Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[Energy]

The DfT wanted 442s as a push pull unit loco hauled. It’s well known.

First Group ideally wanted all 802s but Hitachi couldn’t deliver by 2019. They then went with brand new Mk5a stock.

Exactly, the specification didn't specify loco hauled.

I would suspect that the MK5a coaches would be better doing a route like Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street,

I'd be concerned about the weight of the 68s limiting their speeds, Norwich has some SP speeds around it.

The best for Norwich to Liverpool is to split it at Nottingham, run spare 755s on Norwich to Nottingham and double up the 158s on Nottingham to Liverpool.

 

[RobShipway]

Exactly, the specification didn't specify loco hauled.

I'd be concerned about the weight of the 68s limiting their speeds, Norwich has some SP speeds around it.

The best for Norwich to Liverpool is to split it at Nottingham, run spare 755s on Norwich to Nottingham and double up the 158s on Nottingham to Liverpool.

There is not really anywhere suitable where you wouldn't be limiting the speed of the class 68 working with the MK5A coaches. The only other answer would be working for Transport for Wales, doing services such as Holyhead to Manchester Airport or Birmingham International which today on some of those services is operated by class 150 units, but I know at times is also operated by class 158 and I believe class 175. Although the class 175 seems to be today more on the Cardiff to Holyhead route working alongside class 197 units.

 

[Energy]

There is not really anywhere suitable where you wouldn't be limiting the speed of the class 68 working with the MK5A coaches.

Then you've got a solution looking for a problem. It isn't a great loss if the mk5as get exported.

 

[HSTEd]

If anyone wanted to order a dozen more sleeper Mark 5s you might be able to salvage a dozen or so to remake the Cornish Riviera into fixed formation sets. That could allow significant operational savings

But I guess reopening the line for a dozen vehicles is hardly likely to be economic.
To the scrapline it is

 

[Clansman]

If they weren't good enough for TPE to plough cash in to fix and put up with their expensive running costs and unreliability, why would any other TOC?

A juicy leasing price perhaps in exchange?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

This thread appears to be a solution looking for a problem I’m afraid.

 

[12LDA28C]

It's been announced that TPE will be losing their Class 68s/Mk5 sets from December this year.

This thread appears to be a solution looking for a problem I’m afraid.

Given today's announcement, not so much.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Given today's announcement, not so much.

I’m referring to that with all the ideas of TOCs they could be dumped on.

 

[Elecman]

Yeowarts Open Access Stirling-London service is looking for temporary stock

 

[Clansman]

This thread appears to be a solution looking for a problem I’m afraid.

100%

"Give them to X or Y TOC to replace Z fleet .... (without regard for the fact that they will have to put up with the same rubbish TPE had to put up with) ... Easy. "

 

[randyrippley]

Fill the mk5 fleet with concrete and dump them off Dawlish as beach protection.

 

[Snow1964]

I’m referring to that with all the ideas of TOCs they could be dumped on.

I'd be concerned about the weight of the 68s limiting their speeds, Norwich has some SP speeds around it.

There are a few TOCs that are struggling for capacity, but they possibly wouldn't be their first choice, although if they are a better choice than overcrowded services is a debatable judgement.

Could easily see DfT allocate them to GWR, until more suitable stock comes along, could probably work Cardiff-Penzance, and even some Cardiff-Portsmouth workings (to free up 165s). Wouldn't be able to use SP differentials, but probably not going to make much difference on a 3+ hour journey with multiple stops.

But if really wanted to get out the crayons, and draw something creative, could in theory use mk 5 Cardiff-London, how about 2 sets back to back with a class 93 on one end.

Actually there is probably a case for making up some modern 8-10car excursion stock sets, with push-pull cabs each end, to cover everything from festivals, events, major sporting events etc.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Could easily see DfT allocate them to GWR, until more suitable stock comes along, could probably work Cardiff-Penzance, and even some Cardiff-Portsmouth workings (to free up 165s). Wouldn't be able to use SP differentials, but probably not going to make much difference on a 3+ hour journey with multiple stops.

Coaches without any locos aren’t much use. DRS is keen to have its 68s back to bin off the rest of their heritage fleet.

As for use on GWR, bearing in mind the sets aren’t off lease till end of March 2024 and the period Dec 23 to March 24 is likely to be spent getting the sets ready for hand back.

