Minimum Service Levels Bill receives Royal Assent

[D1537]

I've got at least 20 positive COVID tests in the drawer here (I've had it three times), as have most of the staff where I work. Knew they'd come in useful at some point.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Self-certification for 7 days. Simple

You'd need to check with your HR Department. My TOC requires a medical certificate (at your own cost), even where you'd normally be able to self-certify, or you don't get paid for those days.

 

[Watershed]

Not 100% correct regarding the current strike laws.

A quote from the Tory website.

Industrial action by non-union members​

Non-union members who take part in legal, official industrial action have the same rights as union members not to be dismissed as a result of taking action.

That's to do with whether or not you're a union member - not crossing a picket line.

You are taking industrial action if you refuse to cross a picket line. That industrial action is only protected from the normal consequences if it consitutes lawful industrial action - which in the rail industry means giving 2 weeks' notice, amongst other things.

Again, myths abound in this area, not helped by the misinformation spread by various parties.

 

[Krokodil]

Solidarity Strikes are illegal in a lot of countries or at least severely restricted IIRC Anyone hoping that Labour would repeal all trade union or strike laws once elected are naive.

They haven't suggested that they would. The suggestion is that the laws passed since 2010 (particularly the latest bunch) would be repealed.

Just get signed off with stress. Being 'forced' to work and the pressure of crossing the picket and indeed feeling the need to strike would be a legitimate reason for stress

Even better, arrive at the booking on point and then decide that the stress is too much to perform your duties. You could also have an accident (trip over your own shoelaces) at work. Not sure that I could stomach the extra paperwork though.

 

[Train_manager]

.......

 

[Facing Back]

Unlawful speak to your union

It isn't unlawful for an employer to insist on a fit note before 7 days. A doctor might refuse to issue one, in which case, depending on the contract of employment, the employee may have to pay privately for one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2023 ==

No misinformation. Believe what you want to believe.

Here's the link. it's at the bottom. Good luck I'm out.

Taking part in industrial action and strikes

How legal industrial action is organised, picketing and the law and what your employment rights when you are on strike

www.gov.uk

The new legislation, AIR, adds a caveat to the protection if you take industrial action under the circumstances when the employee is considered essential. They can be disciplined in this case.

 

[greatkingrat]

There is no legal obligation for a company to pay sick pay at all, whether you have a certificate or not, just the Statutory Sick Pay.

 

[Facing Back]

I'm trying to work out what they mean by the statement. The greater responsibility placed on those required to work on those days must be reflected in pay and conditions. Does that mean you get extra money to be forced to work. I'm confused.

It is confusing but the comments from the select committee are not binding on the government so I wish anyone hoping for extra pay for these days the best of luck.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2023 ==

There is no legal obligation for a company to pay sick pay at all, whether you have a certificate or not, just the Statutory Sick Pay.

This is true - unless it is stated in an employee's contractual terms and conditions. Generally though, a fit note affects the company's ability to implement disciplinary action on the basis of the absence.

 

[Watershed]

No misinformation. Believe what you want to believe.

Here's the link. it's at the bottom. Good luck I'm out.

Although I'd note that the general information pages on gov.uk are not an official source of legal advice (and so should not necessarily be relied upon), the page you link to doesn't say what you are suggesting. It says that:

Non-union members who take part in legal, official industrial action have the same rights as union members not to be dismissed as a result of taking action.

We're not talking about non-union members - nor is refusing to cross a picket line official industrial action. Therefore this is irrelevant.

The MSL Act means that the normal protection from being dismissed is lost if anyone - whether a union member or not - refuses or fails to turn up to work, when issued with a work notice, without good reason.

Any employer that takes the Act even remotely seriously would pay close scrutiny to claims of illness, stress etc.

 

[CyrusWuff]

There is no legal obligation for a company to pay sick pay at all, whether you have a certificate or not, just the Statutory Sick Pay.

There's also no entitlement to SSP where you're "away from work because of a trade dispute which started before the first day you were sick." Info from GOV.UK.

