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Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

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I hope this is what happens, the capacity atm is awful and those 5-car IETs desperately need freeing up. Could also put them on the Cardiff-Portsmouth services and get some troublesome 166s out of the picture

Heading up to scotrail feels like the most likely outcome though
Great for bashers! :D
Replacing IETs Castles on GWR?
 
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Clarence Yard

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I don’t think the DfT want them for any of their operations, given the expense and their (so far) less than reliable service. If Scotland or Wales don’t want them, they are going abroad.
 

Energy

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Tri modes will be terrible off wires for passenger services. The class 93 will have 6200hp using overhead electricity but only 540hp using battery and 1200hp using diesel. Bi and tri mode locos are still only useful for last mile freight services.
It will be on wired lines. The diesel and battery power isn't enough to do much more than shunting.
You can't think of it as diesel or battery. The 1200hp diesel is for the balancing speed and the extra 540hp battery is for hills and to speed up getting it to that speed.
 

GusB

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It will be on wired lines. The diesel and battery power isn't enough to do much more than shunting.
Is this really the case? The power output of the 93's diesel engine is similar to that of a class 27, which was certainly capable of hauling a 5 car train.
 

CW2

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Is this really the case? The power output of the 93's diesel engine is similar to that of a class 27, which was certainly capable of hauling a 5 car train.
Whilst class 27s were endlessly entertaining, I don't think they should be the benchmark for a modern reliable train service.
 

43096

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I don’t think the DfT want them for any of their operations, given the expense and their (so far) less than reliable service. If Scotland or Wales don’t want them, they are going abroad.
DfT will need to consider if binning off stock after only a few years is a good thing to do given the potential long term ramifications for lease contracts if the risk is high for the finders.
 

JonathanH

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Yes, less sets, more carriages with a few slightly less capacity as the extra carriage is a driving trailer. Hypothetically of course
The slab end of the first class coach means that the extra driving trailer isn't very helpful.
 

Neptune

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Hypothetically, can a mk5a set run with a driving trailer at both ends?
Yes, less sets, more carriages with a few slightly less capacity as the extra carriage is a driving trailer. Hypothetically of course
This is massively confusing from the point of view of why would you do it? Could you expand on what you mean please?

For reference, if you‘re going to couple a loco to the DT then why not just run them as they are designed. The First Class coach is designed to be at the loco end with the coupling arrangement. Anywhere else in the formation and it won’t couple up therefore rendering it useless.
 

Chester1

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You can't think of it as diesel or battery. The 1200hp diesel is for the balancing speed and the extra 540hp battery is for hills and to speed up getting it to that speed.

That 1200hp on flat sections and 1740hp uphill isn't suitable for main line services. Maybe someone with expertise can say whether it would be sufficient for something like Grand Central's unwired, slower sections?
 

pompeyfan

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If someone wanted to, could you turn some sets and have a 68 in the middle of 2 sets? Making a 10 coach train? Would the TMS on the 68 have a meltdown? And how badly would the formation perform?
 

172007

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This is massively confusing from the point of view of why would you do it? Could you expand on what you mean please?

For reference, if you‘re going to couple a loco to the DT then why not just run them as they are designed. The First Class coach is designed to be at the loco end with the coupling arrangement. Anywhere else in the formation and it won’t couple up therefore rendering it useless.
Order.

Loco, DT, TSO, TSO, TSO, TSO then either an extra TSO or so then DT. Clearly you can have as I opened with a DT at both ends.

First class declassified or refitted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The slab end of the first class coach means that the extra driving trailer isn't very helpful.
loco, DT, TSO........ DT

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If someone wanted to, could you turn some sets and have a 68 in the middle of 2 sets? Making a 10 coach train? Would the TMS on the 68 have a meltdown? And how badly would the formation perform?
That's where is was going but leaving the loco on the usual position and also utilising what would be redundant DT's by having some sets with a DT both ends.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

So it's possible to have 9 sets with 7 coaches, some with 2 x DT at the ends plus 2 spare coaches and a DT.
 
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Peter Sarf

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Order.

Loco, DT, TSO, TSO, TSO, TSO then either an extra TSO or so then DT. Clearly you can have as I opened with a DT at both ends.

First class declassified or refitted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


loco, DT, TSO........ DT

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


That's where is was going but leaving the loco on the usual position and also utilising what would be redundant DT's by having some sets with a DT both ends.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

So it's possible to have 9 sets with 7 coaches, some with 2 x DT at the ends plus 2 spare coaches and a DT.
If I remember correctly the First Class trailer does not have a gangway connection at the loco end also the coupling is not the same as that between each coach. So if you wanted to re-use the TFs you would have to alter them - easier than altering the Driving trailer of course. Or I suppose you could have the two TFs in the middle with no gangway connection - ending up like a pair of five car IETs !. So the 68 might as well go there in the middle.