Then no new operator is going to want to take them on until the cracks have been repaired. Then you start driver and depot training along with route clearance and you maybe get them ready for another operator in May 2025.

Cascaded rolling stock from TfW is going to be available much sooner for GWR which doesn’t require training or route clearance.

 

[JonathanH]

Could easily see DfT allocate them to GWR, until more suitable stock comes along, could probably work Cardiff-Penzance, and even some Cardiff-Portsmouth workings (to free up 165s). Wouldn't be able to use SP differentials, but probably not going to make much difference on a 3+ hour journey with multiple stops.

The DfT don't own them. They simply aren't the DfT's responsibility to 'allocate'.

I fail to see how another operator is going to be able to introduce this fleet. Why would any operator succeed where TPE hasn't been able to run this fleet? The problems and reputation will go before them.

Fratton would be a terrible place for these trains to spend their time overnight. Westbury and St Phillips Marsh may be a little bit better as they aren't so close to residential areas.

There would be a huge training need to move from units to locomotive hauled stock.

Actually there is probably a case for making up some modern 8-10car excursion stock sets, with push-pull cabs each end, to cover everything from festivals, events, major sporting events etc.

There is no chance they would be leased for such work. It just would not make sense from a financial perspective.

I realise that there may be a view that a rental void triggers a giveaway price, but realistically I can't see why the owners would agree to that.

But if really wanted to get out the crayons, and draw something creative, could in theory use mk 5 Cardiff-London, how about 2 sets back to back with a class 93 on one end.

There is the problem of having no gangway connection between the two coaching sets.

The GB railway has precisely zero obligation to use these trains. They don't really fit with how the railway works. The railway doesn't need to go out of its way to find them a future role.

 

[Iskra]

Could XC use the Mk5's with 88's (or similar) between Manchester and Birmingham, to free up Voyagers for elsewhere? I still think TFW is the most likely though.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Could XC use the Mk5's with 88's (or similar) between Manchester and Birmingham, to free up Voyagers for elsewhere? I still think TFW is the most likely though.

I’m not sure why there is a sudden desire to use these trains somewhere else in GB. XC itself is getting rid of rolling stock not increasing the fleet.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's been announced that TPE will be losing their Class 68s/Mk5 sets from December this year.



Given today's announcement, not so much.

See below, there is a detailed attachment in that post. It is what has triggered most of the posts above yours.

Details of the TPE timetable have been circulated by management to staff and trade union representatives today, with a caveat that it is still to be approved by Rail North Partnership.



Confirmed also that:

This timetable expected to last until December 2024.

Class 68s and Mk5s to be removed from service and placed in to storage. Suggestion is that services will be in the hands of 185s and 802s until 2027 after which further options will be explored.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There is not really anywhere suitable where you wouldn't be limiting the speed of the class 68 working with the MK5A coaches.

On that front, they're a bit like the 21(?) 185s which TPE were originally planning to hand back. Like the 185s they're ideal for the route(s) they were originally procured for, but a bit of a clunky solution for anywhere else.

You really couldn't make it up!

 

[Iskra]

I’m not sure why there is a sudden desire to use these trains somewhere else in GB. XC itself is getting rid of rolling stock not increasing the fleet.

Because there's a lack of capacity at several TOC's. The HST's are going despite their capacity being needed, for political reasons rather than practical.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Because there's a lack of capacity at several TOC's. The HST's are going despite their capacity being needed, for political reasons rather than practical.

Sums it up. Political reasons for HSTs etc going means the Mk5s will not be of any use. Capacity needs being fulfilled only happens if there is a desire to spend !.

 

[Energy]

Sums it up. Political reasons for HSTs etc going means the Mk5s will not be of any use. Capacity needs being fulfilled only happens if there is a desire to spend !.

Kind of, the 769s departure without replacement has left the west short of stock but the removal of short HSTs only used up the slack in the IET fleet and brought required availability to the contracted amount.

The latter is a better use of money for the taxpayer.

The DfT don't own them. They simply aren't the DfT's responsibility to 'allocate'.

I fail to see how another operator is going to be able to introduce this fleet. Why would any operator succeed where TPE hasn't been able to run this fleet? The problems and reputation will go before them.

Fratton would be a terrible place for these trains to spend their time overnight. Westbury and St Phillips Marsh may be a little bit better as they aren't so close to residential areas.

There would be a huge training need to move from units to locomotive hauled stock.

