Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[GWVillager]

Well you’d think, but of course the moquette on all their other stock is actually grey.

Not with the little orange GC logo though, nor the orange reservation band or grab poles. It's just not a remotely TfW interior.

Piercing as it may be to some I absolutely love the unique BLEEP BLOOP BLEEP BLOOP door chime of the MK4s (fitted by Virgin Trains EC, I think) and I do hope they’re not replaced by the dreary bog-standard sound fitted to Sprinters/Desiro City/Avanti 221s or the boring beeps on the CAFs/Aventras.

This I do agree with though. And the seagull-sounding screech!

 

[43102EMR]

Not with the little orange GC logo though, nor the orange reservation band or grab poles. It's just not a remotely TfW interior.

The only thing they really need to change is the grab pole colour - everything else is fine, not to mention they’re in as-new condition thanks to the GC refurb, which is what most (if not all) passengers really care about.

 

[GWVillager]

The only thing they really need to change is the grab pole colour - everything else is fine, not to mention they’re in as-new condition thanks to the GC refurb, which is what most (if not all) passengers really care about.

Oh certainly, I'm not saying they should be refurbished again. But it wouldn't be a good idea to put anything else in it.

 

[Caaardiff]

Until TFW can get them working reliably with the 67's, id be cautious about spending any money on the interiors. Hopefully the program that SD mentions will improve things. They are already superior in comfort to the rest of the fleet in their current state.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They are already superior in comfort to the rest of the fleet in their current state.

Very subjective statement. Superior to you, perhaps.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Very subjective statement. Superior to you, perhaps.

Objectively more comfortable than a 150 or their 158s, I'd argue a 175 is nicer from a passenger PoV

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Objectively more comfortable than a 150 or their 158s, I'd argue a 175 is nicer from a passenger PoV

I prefer a 175 myself, but you can’t claim a MK4 is blanket more comfortable than a 158. I think they are myself but again, it’s subjective. Hardcore Grammar lovers, for example - and I know there are a few here - may see little benefit in a MK4 especially if the buffet is closed. Ruth’s simple announcements also come as a great relief after the torture of the system installed on the non ex-Arriva fleets.

 

[sd0733]

Piercing as it may be to some I absolutely love the unique BLEEP BLOOP BLEEP BLOOP door chime of the MK4s (fitted by Virgin Trains EC, I think) and I do hope they’re not replaced by the dreary bog-standard sound fitted to Sprinters/Desiro City/Avanti 221s or the boring beeps on the CAFs/Aventras.

They aren't part of the scope, it's just the physical buttons being replaced. You can see the New ones as they're clean and bright orange. Some sets are already done. The 'Seagull' sound potentially could go though eventually as there's programmes around the plug door mechanisms being planned as those do cause most delays.

Very subjective statement. Superior to you, perhaps.

To be honest there's always loads of positive comments from 'normal' passengers on the Mk4s even with the currently fairly scruffy interiors a lot of people seem to have taken to them really well in a way that they haven't on the units, including 197s where I've never actually heard one positive comment from a passenger on board! How much of this is purely down to them being bigger and not a 150 I'm not sure tho!

 

[GWVillager]

To be honest there's always loads of positive comments from 'normal' passengers on the Mk4s even with the currently fairly scruffy interiors a lot of people seem to have taken to them really well in a way that they haven't on the units, including 197s where I've never actually heard one positive comment from a passenger on board! How much of this is purely down to them being bigger and not a 150 I'm not sure tho!

I agree, essentially every time I’ve been on one I’ve heard passengers remark on how nice they are. I do think they can be said to be objectively better for the passenger than their predecessors, and differing opinions likely come down to personal preference.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The 'Seagull' sound potentially could go though eventually as there's programmes around the plug door mechanisms being planned as those do cause most delays.

Is that the comparatively rather faint close sound? I can well believe that as its not very audible and doesn’t strike me as the most compliant. I just hope the door opening BLEEP BLOOP X3 doesn’t go

 

[HamworthyGoods]

To be honest there's always loads of positive comments from 'normal' passengers on the Mk4s

There hasn’t been in recent weeks with all the HVAC issues!!

