Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[Trainbike46]

The only way that Derby would be able to continue, is for a current order for Aventra trains be extended to include more units for either C2C/Greater Anglia/South Western Railway and then these units then move on to say South Eastern. Similar things have been done before with orders for class 387 units which where initially ordered I believe as a follow on order to class 377 trains ordered, but ended up being used on Thameslink services to replace the class 319 units prior to the class 700 units arriving. However, difference being though that I believe Southern at that time was part of GOVIA Thameslink, so in essence where being ordered for the same train operator.

I can't imagine anyone wanting more aventras, other than potentially a few extra 345s for crossrail for when the HS2 extension to Old Oak Common starts

 

[Mikey C]

Maybe Southwestern could order some new trains to replace the 701s

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't imagine anyone wanting more aventras, other than potentially a few extra 345s for crossrail for when the HS2 extension to Old Oak Common starts

There's a potential large bimode order for Northern there.

If they don't bid competitively on that then they may well just be engineering their own demise.

 

[Trainbike46]

There's a potential large bimode order for Northern there.

If they don't bid competitively on that then they may well just be engineering their own demise.

The poster I was replying to was suggested extension orders of the existing aventra orders, and I don't think SWR, GA, LNWR, LO are likely to want anymore of them tbh, simply because their current orders are large enough. And the issues experienced with them will make extra add-on orders even less likely.

I do agree Alstom could (and should) have a good chance for the SE, Northern and Chiltern new rolling stock orders, if they offer a design suitable for the needs of those regions

There's also the Scottish new trains order coming up, and GWR project Churchward potentially, assuming these are going ahead

 

[Bletchleyite]

The poster I was replying to was suggested extension orders of the existing aventra orders, and I don't think SWR, GA, LNWR, LO are likely to want anymore of them tbh, simply because their current orders are large enough. And the issues experienced with them will make extra add-on orders even less likely.

Agreed. There's a surplus of straight suburban EMUs, particularly 25kV ones - it's unlikely any more will need ordering for a good while.

 

[Snow1964]

Agreed. There's a surplus of straight suburban EMUs, particularly 25kV ones - it's unlikely any more will need ordering for a good while.

Yes, I think everyone is agreeing, apart from the extra 4 class 345s no one sees a need for more commuter EMUs without batteries short term

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes, I think everyone is agreeing, apart from the extra 4 class 345s no one sees a need for more commuter EMUs without batteries short term

Alstom should be given the 345 extra order without delay but with 30x379's sitting idle similar amount of 350's shortly to become available and thats before we add in the 20x720's GA say they don't need and probably C2C don't really need there 720s either there is no demand for new EMUs for sometime given none of the electrification schemes being promoted in England will generate any demand for EMUs.

Thus im afraid i can't see these jobs being saved sadly but Derby has Rolls Royce so good demand for skilled staff and im sure newton Aycliffe could build HS2 trains and thats if they even what all of them now.

 

[Sonik]

Agreed. There's a surplus of straight suburban EMUs, particularly 25kV ones - it's unlikely any more will need ordering for a good while.

Bombardier (as was) made the mistake of trusting the Government's commitment to electrification and phasing out diesel trains, so they didn't bother to do a diesel/bimode Aventra as they didn't see the demand.

In hindsight that looks a bit short sighted, as now they are faced with the difficult choice of either having to swallow the development costs of doing a 'special' for relatively small orders, or not having many opportunities to bid for.

I guess they still have options to do a solution like the power car on the FLIRTs, or sticking generator packs under an electric train like the 769. These could be attractive because they allow for later conversion to a straight electric train.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Scottish government if it wanted to could do a bit of political point scoring by awarding the Glasgow suburban electrics full fleet replacement to Derby and therefore make a big noise about how Scotland was saving jobs that England and the Tories were going to let go

 

[Roast Veg]

Perhaps Alstom can be awarded some sort of R&D project to tide them over, like a battery or hydrogen study. Then it doesn't have to go out to tender.

 

[43096]

Perhaps Alstom can be awarded some sort of R&D project to tide them over, like a battery or hydrogen study. Then it doesn't have to go out to tender.

R&D contracts will do nothing for production line jobs.