Indeed, Beacon Rail took on the risk that the stock would end up with no home. It's their problem to sort out and they can export to Europe.

GWR doesn't need more fleet types.

 

[anthony263]

Yeowarts Open Access Stirling-London service is looking for temporary stock

His Carmarthen to London is too

 

[30907]

IIRC the original plan was that the 68s were a short-term measure and would be replaced by electric locos as soon as there were wires enough for them to operate under. If there is to ge a future use for the Mk5 sets it surely has to be with electric or at least bimode traction?

 

[Trainbike46]

The original problem, that is now being resolved by sending the mk5s of lease, is that 4 fleets (397, 802, 185 and Mk5s) is rather a lot for a relatively small TOC.

The only future uses in the UK that I'd say are remotely likely are:
- Adapt them to expand the Caledonian Sleeper fleet (unlikely to happen at all, but they would be a good fit)
- Use at one of the 2 new open-access connections mentioned above (london-Stirling or London-Carmarthen), assuming they ever happen
- Fill a gap in a role they're not particularly suitable for when the next government suddenly realises the current one has gone rather too hard on reducing fleet sizes

I’m not sure why there is a sudden desire to use these trains somewhere else in GB. XC itself is getting rid of rolling stock not increasing the fleet.

And many people would, quite rightly in my view, argue that reducing the size of the XC fleet is a mistake. Though the 22x coming available from Avanti and EMR would be way more suitable than the Mk5s for XC

 

[Snow1964]

Indeed, Beacon Rail took on the risk that the stock would end up with no home. It's their problem to sort out and they can export to Europe.

They might have taken the risk, but you can bet all the players in the leasing market watch what happens to various deals and behaviour of those leasing.

Almost certainly this will have increased the lease risk factor for TPE, so next deal they will pay more. It could potentially also screw other operators looking for small orders (eg Chiltern) because these deals will now be seen as much riskier, in case they subsequently opt for standardised fleet few years later.

The risk for UK operators, is dumping the Locos and mk5s (about 80 vehicles) will come back and bite them in next 800 or more vehicles having their leases priced higher to recover the risk element. So anyone thinking they have dodged a bullet by returning the mk5s might find they will be paying for it for years going forward.

That's why might be better to get another Operator leasing them. Rather depends if look at it short term, or how much will end up needing extra subsidy over next 15 years due to introducing extra risk. It's completely naive to assume the leaseCos will just swallow cost of this very early return with no consequences.

 

[Brooke]

Having ridden on the Irish Mk IVs today, is there any merit in the TPE Mk Vs going to Irish Rail?

The Dublin - Cork trains are often at capacity and I understand they have spare locos.

 

[pompeyfan]

Whilst I fully appreciate that GWR would have similar issues to TPE, they’re only in dispute with drivers because of the national T&C / pay issues, so driver training wouldn’t be as challenging as some other TOCs. Personally I think they’d be pretty good on the Castle diagrams. I understand they’re noisier than the MTU 43s, but most of GWRs depots on that part of the network are away from residential areas. This could eventually free up sprinters for the Devon metro work (although like others have mentioned, additional stock will be available around the same time crew training would be complete). Are the 68s thirstier than 2x43s?

As much as I would like to see them on Portsmouth - Cardiff services, I know they wouldn’t be suitable.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Whilst I fully appreciate that GWR would have similar issues to TPE, they’re only in dispute with drivers because of the national T&C / pay issues, so driver training wouldn’t be as challenging as some other TOCs. Personally I think they’d be pretty good on the Castle diagrams. I understand they’re noisier than the MTU 43s, but most of GWRs depots on that part of the network are away from residential areas. This could eventually free up sprinters for the Devon metro work (although like others have mentioned, additional stock will be available around the same time crew training would be complete). Are the 68s thirstier than 2x43s?

It is still likely that TfW cascaded sprinters would be quicker to get into traffic and they won’t need any training or route clearance.

 

[pompeyfan]

It is still likely that TfW cascaded sprinters would be quicker to get into traffic and they won’t need any training or route clearance.

Both valid points, it’s just a shame the sets are unlikely to see service again in the uk because the railway (DfT) would rather press on with 40 year old DMUs because it’s cheaper and more convenient.

I fully understand and agree with removing the castle sets, but these could have been a suitable replacement.

 

[Whistler40145]

Could the 68+Mk 5s go to XC with several 221s moving to Grand Central to replace the 180s?