Tavistock Re-opening: how should the line be served and could the line be extended beyond Tavistock?

[zwk500]

How many express bus campaigns have you seen ?

The concept is a fob-off.

The concept is a compromise. But where they have been implemented, they have generally been successful.

 

[BrianW]

The concept is a compromise. But where they have been implemented, they have generally been successful.

Might one of the two structures of the Meldon viaduct (IIUC) be (made)sufficiently strong to take a worthwhile service from Okehampton, with the footpath relocated to the other one if necessary? Another, hopefully realistic, compromise?

 

[zwk500]

Might one of the two structures of the Meldon viaduct (IIUC) be (made)sufficiently strong to take a worthwhile service from Okehampton, with the footpath relocated to the other one if necessary? Another, hopefully realistic, compromise?

I don't know what level of work the viaducts would need but it is unlikely to be viable to covert the trackbed to be suitable for an express coach from the last available connection to the road network.

 

[30907]

I don't know what level of work the viaducts would need but it is unlikely to be viable to covert the trackbed to be suitable for an express coach from the last available connection to the road network.

Not sure where the idea of an Express coach Okehampton (as opposed to Tavistock)-Plymouth has come from, but there seems to be a decent road already.

 

[zwk500]

Not sure where the idea of an Express coach Okehampton (as opposed to Tavistock)-Plymouth has come from, but there seems to be a decent road already.

From a desperate attempt to try and remove potential obstacles from the eventual reopening of the line as a railway, I expect.

 

[Xavi]

Oh dear, the schools are back.

 

[6Gman]

Yes, individual centres are on single points of failure, however they don't then have an entire county relying on them as well.

Cornwall also depends on the Royal Albert Bridge so reopening the old Southern route doesn't remove that element of risk.

 

[paul1609]

Oh dear, the schools are back. View attachment 142049

Why on earth would anybody drive from Tavistock to Royal Parade via Mutley Plain?

Cornwall also depends on the Royal Albert Bridge so reopening the old Southern route doesn't remove that element of risk.

In fact unless you are going demolish large parts of the Western Plymouth suburbs the reopened Southern Route would end at St Budeaux where it takes the "emergency ammunition trains" connection through a single lead junction on to Fountain Lake Viaduct and a series of rickety GWR viaducts to Plymouth Station all still single points of failure.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Why on earth would anybody drive from Tavistock to Royal Parade via Mutley Plain?


In fact unless you are going demolish large parts of the Western Plymouth suburbs the reopened Southern Route would end at St Budeaux where it takes the "emergency ammunition trains" connection through a single lead junction on to Fountain Lake Viaduct and a series of rickety GWR viaducts to Plymouth Station all still single points of failure.

What route do you suggest - Outland Road is just as congested on the map? Forder Valley / Embankment is pretty hopeless too at that time of day.

I assume you mean Weston Mill Viaduct - the GWR replaced it and Keyham Viaduct around 1906 - they are not exactly Brunel's original 'rickety' structures. The wartime connection at St. Budeaux took mainline trains - 'The Brighton' through service used it 1964-7.

 

[Xavi]

Why on earth would anybody drive from Tavistock to Royal Parade via Mutley Plain?

Because it was quicker at the time than Milehouse.

 

[Bald Rick]

Are the schools still back today?

 

[yorksrob]

I think its been demonstrated that at times the road between Tavistock and Plymouth is overly congested.

The conclusion is that a train service will avoid those delays at busy times and provide a faster public transport connection for non-motorists. All else is obfuscation from the "anything but rail" brigade.

 

[Bartsimho]

Are the schools still back today?

I mean this is 8:15 while most school traffic is 8:30 when it starts getting congested. Also already some patches of slowness already when it is probably too early for schools/workers to have reached the centre or some to have even set off

 

[Xavi]

I mean this is 8:15 while most school traffic is 8:30 when it starts getting congested. Also already some patches of slowness already when it is probably too early for schools/workers to have reached the centre or some to have even set off

Spot on. Facts can’t be ignored, there were no accidents yesterday, congestion only and does not allow time for parking.

