Minimum Service Levels Bill receives Royal Assent

[Sonik]

That doesn’t really follow.

Person A may be someone in their late 20s with a mortgage plus medium or large size family who needs the extra money to make ends meet.

Person B may be someone in their 50s who has a house paid off, grown up small family, and for whom their salary is more than enough to keep their finances afloat. They might do RDW occasionally to help out if their depot has good ER and the management need a duty covering. Note the bit about “good ER” there!

Everyone is different.

That's a fair point, but (as with any job) the job exists to run the railway not to suit the personal situation of the employee. Since this kind of thing comes with the job, if it doesn't suit then go do something else.

I will however concede that there is clearly an issue in some TOCs with deliberate under staffing that does need to be addressed. Therefore it's not unreasonable to demand that flexible working should be contingent on defined minimum staffing levels, to ensure that 'compulsory' RDW is not excessive.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2023 ==

From your previous posts this just undermines you know very little about the subject.

Please do explain what I'm missing

 

[bramling]

Please God no.

Does it really even matter who wins the next election? I’m finished with *all* of them. None of the current crop of political parties are serving this country well at the moment, and haven’t done so for some time. Labour will bring their own set of problems, though I do agree they are probably marginally the lesser of evils.

It’s also worth remembering that Labour’s piss-poor opposition for many years is part of the reason the Conservatives have been able to get away with so much. It’s not an excuse to say that Labour haven’t been in government; they have been the official opposition, and indeed receive remuneration for carrying out that role.

So depressing.

 

[GusB]

That's a fair point, but (as with any job) the job exists to run the railway not to suit the personal situation of the employee. Since this kind of thing comes with the job, if it doesn't suit then go do something else.

I don't normally get involved with threads like this, but "the job" should ensure that there are enough people in place to run the business without having to rely on people giving up their days off in order to get things done. I don't work on the railway and never have done, but most of my working life has involved shift work; whole weekends off were rare and I often had to work unsocial hours. I knew this when taking on the job, but that doesn't negate the fact that I'm as entitled to rest days as anyone else.

In some jobs it's rare to get two consecutive days off, so you can probably understand why I'd get upset when I got the call asking me to come in to work on my days off when I had plans do to things that nine-to-fivers take for granted. If I had nothing else to do, I was usually more than happy to do the company a favour and cover a shift when asked, but rarely were those favours returned.

To take the "if you don't like it, leave and find another job" line isn't helpful. Perhaps you should volunteer for a few night shifts with an ambulance crew, or do a stint in Accident and Emergency for a couple of days. You don't even have to be in the business of saving lives - do a stint on a supermarket checkout with all the abuse it comes with and you'll soon appreciate how precious that time off actually is.

 

[Irascible]

The fact RDW is even permitted let alone relied on in a safety-critical environment makes me quite uneasy ( as it does in other industries ). Words fail me at the "can't be bothered to give up rest days to cover shoddy recruitment" attitude. Well they don't, but printable ones do.

Our politics are so shoddy because anyone with half a brain has been emigrating for the last 60 years or so.

 

[Sonik]

To take the "if you don't like it, leave and find another job" line isn't helpful. Perhaps you should volunteer for a few night shifts with an ambulance crew, or do a stint in Accident and Emergency for a couple of days. You don't even have to be in the business of saving lives - do a stint on a supermarket checkout with all the abuse it comes with and you'll soon appreciate how precious that time off actually is.

I've spent decades doing long irregular shifts and anti-social hours. Yes it's sometimes a grind but in some sectors it goes with the territory.

So I don't think it's very reasonable to take a well paid job in a 24/7 service industry, then complain about the hours being too much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2023 ==

Words fail me at the "can't be bothered to give up rest days to cover shoddy recruitment" attitude.

I did already say that under staffing needs to be tackled to ensure RDW isn't excessive.

 

[Snow1964]

The fact RDW is even permitted let alone relied on in a safety-critical environment makes me quite uneasy ( as it does in other industries ). Words fail me at the "can't be bothered to give up rest days to cover shoddy recruitment" attitude. Well they don't, but printable ones do.