Better first class branding, stickers and head rests.

You mean actually some first class branding, on many sets there is nothing at all.

 

[sd0733]

Is that the comparatively rather faint close sound? I can well believe that as its not very audible and doesn’t strike me as the most compliant. I just hope the door opening BLEEP BLOOP X3 doesn’t go

The bleeping from the sounders opening or closing shouldn't change at all. The closing sounders are different on practically every door across the fleet!
The 'Seagull' is the sqwark some of them make when the doors are open, it's not meant to be there just happens on some doors when air is released

There hasn’t been in recent weeks with all the HVAC issues!!



You mean actually some first class branding, on many sets there is nothing at all.

True!

Yes, officially its there but its all rather pointless when the doors open and it disappears into the wall. It's been the bane of most Guards lives since they were introduced!


Theres a much reduced Mk4 service tomorrow so everything is in the right place for Tuesday with the block. The only planned departures from Manchester are at 06:27 and 10:30.

Northbound workings are planned as:
05:36 Swansea to Manchester
17:14 Cardiff to Holyhead
19:41 Cardiff to Holyhead.

 

[GWVillager]

Yes, officially its there but its all rather pointless when the doors open and it disappears into the wall. It's been the bane of most Guards lives since they were introduced!

The ‘upgrade to first’ stickers on the windows of the GC sets in standard don’t help either. I’ve seen passengers worry that they’ve sat down in first because of this, and get up to find somewhere else.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The ‘upgrade to first’ stickers on the windows of the GC sets in standard don’t help either. I’ve seen passengers worry that they’ve sat down in first because of this, and get up to find somewhere else.

I have also seen this.

 

[sd0733]

The ‘upgrade to first’ stickers on the windows of the GC sets in standard don’t help either. I’ve seen passengers worry that they’ve sat down in first because of this, and get up to find somewhere else.

Many of the branding decisions on them have been rather poor, those included.
Those stickers are on all sets including HD03.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Many of the branding decisions on them have been rather poor, those included.

To be fair to TfW though, I definitely think it was needed to let customers know about first’s existence else it’d have stayed the ghost town it was when they were first brought in.

 

[sd0733]

To be fair to TfW though, I definitely think it was needed to let customers know about first’s existence else it’d have stayed the ghost town it was when they were first brought in.

Agree that something was needed to push it, never personally known anyone upgrade off the stickers but it all helps I guess. The trouble is some of them are starting to get picked at and corners peeled off already.
There is going to be a bigger push anyway on the whole First class/Catering offer. The first stage has already begun with the cheap complimentary packs of biscuits being replaced by fresh Croissants and Pastries on the morning trains and Chocolate brownies and other bits and pieces on the afternoon services.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There is going to be a bigger push anyway on the whole First class/Catering offer. The first stage has already begun with the cheap complimentary packs of biscuits being replaced by fresh Croissants and Pastries on the morning trains and Chocolate brownies and other bits and pieces on the afternoon services.

I think I'd rather that than a full breakfast anyway these days, knowing my appetite, although I'm sure others may disagree. It sounds like TfW are working hard to make it a very nice route certainly, with this and the eventual 5 car 197s.

 

[Caaardiff]

I think I'd rather that than a full breakfast anyway these days, knowing my appetite, although I'm sure others may disagree. It sounds like TfW are working hard to make it a very nice route certainly, with this and the eventual 5 car 197s.

It has been a poor introduction but agreed things appear to be in the pipeline for improvements. It's just a shame that given TFW are going through such a transformation that they couldn't have a standard product offering across the route. Granted they'd need more sets but even if it was just Swansea/Cardiff - Manchester, but with every service being a mk4 would mean consistency for customers.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Must say, I do think the MK4’s are TFW’s best rolling stock from a passenger perspective (and the guards I chat to live working them compared to the units). Fingers crossed any HVAC reliability issues can be overcome. Whenever the wife and I go to Cardiff we always try to catch a MK4 set in both directions and go first class. As I’m TFW staff sometimes we go free, sometimes we pay (always offer and more than happy to pay the upgrade fee) but I do think the upgrade price is 100% worth it.
We travelled down from Shrewsbury on a 197 last Sunday and back on a MK4 on the Monday. Whilst I feel the 197 wasn’t as bad as people make it out, it certainly did seem worse than a 175 or 158 but better than a 150 or 153. MK4 still sits top of our favourites we tried the chocolate brownie mentioned above, and it was amazing, super gooey and not like a packer brownie even remotely.