 

[Facing Back]

There's also no entitlement to SSP where you're "away from work because of a trade dispute which started before the first day you were sick." Info from GOV.UK.

My understanding is that a number of companies take a default position that if you don't report for work then you are on strike and SSP and pension contributions are withheld if there is an ongoing trade dispute regardless of fit notes. Whether they will pay more attention under MSL remains to be seen.

 

[Vespa]

People blaming the unions, is this just the rail unions or the 14 health unions too? And all the teaching and university unions? And the fire service union? And the Civil service unions?

I don’t remember all of these unions feeling the need to strike under the last government. Maybe let’s lay the blame where it rightly sits.

Unions have had strikes under a Labour government before, no doubt will do so in future Labour government, the Winter of Discontent was under James Callaghans 1976-1979 Labour government so which has long since been referenced so often about excess union power is an albatross round Labour and Union's neck ever since......

It handed Thatcher a victory on a plate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2023 ==

Didn't Ronny have the military fill in to keep things from grinding to a complete halt ?

Don't think you can get the military to come in to drive trains.

Royal Engineers have a 507 Specialists Team Royal Engineers(Railways) not large but can keep things going if neccessary with other sections of the Engineers pitching in, they've had experience working with Network Rail.

 

[Thirteen]

Unions have had strikes under a Labour government before, no doubt will do so in future Labour government, the Winter of Discontent was under James Callaghans 1976-1979 Labour government so which has long since been referenced so often about excess union power is an albatross round Labour and Union's neck ever since......

TfL which is controlled by a Labour Mayor have two days of strikes on the London Underground in two weeks although that's for different reasons.

 

[irish_rail]

Although I'd note that the general information pages on gov.uk are not an official source of legal advice (and so should not necessarily be relied upon), the page you link to doesn't say what you are suggesting. It says that:


We're not talking about non-union members - nor is refusing to cross a picket line official industrial action. Therefore this is irrelevant.

The MSL Act means that the normal protection from being dismissed is lost if anyone - whether a union member or not - refuses or fails to turn up to work, when issued with a work notice, without good reason.

Any employer that takes the Act even remotely seriously would pay close scrutiny to claims of illness, stress etc.

But is there really an appetite for a TOC to make several or even tens of its workforce redundant as a result of refusing to cross picketlines. Is a TOC really going to shoot itself in the foot, face all the short term cancellations associated with traincrew shortage, plus the time and money ot will take to train up all the replacements. We need to be realistic. These are all reasons why this legislation is just right wing nonsense and never going to have any kind of effect.
If I was a passenger now, I'd be pressuring my MP to get the Gov to put a reasonable offer to traincrew to get these strikes ended. That's what everyone wants, the travelling public, the railstaff, everyone except this government.....

 

[Economist]

Personally, as an ASLEF member, I'd be quite content just to see the union avoid strikes and wait for either a change of government or the minimum service laws to be declared illegal. The government have absolutely no intention of negotiating in good faith because they know the odds of them winning the next election are tiny. There's so many problems in the country, rail strikes don't grab the headlines like they would have done.

The worst thing to do now would be to endanger members' jobs by having pointless strikes whilst any minimum service regulations exist. We pretty much all know that there won't be a deal till after the next GE at the earliest.

The way to win would've been to make it clear to members in December 2019 that saving money should be a priority since the government would likely pick a battle with rail unions. Then, at the start of the ASLEF dispute the union should have gone out for an indefinite period up to the twelve weeks allowed. I reckon the government would have caved in that scenario.

 

[irish_rail]

Personally, as an ASLEF member, I'd be quite content just to see the union avoid strikes and wait for either a change of government or the minimum service laws to be declared illegal. The government have absolutely no intention of negotiating in good faith because they know the odds of them winning the next election are tiny. There's so many problems in the country, rail strikes don't grab the headlines like they would have done.

The worst thing to do now would be to endanger members' jobs by having pointless strikes whilst any minimum service regulations exist. We pretty much all know that there won't be a deal till after the next GE at the earliest.