Our politics are so shoddy because anyone with half a brain has been emigrating for the last 60 years or so.

In many industries Rest Day Working doesn't even exist as a concept. I had to look it up. I don't work in the railways but had only ever come across rostered hours and voluntary overtime. Holidays were also first come first served (never allowed more than certain number to book same days off)

The idea of compulsory overtime or RDW just seems to be weird to me, just seems like an excuse to cover failed to recruit and employ enough staff and train them for their roles.

The fact that it doesn't exist in most industries suggests it was something the railway unions thought would be good idea instead of voluntary overtime. But someone needs to explain to me the benefits of it that allowed it to start.

 

[Annetts key]

There is no legal obligation for a company to pay sick pay at all, whether you have a certificate or not, just the Statutory Sick Pay.

But if an employee complies with normal company practice and its in their employment contract or their terms and conditions are part of a collective bargaining agreement, they or their union could bring civil legal action against the company if they refused to pay the employee the amount as determined by the employment contract or their terms and conditions.

 

[Vespa]

In many industries Rest Day Working doesn't even exist as a concept. I had to look it up. I don't work in the railways but had only ever come across rostered hours and voluntary overtime. Holidays were also first come first served (never allowed more than certain number to book same days off)

The idea of compulsory overtime or RDW just seems to be weird to me, just seems like an excuse to cover failed to recruit and employ enough staff and train them for their roles.

The fact that it doesn't exist in most industries suggests it was something the railway unions thought would be good idea instead of voluntary overtime. But someone needs to explain to me the benefits of it that allowed it to start.

It does in my job, because of driving hours regulations not everybody is able to work long hours on overtime, rest day work is given as option usuallly created by longer days with longer weekends/rest days to get round it and create driver availability.

However while I occasionally do overtime I also have the option of enjoying a longer weekend while the overtime Kings hoover up the hours.

 

[SynthD]

The MPs said a minimum service level provided on strike days should be at least as good as typically provided on previous strike days

Does this start at the service level on strike days before now? If so, it seems to make the law ineffective. The unions may find it acceptable to maintain strike day timetables, even if they are working rather than their managers.

 

[baz962]

I've spent decades doing long irregular shifts and anti-social hours. Yes it's sometimes a grind but in some sectors it goes with the territory.

So I don't think it's very reasonable to take a well paid job in a 24/7 service industry, then complain about the hours being too much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2023 ==


I did already say that under staffing needs to be tackled to ensure RDW isn't excessive.

The flip side to that is I don't mind shifts and anti social hours. But as you say you know what the job entails and I agree. However the government want the shifts and rest days changed ( worsened) . Nope.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2023 ==

In many industries Rest Day Working doesn't even exist as a concept. I had to look it up. I don't work in the railways but had only ever come across rostered hours and voluntary overtime. Holidays were also first come first served (never allowed more than certain number to book same days off)

The idea of compulsory overtime or RDW just seems to be weird to me, just seems like an excuse to cover failed to recruit and employ enough staff and train them for their roles.

The fact that it doesn't exist in most industries suggests it was something the railway unions thought would be good idea instead of voluntary overtime. But someone needs to explain to me the benefits of it that allowed it to start.

RDW is voluntary not compulsory , unless committed Sundays. Compulsory overtime is things like if you are halfway through the journey and there is a delay , you will be late back and can't just dump your train. Also if you are spare , so at my company the spare shifts are the same length as the average day - 8.45.
However if they need a ten hour job covering you are then doing compulsory overtime.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2023 ==

Does this start at the service level on strike days before now? If so, it seems to make the law ineffective. The unions may find it acceptable to maintain strike day timetables, even if they are working rather than their managers.

At my toc no trains ran on aslef strike days , so that means that the same as typically provided would still be none.

