onward connections and the Airport, and always the most popular Manchester destination for passengers.

All the above combined will almost certainly lead to overcrowding on the stopping trains giving an inferior service to the intermediate smaller stations.

 

[AndrewE]

Only 2 express trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester on Saturdays, and midweek daytimes, the exact times which are getting busier and trains are already overcrowded, is madness.

I understand why, but it's still madness.

It will create more overcrowding especially when one rocks up as a 3 car, which it inevitably will on a regular basis, or one just gets cancelled for one reason or another.

but without extra capacity any increase in train frequency will collapse anyway - like Operation Princess, which I predicted because that is exactly what happened to our transPennine trains about 15 or 20 years before, when one 6- or 8-coach l/h train was replaced by 3 2- or 3-car DMU's an hour.
Much better service (apparently) but no extra capacity will lead to gross overcrowding.
What extra capacity will be put in to replace the withdrawn L/H train sets?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

What extra capacity will be put in to replace the withdrawn L/H train sets?

None.

They are claiming the rest of the fleet will be sufficient. They probably know it isn't, but the DfT orders on behalf of HM Treasury will be to say it is!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Class 68s and Mk5s to be removed from service and placed in to storage. Suggestion is that services will be in the hands of 185s and 802s until 2027 after which further options will be explored.

185s, 397s and 802s.

 

[ainsworth74]

Please use this thread for discussion of the 68+Mk5 decision and the implications for TPEs rolling stock. This thread is for discussion of the timetable please

 

[DanNCL]

Details of the TPE timetable have been circulated by management to staff and trade union representatives today, with a caveat that it is still to be approved by Rail North Partnership.



Confirmed also that:

This timetable expected to last until December 2024.

Class 68s and Mk5s to be removed from service and placed in to storage. Suggestion is that services will be in the hands of 185s and 802s until 2027 after which further options will be explored.

Noticing the absence of the 2-hourly Newcastle - Piccadilly from that list, which currently accounts for the vast majority of Chester le Street calls. Will the Liverpool services all call at Chester le Street or is this another attempt at station closure by stealth?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Noticing the absence of the 2-hourly Newcastle - Piccadilly from that list, which currently accounts for the vast majority of Chester le Street calls. Will the Liverpool services all call at Chester le Street or is this another attempt at station closure by stealth?

No idea of the timetable, suspect until it gets loaded up into Realtime Trains we'll be none the wiser.

 

[CAF397]

Noticing the absence of the 2-hourly Newcastle - Piccadilly from that list, which currently accounts for the vast majority of Chester le Street calls. Will the Liverpool services all call at Chester le Street or is this another attempt at station closure by stealth?

The Liverpool-Newcastle looks to be having longer dwells at Manchester Victoria again (as per the covid timetable). Does this mean it will pick up the path of the 2nd Newcastle, and it's associated station stops?

 

[td97]

The Liverpool-Newcastle looks to be having longer dwells at Manchester Victoria again (as per the covid timetable). Does this mean it will pick up the path of the 2nd Newcastle, and it's associated station stops?

Presumably will have to call at both Lea Green and Newton le Willows, so misses it's path at Victoria and has an approx 15 minute dwell time eastbound for the next path.

 

[Gemz91]

Apologies it’s probably been mentioned, but I couldn’t see anything scrolling through 13 pages.

Are the LNER Cleethorpes starting in December? Can’t see them mentioned anywhere.

 

[PGAT]

Apologies it’s probably been mentioned, but I couldn’t see anything scrolling through 13 pages.

Are the LNER Cleethorpes starting in December? Can’t see them mentioned anywhere.

Nope, don’t think so

 

[swt_passenger]

Apologies it’s probably been mentioned, but I couldn’t see anything scrolling through 13 pages.

Are the LNER Cleethorpes starting in December? Can’t see them mentioned anywhere.

In the 2022/23 thread specifically about the LNER Cleethorpes service, when discussing it before testing in June this year, it was said it would start May 2024. Then later in the thread May 2026 was mentioned…

 

[class397tpe]

Only 2 express trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester on Saturdays, and midweek daytimes, the exact times which are getting busier and trains are already overcrowded, is madness.

I understand why, but it's still madness.

It will create more overcrowding especially when one rocks up as a 3 car, which it inevitably will on a regular basis, or one just gets cancelled for one reason or another.

And I've also just noticed that the Hull alternates between Victoria or Piccadilly at peak times. This I assume is to allow the additional Piccadilly to Huddersfield stopper to run.

That leaves only 1 express train per hour to Piccadilly, which is of course the main interchange for onward connections and the Airport, and always the most popular Manchester destination for passengers.

All the above combined will almost certainly lead to overcrowding on the stopping trains giving an inferior service to the intermediate smaller stations.

I'm a bit confused as to why such drastic cuts are required tbh - e.g. Looking at TPEs performance for the past couple of weeks through Leeds, it seems vastly improved with very few cancellations or part cancellations. Feels to me like the time to implement such cuts would have been a few months ago, and they aren't needed anymore.

Looks like the SWR xx50 Waterloo to Salisbury service is returning in December

sadly the houslow loop Waterloo-Waterloo services are still only in the peak, meaning stations like Brentford and Kew bridge only get 2tph off-peak and on weekends. Great with all the new development going up there...