I do hear rumours that TFW might want to replace the 67’s with a tri/bi-mode locomotive, possibly the class 93? Might increase reliability and reduce the running costs as those 67’s absolutely drink fuel. A guy from Chiltern told me that swapping from 67’s to 68’s dropped the fuel bill by a third.
If reliability goes up and running costs come down, surely that could only be a good thing for the longevity of the loco hauled TFW sets.
I did also hear they may want to try and get the Avanti 221’s when there’s available but I don’t see this to be as likely.

 

[craigybagel]

I do hear rumours that TFW might want to replace the 67’s with a tri/bi-mode locomotive, possibly the class 93? Might increase reliability and reduce the running costs as those 67’s absolutely drink fuel. A guy from Chiltern told me that swapping from 67’s to 68’s dropped the fuel bill by a third.
If reliability goes up and running costs come down, surely that could only be a good thing for the longevity of the loco hauled TFW sets.

Very true about 67s drinking fuel. There's not a lot left in the tank when they go on depot after doing 2 Manchester - Cardiff round trips.

As it stands though, 93s aren't a viable alternative - they just aren't powerful enough on diesel. The Marches is a very hilly bit of railway.

There are of course a lot of 68s about to become available however, unless DRS have already got work lined up for the soon to be ex TPE locos.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Very true about 67s drinking fuel. There's not a lot left in the tank when they go on depot after doing 2 Manchester - Cardiff round trips.

As it stands though, 93s aren't a viable alternative - they just aren't powerful enough on diesel. The Marches is a very hilly bit of railway.

There are of course a lot of 68s about to become available however, unless DRS have already got work lined up for the soon to be ex TPE

I can certainly see that ! No wonder they’ve run out of fuel mid journey before

I had wondered about that with any bi-mode loco due to the nature of the route (and significant lack of OLE for most of it).

Would the 68’s work with the TFW MK4’s with out issue (in theory)?
Whilst the only section with plus 100mph running for the route is somewhere between Crewe and ManP ,would they be able to keep to time sufficiently to have TFW consider them ? If so I think they’d be better off with the 68’s instead.

 

[sd0733]

It has been a poor introduction but agreed things appear to be in the pipeline for improvements. It's just a shame that given TFW are going through such a transformation that they couldn't have a standard product offering across the route. Granted they'd need more sets but even if it was just Swansea/Cardiff - Manchester, but with every service being a mk4 would mean consistency for customers.

It has, I don't think you'll find anyone anywhere who disagrees! Every time something has been planned issues have arisen either with the stock or something else and things have fallen apart. Things seem to be turning a corner and hopefully the works taking place over the duration of the works plus the upcoming 5 car sets can improve things further.

Must say, I do think the MK4’s are TFW’s best rolling stock from a passenger perspective (and the guards I chat to live working them compared to the units). Fingers crossed any HVAC reliability issues can be overcome.

Crews either love them or hate them, there seems very few in between! As time goes on and everyone gets more work on them the latter camp gets smaller but it's still there.

Hopefully the HVAC work and the future ability to monitor in realtime will help.

I did also hear they may want to try and get the Avanti 221’s when there’s available but I don’t see this to be as likely.

That's a pretty long standing train crew rumour with very little substance! From what I understand with 5 engines they drink fuel even more than a 67, have a lower capacity and lose the fully equipped kitchen.

As it stands though, 93s aren't a viable alternative - they just aren't powerful enough on diesel. The Marches is a very hilly bit of railway.

There are of course a lot of 68s about to become available however, unless DRS have already got work lined up for the soon to be ex TPE locos

From what I understand the plans are a "Derivative" of the 93s as like you say there's no where near enough power on diesel in their current form. The 67s are on lease until 2027 but seems fairly likely to have to be extended seeing as the new locos aren't even on the drawing board.