Question is regarding your idea - would a 68 work coupled to the cab end of a driving trailer ?.
 

Chester1

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If I remember correctly the First Class trailer does not have a gangway connection at the loco end also the coupling is not the same as that between each coach. So if you wanted to re-use the TFs you would have to alter them - easier than altering the Driving trailer of course. Or I suppose you could have the two TFs in the middle with no gangway connection - ending up like a pair of five car IETs !. So the 68 might as well go there in the middle.

Question is regarding your idea - would a 68 work coupled to the cab end of a driving trailer ?.

None of this resolves the reliability problem. If they were reliable the easiest solution would have been for TPE to get electric locos and ditch the 397s instead. 397s would be much easier to rehome. As @Clarence Yard has said, the DfT want nothing to do with them. TfW are sorted until ~2030. Its a question of whether Scotrail or an open access operator will take them.
 

Neptune

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Order.

Loco, DT, TSO, TSO, TSO, TSO then either an extra TSO or so then DT. Clearly you can have as I opened with a DT at both ends.

First class declassified or refitted.

loco, DT, TSO........ DT

That's where is was going but leaving the loco on the usual position and also utilising what would be redundant DT's by having some sets with a DT both ends.

So it's possible to have 9 sets with 7 coaches, some with 2 x DT at the ends plus 2 spare coaches and a DT.
I’m sorry but what is this a solution to and whose problem is it solving? The whole concept looks fraught with desperation to use them at any cost regardless of cost or implications of splitting up fixed formation sets.

The TF cannot be used within a set due to the couplings at the loco end and as mentioned, it doesn’t have a gangway. So if you’re breaking sets up to lengthen them then you’d retain the coach designed to be coupled to the loco (ie the TF) and bin off any excess DT’s.
 

61653 HTAFC

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None of this resolves the reliability problem. If they were reliable the easiest solution would have been for TPE to get electric locos and ditch the 397s instead. 397s would be much easier to rehome. As @Clarence Yard has said, the DfT want nothing to do with them. TfW are sorted until ~2030. Its a question of whether Scotrail or an open access operator will take them.
The thing with the reliability is a bit of a chicken and egg situation: are they under-utilised because they're unreliable, or are they unreliable because they're under-utilised? Pretty much all new trains have a spell of poor reliability at the start while crews and fitters familiarise themselves. Because the ongoing issues at TPE have meant the use of the Nova3 sets has been so sporadic, they've had no chance to "bed in".
 

Greybeard33

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I don’t think the DfT want them for any of their operations, given the expense and their (so far) less than reliable service. If Scotland or Wales don’t want them, they are going abroad.
Would any operator abroad want unreliable fixed formations of coaches in the cramped British loading gauge?
 

Peter Sarf

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None of this resolves the reliability problem. If they were reliable the easiest solution would have been for TPE to get electric locos and ditch the 397s instead. 397s would be much easier to rehome. As @Clarence Yard has said, the DfT want nothing to do with them. TfW are sorted until ~2030. Its a question of whether Scotrail or an open access operator will take them.
Oh yes, that is the elephant in the room. Although (below)
The thing with the reliability is a bit of a chicken and egg situation: are they under-utilised because they're unreliable, or are they unreliable because they're under-utilised? Pretty much all new trains have a spell of poor reliability at the start while crews and fitters familiarise themselves. Because the ongoing issues at TPE have meant the use of the Nova3 sets has been so sporadic, they've had no chance to "bed in".
History dealt the TPE Mk5s a bad hand. They were ordered because the Hitachi Bi-Modes (802) were on a long lead time. Trouble is the 802s were a design already in use so were less likely to have teething problems associated with a new type. The teething problems for the Mk5s lasted long enough that the 802s appeared and were in service (successfully ?) while the Mk5s were still in the early stages of the reliability and learning curve. Once the 802s were successfully introduced and Covid meant fewer trains were needed the Mk5s were at a disadvantage. A further disadvantage would then be lack of use as you say. I wonder if to an extent no-one person/body owned any problems - after all this was a set of coaches from CAF and a locomotive from Stadler. A further disadvantage COULD be that drivers were keen to learn and retain knowledge of a type of traction used by other employers - possibly true ?.

There was the fragility of the connectors that link the 68 to the Trailer First, this was replaced (earlier this year) which improved things a lot iirc.

The TPE Mk5s suffer from being a microfleet that was not based on a proven design. The proven design has swept all competition aside and is implemented almost everywhere.
 

JonathanH

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Regauge for Belfast - Dublin? I guess a lot depends on lease or sale price.
I'd be intrigued to understand how that could happen.