 

[Gemz91]

In the 2022/23 thread specifically about the LNER Cleethorpes service, when discussing it before testing in June this year, it was said it would start May 2024. Then later in the thread May 2026 was mentioned…

Cheers, didn’t realise there was a thread dedicated to the LNER Cleethorpes services. I’ll go and hunt it out now.

 

[swt_passenger]

Cheers, didn’t realise there was a thread dedicated to the LNER Cleethorpes services. I’ll go and hunt it out now.

Sorry, I could have easily added a link:

Kings Cross to Cleethorpes - LNER

Does anyone know if KGX to CLE - CLE to KGX will be starting or if it still is? This article says it was meant to start this year, but there have been no updates since. I live along the Lincoln section of the line and it would be weird to see Azumas! Thanks!

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[CAF397]

I'm a bit confused as to why such drastic cuts are required tbh - e.g. Looking at TPEs performance for the past couple of weeks through Leeds, it seems vastly improved with very few cancellations or part cancellations. Feels to me like the time to implement such cuts would have been a few months ago, and they aren't needed anymore.

Rest day working being introduced has resulted in a near "normal" service.

But this masks the underlying problems, and any weeks of ASLEF overtime bans highlights this.

In order to reduce the reliance on rest day working, get existing drivers trained on routes and traction, and trainee drivers passed out quicker (though with a reduced timetable they'll all be fighting to get on the same trains). Apparently this timetable is in place for 12 months.

 

[swr444]

sadly the houslow loop Waterloo-Waterloo services are still only in the peak, meaning stations like Brentford and Kew bridge only get 2tph off-peak and on weekends. Great with all the new development going up there...

Same at Wandsworth Town. Mortlake is a very busy station that needs more than 2tph also. The Epsom line as mentioned before still will be only 2tph which is a big let down. Unfortunately until the 701s come in, they don't have much scope to increase services (the only ones they could keep running are the hounslow loop services as the trains they use for that sit in sidings during the off peak times).

 

[387star]

It's starting to seem ludicrous the southern trains from Portsmouth to London stop every station between Barnham and Horsham and also at Redhill for good measure on Sundays! They are only once an hour and extremely busy Sunday mornings from Chichester although they do at least add coaches at Barnham. With more leisure travellers I'm sure a fast Barnham to Horsham would be welcome on Sundays

Also the last Victoria to Chichester on Sundays is painfully early whilst SWR manage to run much later to Havant

 

[shakermaker_86]

Thank you. I'm still not sure how best to go about it, or when, but it's good to know that there are others who are willing to be involved! I might, in the meantime, just continue my emails with SWR customer services. Better than nothing ...

Likewise, more than than happy to continue supporting any petitions or lobbying efforts to try and see service improvements. Will try and make the next meet the manager session at Waterloo and see what they say in regards to possible future service improvements.

Same at Wandsworth Town. Mortlake is a very busy station that needs more than 2tph also. The Epsom line as mentioned before still will be only 2tph which is a big let down. Unfortunately until the 701s come in, they don't have much scope to increase services (the only ones they could keep running are the hounslow loop services as the trains they use for that sit in sidings during the off peak times).

Think having the full fleet of 701s eventually on board is the best hope for seeing service improvements across the board on SWR suburban routes. I hadn't realised stations like Mortlake and North Sheen etc. also only had 2tph, I'm rather surprised given how close they are to Central London where the general expectation is at least a 15 minute turn up and go service I'd have thought.

 

[D6700]

I am very sad to see the TPE massacre of their north route timetable. Taken from a little earlier in the thread, the pathetic 2024 off peak hourly service is apparently:

• Newcastle – Liverpool Lime Street
• Scarborough – York
• Saltburn – Manchester Airport
• Hull – Manchester Piccadilly calling all stations Leeds to Huddersfield
• Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield stopper

For historical comparison, I've attached extracts of the standard off peak patterns in the May 2007 and May 2016 timetables to illustrate just how far backwards they are taking things.

 

[johntea]

Castleford are getting quite excited about the prospect of a direct train to York and Manchester although it'll be interesting to see the timings compared to just changing at Leeds...

Any ideas on the calling points Castleford - York?

 

[Halish Railway]

Any ideas on the calling points Castleford - York?

Non-stop. I suspect performance and the journey times are at the mercy of conflicting trains coming from the Selby diversion.

 

[London Trains]

Same at Wandsworth Town. Mortlake is a very busy station that needs more than 2tph also. The Epsom line as mentioned before still will be only 2tph which is a big let down. Unfortunately until the 701s come in, they don't have much scope to increase services (the only ones they could keep running are the hounslow loop services as the trains they use for that sit in sidings during the off peak times).

I think the Windsor services should additionally stop at Mortlake (irrespective of the Hounslow loop services returning). For its usage and location, even its old 4tph service is quite low but 2tph is ridiculous, and it is worth improving the service even if it adds a couple of minutes to the Windsor services.

Restoring both the Hounslow loop services and 4tph via Epsom is entirely possible with the units currently available as these services all run during the peak with the units sitting in sidings during the day.

 

[PGAT]

Restoring both the Hounslow loop services and 4tph via Epsom is entirely possible with the units currently available as these services all run during the peak with the units sitting in sidings during the day.

That’s depressing to hear, but not too surprising as the mileage on the 455s will probably need to be kept quite low