68s I don't believe there's much desire to go through another project to modify the Mk4s to work with another fully diesel loco type. Also they'd effectively be paying twice on the lease for the next 4 years. After speaking to various people I'd be very very suprised to see a 68 on a TfW service anytime soon. Bi-mode is the direction they want to go in.

 

[craigybagel]

Would the 68’s work with the TFW MK4’s with out issue (in theory)?

In theory with a lot of mods.

Whilst the only section with plus 100mph running for the route is somewhere between Crewe and ManP ,would they be able to keep to time sufficiently to have TFW consider them ? If so I think they’d be better off with the 68’s instead.

Crewe to Wilmslow is the only section where speeds above 100 can actually be attained - but it's not really necessary unless running late.

Crews either love them or hate them, there seems very few in between! As time goes on and everyone gets more work on them the latter camp gets smaller but it's still there.

For the love or hate divide for drivers that can vary on the day depending on which end you're driving from! Especially now the Aircon in the DVT seems to be working better.

From what I understand the plans are a "Derivative" of the 93s as like you say there's no where near enough power on diesel in their current form. The 67s are on lease until 2027 but seems fairly likely to have to be extended seeing as the new locos aren't even on the drawing board.

68s I don't believe there's much desire to go through another project to modify the Mk4s to work with another fully diesel loco type. Also they'd effectively be paying twice on the lease for the next 4 years. After speaking to various people I'd be very very suprised to see a 68 on a TfW service anytime soon. Bi-mode is the direction they want to go in.

The original (and since deleted from the internet) plans showed a transition to 68s in 2027. I know there's probably no desire to make the switch, but if the reliability of the locos remain subpar, and/or the cost of the diesel they consume gets excessive, and with the long term plan being a transition to a loco that'll likely be a derivative of 68s anyway, I can see management being tempted to renegotiate and make the change earlier.

I'd be very surprised if DRS hadn't at least approached TfW as soon as TPE announced their desire to abandon their use of the locos, whether or not anything actually came from it. In the same way as when the GC MKIVs unexpectedly became available, TfW was the most obvious alterative home for them.

 

[sd0733]

In theory with a lot of mods.

Crewe to Wilmslow is the only section where speeds above 100 can actually be attained - but it's not really necessary unless running late.

For the love or hate divide for drivers that can vary on the day depending on which end you're driving from! Especially now the Aircon in the DVT seems to be working better.

True, mosr far more keen when the DVT rolls round the corner of the front!

 

[Geogregor]

Some of my shots from Saturday.

At Newport:

P1630091 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1630092 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1630093 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And at Hereford:

20230909_115937 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20230909_115807 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1630118 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1630120 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

 

[sd0733]

The original (and since deleted from the internet) plans showed a transition to 68s in 2027. I know there's probably no desire to make the switch, but if the reliability of the locos remain subpar, and/or the cost of the diesel they consume gets excessive, and with the long term plan being a transition to a loco that'll likely be a derivative of 68s anyway, I can see management being tempted to renegotiate and make the change earlier.

I'd be very surprised if DRS hadn't at least approached TfW as soon as TPE announced their desire to abandon their use of the locos, whether or not anything actually came from it. In the same way as when the GC MKIVs unexpectedly became available, TfW was the most obvious alterative home for thethem

It'll certainly be interesting what happens by 2027.

Asked around with some people who would know and for a variety of reasons, required mods, training and leases the 68s are as it stands ruled out.

The decision to improve loco availability has been taken that one extra 67 Will be modified, taking the TfW pool to 12.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The decision to improve loco availability has been taken that one extra 67 Will be modified, taking the TfW pool to 12.

Ooh, do we know which? Definitely seems a sensible idea.

 

[sd0733]

Ooh, do we know which? Definitely seems a sensible idea.

Deleted.. appears was incorrect

 

[43096]

Ooh, do we know which? Definitely seems a sensible idea.

67016 was reinstated to the WAWC pool a week or two back. Presumably getting mods at Crewe then paint at Toton?