 

[Annetts key]

So what's the constant argument over RDW then? The fact that people can't be bothered to do it shows that they are already well paid. There are plenty of people in safety critical roles on track who put up with a lot more for a lot less money.

Some railway companies have internal more restrictive rules and policies than the ‘hidden’ ‘recommendations’.

In actual fact, these restrictions are actually a BR policy, the relevant Hidden recommendations are:

18. BR shall ensure that overtime is monitored so that no individual is working excessive levels of overtime.
19. BR, in conjunction with the Unions, shall introduce the concept of scheduled hours within the Signals and Telecommunications Department in order to make better provision for work which has to be carried out at weekends.

There is no recommendation that specifically defines the maximum length of shift, minimum amount of rest or any other detail.
And under the BR ‘rules’, it is possible to work for more than 12 hours (but there is a procedure to follow if this is needed). And the minimum rest is not 12 hours (again, this has to be justified).

If people don't want to work irregular and anti-social hours then go work in a 9-5 industry.

This is a straw man argument. If everyone did this, all those that work 9 to 5 would complain like hell about everything shutting down after 5pm…

The fact is that since privatisation, and even more so since the government started directly meddling in the railways, the work-life balance for many employees has been getting worse. This is a combination of things, one is due to money or rather, the lack of it, one is due to ideology, and one is due to impractical ideas on how to run and maintain the railways.

It’s not that employees don’t know that they will be required to work irregular and anti-social hours. It’s more that the amount of working work irregular and anti-social hour is increasing each year.

Some people who have worked on the railways for many years are now having to work double (or more) nights compared to just twelve years ago.

And it’s not even if passengers benefit. Ticket prices normally go up at the RPI rate of inflation each year. And although the reliability is not as bad as it has been, it’s definitely still atrocious.

 

[yorksrob]

Off topic

 

[Annetts key]

In many industries Rest Day Working doesn't even exist as a concept. I had to look it up. I don't work in the railways but had only ever come across rostered hours and voluntary overtime. Holidays were also first come first served (never allowed more than certain number to book same days off)

The idea of compulsory overtime or RDW just seems to be weird to me, just seems like an excuse to cover failed to recruit and employ enough staff and train them for their roles.

The fact that it doesn't exist in most industries suggests it was something the railway unions thought would be good idea instead of voluntary overtime. But someone needs to explain to me the benefits of it that allowed it to start.

RDW exists because it’s cheaper than employing enough staff to cover the job properly. So it’s all about money.

The limited resources available (lack of money again) to the railway training organisations also often makes the situation worse.

And as the rate of pay falls compared to other industries and to the rate of inflation, and as the work-life balance and the working conditions get worse, the number of employees leaving makes the situation even worse.

 

[Class 317]

People seem to be missing that one recommendation from the committee was to provide a service over the whole country.

If this recommendation is taken up alongside the recommendation to provide a comparable level of service to existing strike timetables this could see an improvement in strike day timetables offered. In particular it could see a limited service provided in those areas where no service is currently provided.

I'm not expecting all lines to be served either as the recommendation is where alternative public transport is unavailable.

We'll see what that means in practice when it's first implemented.

 

[Snow1964]

RDW exists because it’s cheaper than employing enough staff to cover the job properly. So it’s all about money.

The limited resources available (lack of money again) to the railway training organisations also often makes the situation worse.

RDW is voluntary not compulsory , unless committed Sundays.

If RDW is voluntary, presumably it only works if staff opt to accept it.

This really comes back to what unions have agreed to, they must have accepted an overtime rate that is cheaper for the company than getting them to employ enough staff to do the job properly.

Presumably those who like lots of overtime hours have shouted louder to union reps than employees who want it staffed properly

 

[dk1]

If RDW is voluntary, presumably it only works if staff opt to accept it.

This really comes back to what unions have agreed to, they must have accepted an overtime rate that is cheaper for the company than getting them to employ enough staff to do the job properly.