Google Maps gives normal journey time always, you only get expected times when you set a departure time. Current expected is 30-50 mins.

Bing is a better App for current traffic conditions - 40 mins leaving at 1000.

 

[paul1609]

I think its been demonstrated that at times the road between Tavistock and Plymouth is overly congested.

The conclusion is that a train service will avoid those delays at busy times and provide a faster public transport connection for non-motorists. All else is obfuscation from the "anything but rail" brigade.

So what you're saying is congestion that occurs for 30 mins per day 5 days a week for 25 weeks a year justifies a multi million pound rail scheme that misses the town centre at one end by 1.4 miles and isn't well sited for employment at the city end and in between serves a couple of pretty waterfront villages?

 

[yorksrob]

So what you're saying is congestion that occurs for 30 mins per day 5 days a week for 25 weeks a year justifies a multi million pound rail scheme that misses the town centre at one end by 1.4 miles and isn't well sited for employment at the city end and in between serves a couple of pretty waterfront villages?

I'm saying that Tavistock residents clearly need a real public transport alternative to the congested local road network - one that links into the main medium-long distance public transport network in the country.

 

[irish_rail]

So what you're saying is congestion that occurs for 30 mins per day 5 days a week for 25 weeks a year justifies a multi million pound rail scheme that misses the town centre at one end by 1.4 miles and isn't well sited for employment at the city end and in between serves a couple of pretty waterfront villages?

But that just isn't the reality is it? The roads from the north of the city down into Plymouth are horrendous for much of the day. Like I said up thread, I spent about an hour on a bus from North Plymouth to the city centre, and it wasn't in the middle of rush hour, but the traffic was horrendous.. although I would argue a Tram system for Plymouth would be of more use, but that ain't gonna happen!

 

[paul1609]

I'm saying that Tavistock residents clearly need a real public transport alternative to the congested local road network - one that links into the main medium-long distance public transport network in the country.

If you check Google maps you'll find that Tavistock 12000 inhabitants already have the 118 bus to Oakhampton where the train will wisk you to Exeter St David's about 40 mins qucker than travelling via Plymouth. It'll still be quicker if the multi million pound railway is built. That's public transport to pretty much every medium distance location in the UK.

 

[yorksrob]

If you check Google maps you'll find that Tavistock 12000 inhabitants already have the 118 bus to Oakhampton where the train will wisk you to Exeter St David's about 40 mins qucker than travelling via Plymouth. It'll still be quicker if the multi million pound railway is built. That's public transport to pretty much every medium distance location in the UK.

If that is a popular bus route, it suggests that opening the railway all the way through to Okehampton would be even more effective in linking the area to the National railway network.

 

[Xavi]

So what you're saying is congestion that occurs for 30 mins per day 5 days a week for 25 weeks a year justifies a multi million pound rail scheme that misses the town centre at one end by 1.4 miles and isn't well sited for employment at the city end and in between serves a couple of pretty waterfront villages?

You should read other posts. Bus operators are struggling to offer a viable morning peak service in less than 80 minutes. It’s a no-brainer to reinstate just 5.5 miles of railway to offer a sustainable, faster, more reliable public transport alternative.

 

[zwk500]

You should read other posts. Bus operators are struggling to offer a viable morning peak service in less than 80 minutes. It’s a no-brainer to reinstate just 5.5 miles of railway to offer a sustainable, faster, more reliable public transport alternative.

It's not a no-brainer because it will cost multiple millions of pounds and it won't serve the demand properly, as @paul1609 has mentioned. If the issue is a bit of congestion some bus gates would be a much more cost-effective way to provide a more reliable service.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Just how do you propose to install bus gates on the one and only road into Plymouth from Tavistock past the George Hotel and Derriford? Just for fun the city council has approved a stupid car-centric district centre at Derriford (including a large M & S) to add to the congestion plus a large housing development between Woolwell and Roborough just off the A386. Plymouth Citybus has just reported that road traffic is 10% up on pre-COVID levels in the city and is having an adverse affect on timekeeping and requiring ever lengthening schedules. I do wonder whether some posters have ever visited Plymouth or Tavistock - I recommend a study tour to see the problems.