The way to win would've been to make it clear to members in December 2019 that saving money should be a priority since the government would likely pick a battle with rail unions. Then, at the start of the ASLEF dispute the union should have gone out for an indefinite period up to the twelve weeks allowed. I reckon the government would have caved in that scenario.

My concern is the Tories MIGHT actually scrape the next election. There is a sizeable chunk of electorate who don't give two hoots about climate change and Sunaks announcement on delaying climate targets will have played rather well with them. I suspect its a silent majority. A month ago I was confident Labour would win, im starting to feel less confident. And I genuinely fear for the railways, as what I've read elsewhere, IF and it still is a big IF, but if the tories do win another 5 years they are planning a rather big axe to the railway, be it fire and rehire of staff, or closing lesser used branch lines outside of peak summer, all Beeching like stuff. The fact Sunak uses a Helicopter when a train would do doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.....

 

[Thirteen]

It's massive hyperbole to suggest Beeching cuts are going to happen in the next five years.

 

[Sonik]

If I was a passenger now, I'd be pressuring my MP to get the Gov to put a reasonable offer to traincrew to get these strikes ended. That's what everyone wants, the travelling public, the railstaff, everyone except this government.....

I'm not convinced there will be much sympathy at all from the traveling public

People really don't like their essential travel being constantly disrupted and train staff aren't badly paid at all in the scheme of things. The unions talk about inflation but there are millions of people who have had an effective pay cut. In many sectors it's been going on like that for years, so frankly many staff don't know where they are well off.

I seem to remember a similar situation with the fire brigade strike, where the public were initially very sympathetic but it soon turned into 'you already get paid how much?, with ample time to work a second job?' My neighbor, a paramedic, had no time for them at all, and said the police officers who were helping cover the strike felt the same, because they themselves were doing three times as much work for less money.

Personally, I don't like at all the heavy handed way the government have dealt with this, but I don't have much sympathy for the unions either. They are destroying the future of the railway by making it so consistently unreliable, passengers will be forced to seek alternatives and they may never come back. Just look at what happened with Covid.

 

[dk1]

Just get signed off with stress. Being 'forced' to work and the pressure of crossing the picket and indeed feeling the need to strike would be a legitimate reason for stress

Totally this. Only have to bring it to attention that you don’t feel in the correct mind to do safety critical & nobody will have the courage to question that should anything happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2023 ==

There is no legal obligation for a company to pay sick pay at all, whether you have a certificate or not, just the Statutory Sick Pay.

That is so not railway lol

 

[Economist]

My concern is the Tories MIGHT actually scrape the next election. There is a sizeable chunk of electorate who don't give two hoots about climate change and Sunaks announcement on delaying climate targets will have played rather well with them. I suspect its a silent majority. A month ago I was confident Labour would win, im starting to feel less confident. And I genuinely fear for the railways, as what I've read elsewhere, IF and it still is a big IF, but if the tories do win another 5 years they are planning a rather big axe to the railway, be it fire and rehire of staff, or closing lesser used branch lines outside of peak summer, all Beeching like stuff. The fact Sunak uses a Helicopter when a train would do doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.....

I think Sunak is dodging rail possibly because of the dispute, the number of their own MPs who have decided to stand down at the next election suggests they aren't confident. I don't have much faith in Keir Starmer but I imagine he'll be better than scorched earth Tories. Latest polls shoow Labour 15-20% ahead and I reckon if Starmer has a few clangers the would-be Labour voters will go Lib Dem just as lots of Tory voters have. ASLEF, with the right strategy, could and should have won this a year ago.

They are destroying the future of the railway by making it so consistently unreliable, people seek alternatives and they may never come back.

I'm seriously tempted by a career on the flight deck and I must admit I'm surprised at how quickly the airlines seem to have bounced back from the pandemic.

 

[Sonik]

Totally this. Only have to bring it to attention that you don’t feel in the correct mind to do safety critical & nobody will have the courage to question that should anything happen.

A core issue is that many TOCs and NR don't employ sufficient numbers staff to cover the roster, forcing rest day working

From a safety perspective it would make most sense to implement statutory maximum hours & rest rules just like the airlines, then there would be no argument. But of course the unions will not call for this because some people want to put the hours in.