Presumably those who like lots of overtime hours have shouted louder to union reps than employees who want it staffed properly

RDW has to be voluntary whereas Sundays unless in the working week need to be committed as it’s all overtime. I’m fine with that as it’s fair and how it always has been at my TOC. There has to be that agreement on both sides for the latter else the company will always get held to ransom as has been seen so many times in the past.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2023 ==

We are getting a little off topic here I think however.

 

[irish_rail]

Does it really even matter who wins the next election? I’m finished with *all* of them. None of the current crop of political parties are serving this country well at the moment, and haven’t done so for some time. Labour will bring their own set of problems, though I do agree they are probably marginally the lesser of evils.

It’s also worth remembering that Labour’s piss-poor opposition for many years is part of the reason the Conservatives have been able to get away with so much. It’s not an excuse to say that Labour haven’t been in government; they have been the official opposition, and indeed receive remuneration for carrying out that role.

So depressing.

Perhaps not, but as I alluded, the Tories are apparently planning something really quite nasty on the railways, something along the line of Beeching with removal of lines and services, as well as potentially fire and rehire. I know I'd sooner take my chance with Labour or Lib dems, both as railway staff and also as a railway user and passenger.

 

[Annetts key]

If RDW is voluntary, presumably it only works if staff opt to accept it.

This really comes back to what unions have agreed to, they must have accepted an overtime rate that is cheaper for the company than getting them to employ enough staff to do the job properly.

Presumably those who like lots of overtime hours have shouted louder to union reps than employees who want it staffed properly

Rates of pay for working overtime/RDW/working Sundays varies enormously across the industry. In my area you only get your normal rate of pay for working overtime/RDW. The changes (reductions) have been driven by the company not by the unions.

RMT policy (in general) is to try to get the employer to employ enough full time employees to cover the job properly.

 

[dk1]

Rates of pay for working overtime/RDW/working Sundays varies enormously across the industry. In my area you only get your normal rate of pay for working overtime/RDW. The changes (reductions) have been driven by the company not by the unions.

Something like time + 1/8th here but obviously more for Sunday working.

 

[Annetts key]

Back on topic, how does the new law affect a member of staff who has part (or all) of a strike day as a rest day? Could a company issue a notice to work to an employee who has part of that day as a rest day?

Note a rest day is not 00:01 to 23:59, but is the time between booking off after your last turn until you book on for your next turn, where the hours off are a minimum interval of 32 hours.

 

[Snow1964]

Back on topic, how does the new law affect a member of staff who has part (or all) of a strike day as a rest day? Could a company issue a notice to work to an employee who has part of that day as a rest day?

Note a rest day is not 00:01 to 23:59, but is the time between booking off after your last turn until you book on for your next turn, where the hours off are a minimum interval of 32 hours.

I might have misread it, but looks to me they firstly check how many staff not on strike are covering, can potentially ask for volunteers to work, then can tell some of those rostered (but who were planning to strike) to make up the balance of the minimum requirement.

As far as I can tell there is no compulsory requirement for those who were never scheduled to be in anyway. Obviously some might accept as volunteers to work (especially if extra pay/bonuses)

I haven't yet fathomed how the balance of the minimum is decided, who chooses or how it is decided which staff get to make up the minimum if they were planning to strike

 

[dk1]

Back on topic, how does the new law affect a member of staff who has part (or all) of a strike day as a rest day? Could a company issue a notice to work to an employee who has part of that day as a rest day?

Note a rest day is not 00:01 to 23:59, but is the time between booking off after your last turn until you book on for your next turn, where the hours off are a minimum interval of 32 hours.

Blimey that’s making my head hurt & I used to be a roster clerk. Don’t quite get what you mean.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2023 ==

Strike normally only affects booking ON times during the industrial action.

 

[bramling]

RDW exists because it’s cheaper than employing enough staff to cover the job properly. So it’s all about money.

In some cases you can add poor management to that as well.

The whole process for filling posts can be dysfunctional in some places, and this can be for reasons as simple as managements simply don’t have the aptitude to be able to run an effective recruitment process. I don’t just mean the immediate process of recruiting people, but the wider process which extends to managing retirements, managing vacancies, managing training, etc.