 

[yorksrob]

It's not a no-brainer because it will cost multiple millions of pounds and it won't serve the demand properly, as @paul1609 has mentioned. If the issue is a bit of congestion some bus gates would be a much more cost-effective way to provide a more reliable service.

Every town railway station in the country is imperfectly placed for some part of its catchment, yet people still use the trains.

 

[Bald Rick]

I mean this is 8:15 while most school traffic is 8:30 when it starts getting congested. Also already some patches of slowness already when it is probably too early for schools/workers to have reached the centre or some to have even set off

Spot on. Facts can’t be ignored, there were no accidents yesterday, congestion only and does not allow time for parking.

Google Maps gives normal journey time always, you only get expected times when you set a departure time. Current expected is 30-50 mins.

Bing is a better App for current traffic conditions - 40 mins leaving at 1000.

I must admit I was a little surprised about these responses. Google for me is very accurate (Assuming traffic conditions stay broadly similar), as it sets journey times based on prevailing traffic conditions and actual recently experienced journey times.

Also in my part of the world, when the schools are in, the traffic builds up from 0730, until 0900. Because it’s not the schools traffic per se (although that does contribute), but the fact that when the schools are off a notable portion of the working population is also not travelling to work, and that is enough to effect a significant reduction in congestion.

Anyway, I’ve been keeping an eye on Google journey times by road all day between Tavi town hall and Plymouth station (and vice versa). The longest Plymouth bound I saw was at 0857 this morning, at 39 mins. The longest outbound was 41 minutes at 1715 this evening, and that includes a little trip around the North Cross Roundabout, which presumably accounts for about 2 minutes.

Now of course this is just one day. That’s not to say it isn’t worse on other days. But I’ll repeat what I said upthread: I’ve been looking at this for 18 months and can’t remember seeing any time for that journey by road over 45 minutes. No doubt it does happen sometimes, but then so do train delays.

For the avoidance of doubt I’m using Tavi Town Hall to Plymouth station as that best represents an equivalent journey to the train (if it were ever to happen), and the best equivalent for an express non stop (or very limited stop) coach service.

 

[Irascible]

PS the other medium-sized town is Tiverton, which was the first to lose its passenger service - but no-one is proposing that for reopening (AFAIK)

It'd be near impossible anyway - the council built roads all over the rail corridor, and there isn't any way left to get into the place without digging tunnels everywhere. You might get a station into the industrial estate in the south-west corner if you knocked a factory out ( ignoring how you'd have to slew the main valley road around to fit a railway back in ), but that's quite a distance from most of the housing. Putting a station back somewhere more central, like behind the bus station, would mean de-pedestrianising the town centre again.

Tiverton has a dual carriageway / motorway route to Exeter and a parkway station 6 miles outside the town at the end of the dual carriageway. Puts the town someway down the list.

You are kidding, right? to get to Exeter via the motorway you have to drive 7 miles at right angles to where you're going, so by the time you've got to the motorway you're not any nearer than when you set off. The route to Exeter is 15 miles of windy road down the Exe valley, which passes through Bickleigh which is a major bottleneck & tends to flood. Then you either need to fight through the traffic from Cowley Bridge, or you go over the even windier back route from Stoke Canon & then have to fight into Exeter from another direction. Or you get the bus & hope it doesn't go round the lanes to Silverton, and then that has to fight into Exeter via Cowley Bridge anyway. I grew up in the place, pretty intimiately acquainted with getting in & out of there. There's a reason Cullompton's population is ballooing far quicker than the place can cope with.

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I can see where the argument that Barnstaple isn't a rural railway is coming from, given I think nearly alll the traffic is end to end, and a lot of that is people going to work in Exeter - ie, it's a suburban commuter service to a very detached suburb. Okehampton fits "rural railway" somewhat better.

 

[irish_rail]

I must admit I was a little surprised about these responses. Google for me is very accurate (Assuming traffic conditions stay broadly similar), as it sets journey times based on prevailing traffic conditions and actual recently experienced journey times.