 

[dk1]

I'm seriously tempted by a career on the flight deck and I must admit I'm surprised at how quickly the airlines seem to have bounced back from the pandemic.

But then do has the likes of the ‘Stansted Express’ serving airports. Back to a full timetable from December. Saying that I was on the 16:00 Liverpool St-Norwich today & never recall it this busy pre-pandemic. The passengers are well & truly back here in force.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2023 ==

A core issue is that many TOCs and NR don't employ sufficient staff to cover their roster, forcing rest day working

From a safety perspective it would make most sense to implement statutory maximum hours & rest rules just like the airlines, but of course the unions will not call for this because some people want to put the hours in.

I thought that was exactly what ‘Hidden’ has done since the early 90s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2023 ==

Max 13 consecutive days, 72hrs in a week & 12hrs rest between shifts.

 

[bramling]

So if they had an otherwise clean sickness record, they could just say that they have D&V and stay off for 48 hrs?

In that situation the company could insist on the employee having to produce a doctor’s note. But otherwise, yes.

 

[Sonik]

I thought that was exactly what ‘Hidden’ has done since the early 90s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2023 ==

Max 13 consecutive days, 72hrs in a week & 12hrs rest between shifts.

So what's the constant argument over RDW then? The fact that people can't be bothered to do it shows that they are already well paid. There are plenty of people in safety critical roles on track who put up with a lot more for a lot less money.

If people don't want to work irregular and anti-social hours then go work in a 9-5 industry.

 

[bramling]

I think wilfully taking a sickie as unofficial industrial action is without doubt worse than the more traditional version, i.e. having an unplanned heavy night and realising you'd not be fit to perform a safety critical role. The former is downright fraudulent (particularly as it'd be paid), the latter is a much less serious mistruth being told because you've made a silly decision and want it not to cost you your job.

Not sure I agree on that. In a safety-critical industry like the railway there is an expectation that such staff manage their lifestyle such that they don’t have a “heavy night”. Yes it is preferable to coming in under the influence from a safety point of view, hence why these sorts of sickness absences aren’t easy to manage in the real world, but equally such absences cause massive problems, particularly at weekends and around public holiday times, or when there’s been a significant event like a flagship football match.

Personal opinion, however by comparison I don’t see sticking a finger up at politicians as a particularly bad thing to do. Indeed being completely honest I would do it, especially with this present government.

 

[dk1]

So what's the constant argument over RDW then? The fact that people can't be bothered shows that they are already well paid.

If people don't want to work irregular and anti-social hours then go work in a 9-5 industry

From your previous posts this just undermines you know very little about the subject.

 

[Peterthegreat]

From your previous posts this just undermines you know very little about the subject.

Quite.

 

[dk1]

Quite.

Thank you. I began to think I was losing the plot very briefly.

 

[bramling]

So what's the constant argument over RDW then? The fact that people can't be bothered to do it shows that they are already well paid.

That doesn’t really follow.

Person A may be someone in their late 20s with a mortgage plus medium or large size family who needs the extra money to make ends meet.

Person B may be someone in their 50s who has a house paid off, grown up small family, and for whom their salary is more than enough to keep their finances afloat. They might do RDW occasionally to help out if their depot has good ER and the management need a duty covering. Note the bit about “good ER” there!

Everyone is different.

 

[yorksrob]

My concern is the Tories MIGHT actually scrape the next election. There is a sizeable chunk of electorate who don't give two hoots about climate change and Sunaks announcement on delaying climate targets will have played rather well with them. I suspect its a silent majority. A month ago I was confident Labour would win, im starting to feel less confident. And I genuinely fear for the railways, as what I've read elsewhere, IF and it still is a big IF, but if the tories do win another 5 years they are planning a rather big axe to the railway, be it fire and rehire of staff, or closing lesser used branch lines outside of peak summer, all Beeching like stuff. The fact Sunak uses a Helicopter when a train would do doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.....

Please God no.