The limited resources available (lack of money again) to the railway training organisations also often makes the situation worse.

And as the rate of pay falls compared to other industries and to the rate of inflation, and as the work-life balance and the working conditions get worse, the number of employees leaving makes the situation even worse.

Agreed.

 

[Annetts key]

What I’m getting at, is if they (where permitted) can change your shift start time (bring it forward) and compel you to work on a strike day that otherwise would have been a rest day for you.

Or alternatively change your shift to a later time (where permitted) and compel you to work on a strike day.

The other thing, and the job of a signaller is a good example, if there is a function where a small number of staff affect a significant part of the network, how is it going to work in practice.

In order to provide a minimum service level, could the company make as many as half the employees work?

 

[dk1]

What I’m getting at, is if they (where permitted) can change your shift start time (bring it forward) and compel you to work on a strike day that otherwise would have been a rest day for you.

Or alternatively change your shift to a later time (where permitted) and compel you to work on a strike day.

The other thing, and the job of a signaller is a good example, if there is a function where a small number of staff affect a significant part of the network, how is it going to work in practice.

In order to provide a minimum service level, could the company make as many as half the employees work?

As traincrew they would not be able to bring my shift forward or back any more than the agreed 3hr movement only if the turn is cancelled. Under no circumstances whatsoever could they enforce a RDW upon anyone.

 

[Annetts key]

As traincrew they would not be able to bring my shift forward or back any more than the agreed 3hr movement only if the turn is cancelled. Under no circumstances whatsoever could they enforce a RDW upon anyone.

For Network Rail Infrastructure staff, they can, with a minimum of 48 hours notice, change up to 10% of shifts on a roster to another shift on the same day (so could change a early shift to a night shift for example). Or can move your start or finish time (or both) by two hours. They can’t make you work a rest day. But as I said above, a rest day is very specifically defined, it’s not a 00:01 to 23:59 day.

 

[dk1]

For Network Rail Infrastructure staff, they can, with a minimum of 48 hours notice, change up to 10% of shifts on a roster to another shift on the same day (so could change a early shift to a night shift for example). Or can move your start or finish time (or both) by two hours. They can’t make you work a rest day. But as I said above, a rest day is very specifically defined, it’s not a 00:01 to 23:59 day.

Ah see what you mean. Very different indeed with traincrew.

 

[PM77]

For Network Rail Infrastructure staff, they can, with a minimum of 48 hours notice, change up to 10% of shifts on a roster to another shift on the same day (so could change a early shift to a night shift for example). Or can move your start or finish time (or both) by two hours. They can’t make you work a rest day. But as I said above, a rest day is very specifically defined, it’s not a 00:01 to 23:59 day.

The two hour rule is indefinite in the roster, there is no limit to how many times this can be done, as long as 48h notice is given. They can only move the shift times by 2h, they can't do both as that could mean the shift length could change, ie. start 2h ealier and finish 2h later would increase your shift length by 2h. You can personally agree to this, but you can't be made to do it.

 

[Annetts key]

The two hour rule is indefinite in the roster, there is no limit to how many times this can be done, as long as 48h notice is given. They can only move the shift times by 2h, they can't do both as that could mean the shift length could change, ie. start 2h ealier and finish 2h later would increase your shift length by 2h. You can personally agree to this, but you can't be made to do it.

Yes, the number of times they can move your start/finish by up to two hours is unlimited. Sorry if my post did not make that clear.

 

[baz962]

If RDW is voluntary, presumably it only works if staff opt to accept it.

This really comes back to what unions have agreed to, they must have accepted an overtime rate that is cheaper for the company than getting them to employ enough staff to do the job properly.

Presumably those who like lots of overtime hours have shouted louder to union reps than employees who want it staffed properly

The union does accept RDW but it's reasoning is usually for unusual amounts of sickness plus to cover training , not for the companies to under resource