Also in my part of the world, when the schools are in, the traffic builds up from 0730, until 0900. Because it’s not the schools traffic per se (although that does contribute), but the fact that when the schools are off a notable portion of the working population is also not travelling to work, and that is enough to effect a significant reduction in congestion.

Anyway, I’ve been keeping an eye on Google journey times by road all day between Tavi town hall and Plymouth station (and vice versa). The longest Plymouth bound I saw was at 0857 this morning, at 39 mins. The longest outbound was 41 minutes at 1715 this evening, and that includes a little trip around the North Cross Roundabout, which presumably accounts for about 2 minutes.

Now of course this is just one day. That’s not to say it isn’t worse on other days. But I’ll repeat what I said upthread: I’ve been looking at this for 18 months and can’t remember seeing any time for that journey by road over 45 minutes. No doubt it does happen sometimes, but then so do train delays.

For the avoidance of doubt I’m using Tavi Town Hall to Plymouth station as that best represents an equivalent journey to the train (if it were ever to happen), and the best equivalent for an express non stop (or very limited stop) coach service.

Roads in Plymouth yesterday where very quiet in my experience for some reason. Possibly weather related. I reckon next week would he a better test.

 

[Xavi]

You are kidding, right? to get to Exeter via the motorway you have to drive 7 miles at right angles to where you're going, so by the time you've got to the motorway you're not any nearer than when you set off.

I agree that the Exe Valley railway would be a great asset today. However, the M5 route does provide access to the east Exeter which is a large employment area. Also, this route does relieve some congestion on the A396, and consequently those who prioritise any future reopening of close railways may deem it to bring fewer benefits than some others.

Tiverton (15 mins driving time in 33 mins to Exeter) is a good example to compare to Tavistock (16 miles in 48 mins to Plymouth). Both trips from Bing Maps at 0850 today.

 

[A0]

If that is a popular bus route, it suggests that opening the railway all the way through to Okehampton would be even more effective in linking the area to the National railway network.

Where did the poster say it was "popular" or comment on how well used it is? I didn't see that mentioned.

 

[BrianW]

Where did the poster say it was "popular" or comment on how well used it is? I didn't see that mentioned.

Mine is not quite a 'reply' but responding along the lines of 'get real' re-openers
The #1 bus for Plymouth to Tavistock is scheduled to take aprox 1h; it runs 3ph and calls at Derriford Hospital.
The 118 bus runs Tavistock to Okehampton in apx 1h; it runs aprox 1ph and calls potentially at lots of little places the 'reopened' railway won't.
The 87 bus Tavistock to Bere Alston takes approx 30 mins; it runs aprox 1ph- occasional trips serve Bere Alston station.
The current train service Plymouth to Bere Alston takes approx 23 mins and runs every 2 hours.
My 1960 BR timetable Table 89 shows Plymouth to Bere Alston aprox 27mins; Bere Alston to Tavistock North 11-14 mins; and Tavistock Nth to Okehampton 31-43 mins. The 8.25am from Plymouth called at Tavistock Nth at 9.00, Okehampton 9.32a/34d, Exeter Central 10.23/ 30 and stns to Waterloo 2.15pm-thus 1h10 Plymouth to Okehampton in 1960; 2h today plus connection time at Tavistock.
Plymouth to Paddington can be done today in 3h; typically 3h10- 3h50 at 2tph.
Okehampton to Exeter takes 35-40 mins on the train today at 1tph.
Exeter to Paddington today in 2h3; typically 2h15 to 2h45.
I cannot believe that spending millions of 'hard-working taxpayers' money' to extend the rails from Bere Alston to Tavistock, let alone on to Okehampton can be justified.

 

[zwk500]

Roads in Plymouth yesterday where very quiet in my experience for some reason. Possibly weather related. I reckon next week would he a better test.

taking any single sample is never going to be representative. You'd need lots of data and then to take an average (possibly weighted). There's a reason traffic surveys cost money to do properly and don't rely solely on random checks of Google maps.