Do you think Beacon Rail would make an unsolicited call to Translink saying 'we've got some trains you might want to use for a major uplift in frequency that you aren't currently planning'?

Alternatively, does someone at Translink approach Beacon Rail and start talking about all the steps needed for reguaging and taking on the fleet?

I'm not convinced either of those approaches is going to happen.
 

AndrewE

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I'd be intrigued to understand how that could happen.
Do you think Beacon Rail would make an unsolicited call to Translink saying 'we've got some trains you might want to use for a major uplift in frequency that you aren't currently planning'?
That is the killer.
Alternatively, does someone at Translink approach Beacon Rail and start talking about all the steps needed for reguaging and taking on the fleet?
Wouldn't be at all difficult, loads of BR stock has gone to Ireland in the past and whole couchette trains to Spain used to be re-bogied for a different gauge every night - but I do acknowledge that the stock was a) very "old school" and thus relatively simple - no electronics etc - and b) designed with this in mind. Finding suitable traction is a different kettle of fish, however.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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I'd be intrigued to understand how that could happen.

Do you think Beacon Rail would make an unsolicited call to Translink saying 'we've got some trains you might want to use for a major uplift in frequency that you aren't currently planning'?

Alternatively, does someone at Translink approach Beacon Rail and start talking about all the steps needed for reguaging and taking on the fleet?

I'm not convinced either of those approaches is going to happen.
The Belfast to Dublin Enterprise is jointly run by Translink and IE, so there'd be even more bureaucracy to deal with.
 

Trainbike46

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I'd be intrigued to understand how that could happen.

Do you think Beacon Rail would make an unsolicited call to Translink saying 'we've got some trains you might want to use for a major uplift in frequency that you aren't currently planning'?

Alternatively, does someone at Translink approach Beacon Rail and start talking about all the steps needed for reguaging and taking on the fleet?

I'm not convinced either of those approaches is going to happen.
Officially, both Irish Rail and Translink have long-term plans to increase the frequency of the enterprise service. On the NI side, I think one thing that needs to be sorted is the new Weaver's Cross station, which will increase platform capacity for turning around the Enterprise service. It is possibly also awaiting approval from the NI government, if so that certainly isn't forthcoming anytime soon.

In Dublin, there may be some need for changes to fit the extra services around the DART.

So I could see Translink being interested if the price is right, but even then only in a few years at the earliest
 

Chester1

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I'd be intrigued to understand how that could happen.

Do you think Beacon Rail would make an unsolicited call to Translink saying 'we've got some trains you might want to use for a major uplift in frequency that you aren't currently planning'?

Alternatively, does someone at Translink approach Beacon Rail and start talking about all the steps needed for reguaging and taking on the fleet?

I'm not convinced either of those approaches is going to happen.

The same could be said about any use outside of England. Most export options will require some modifications.

Officially, both Irish Rail and Translink have long-term plans to increase the frequency of the enterprise service. On the NI side, I think one thing that needs to be sorted is the new Weaver's Cross station, which will increase platform capacity for turning around the Enterprise service. It is possibly also awaiting approval from the NI government, if so that certainly isn't forthcoming anytime soon.

In Dublin, there may be some need for changes to fit the extra services around the DART.

So I could see Translink being interested if the price is right, but even then only in a few years at the earliest

12 sets wouldn't quite be enough for a half hourly service either, especially with current reliability. I was speculating. I suspect they could spend 3 or 4 years in storage.
 

Energy

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History dealt the TPE Mk5s a bad hand. They were ordered because the Hitachi Bi-Modes (802) were on a long lead time. Trouble is the 802s were a design already in use so were less likely to have teething problems associated with a new type. The teething problems for the Mk5s lasted long enough that the 802s appeared and were in service (successfully ?) while the Mk5s were still in the early stages of the reliability and learning curve.
The idea with the Nova 3 sets was that the 68s were already proven and the mk5s already ordered for Caledonian Sleeper so they should have been a fairly quick entry to service with minimal issues, especially as they could start training early on the 68s and push pull on the 68s had been proven at Chiltern.

Nova 3s were planned for Autumn 2018 and the Nova 1s Summer 2019. The Nova 3s were would have provided the needed capacity boost and many of the class 185s would have left after the Nova 1s arrived.

The first mk5a sets got delivered to Velim and the UK in March and May 2018 respectively but only achieved fault free running and handover in April 2019, as such the first service was late August 2019 only a month before the 802s in late September 2019.

The TPE tender unfortunately prohibited any 170s (or Sprinters) joining the franchise, otherwise the Scotrail 170s temporarily joining TPE before eventually moving to Northern after the 802s arrived would have been better than the mk5as.
 

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