 

[Yew]

From what I seem to remember reading somewhere, apparently a bi-mode Aventra was offered to EMR for the Intercity fleet replacement. But, it was all too easy to award the order to the manufacturer with an effective monopoly over IC stock.

It's worth remembering that BR used to make a point of entering that monopolies like this didn't happen, for example with the 155 and 156 classes. I must admit I'm a bit worried, as I can't think of another current UK gauge intercity supplier. I suppose maybe CAF Mk5's and a 125mph locomotive?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's worth remembering that BR used to make a point of entering that monopolies like this didn't happen, for example with the 155 and 156 classes. I must admit I'm a bit worried, as I can't think of another current UK gauge intercity supplier. I suppose maybe CAF Mk5's and a 125mph locomotive?

CAF also do the 397, an EMU.

 

[Trainbike46]

It's worth remembering that BR used to make a point of entering that monopolies like this didn't happen, for example with the 155 and 156 classes. I must admit I'm a bit worried, as I can't think of another current UK gauge intercity supplier. I suppose maybe CAF Mk5's and a 125mph locomotive?

UK IC suppliers:
- Hitachi (80x family)
- CAF (397 / Mk5 coaches)
- Stadler (GA FLIRT, and they also bid a FLIRT/SMILE for the EMR IC contract)
- I believe Talgo has also bid for UK IC contracts

so while Hitachi is very big in the IC market, they are definitely not the only game in town

 

[Dan G]

Bombardier (as was) made the mistake of trusting the Government's commitment to electrification and phasing out diesel trains, so they didn't bother to do a diesel/bimode Aventra as they didn't see the demand.

In hindsight that looks a bit short sighted, as now they are faced with the difficult choice of either having to swallow the development costs of doing a 'special' for relatively small orders, or not having many opportunities to bid for.

I guess they still have options to do a solution like the power car on the FLIRTs, or sticking generator packs under an electric train like the 769. These could be attractive because they allow for later conversion to a straight electric train.

The Aventra is the direct descendant (same underframe even?) of the Electrostar which was an EMU variant of the Turbostar. I'm sure Alstom could put a generator and batteries under the Aventra.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

UK IC suppliers:
- Hitachi (80x family)
- CAF (397 / Mk5 coaches)
- Stadler (GA FLIRT, and they also bid a FLIRT/SMILE for the EMR IC contract)
- I believe Talgo has also bid for UK IC contracts

so while Hitachi is very big in the IC market, they are definitely not the only game in town

Talgo bid for the HS2 rolling stock contract, and so did Siemens.
All except Stadler can offer UK assembly of their trains (Talgo would have built their HS2 trains in Scotland).

With the HS2 contract sewn up (Hitachi/Alstom), and all the recent Hitachi 80x deliveries, there is little to compete for in the IC market in the next decade.
The procurement priority is for bi-mode/battery/hydrogen regional trains.
Alstom has solutions but they are not for UK gauge, or designed in Derby.
An Alstom-Stadler joint bid might work, though, if it was for a decent order volume.

 

[Roast Veg]

The Aventra is the direct descendant (same underframe even?) of the Electrostar which was an EMU variant of the Turbostar. I'm sure Alstom could put a generator and batteries under the Aventra.

Sure they can, but all signs so far suggest they don't want to.

 

[RailWonderer]

Sure they can, but all signs so far suggest they don't want to.

I've been saying for years they should consider a diesel Aventra, or a bi-mode, in fact they did offer a 125mph bi-mode tht nobody ordered so I don't see what stops them from offering a 100mph regional bi-mode. To save their jobs I'm sure they won't turn their nose up at an order like that.

 

[Roast Veg]

I've been saying for years they should consider a diesel Aventra, or a bi-mode, in fact they did offer a 125mph bi-mode tht nobody ordered so I don't see what stops them from offering a 100mph regional bi-mode. To save their jobs I'm sure they won't turn their nose up at an order like that.

I suspect they can't get it cheap enough to make it saleable.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've been saying for years they should consider a diesel Aventra, or a bi-mode, in fact they did offer a 125mph bi-mode tht nobody ordered so I don't see what stops them from offering a 100mph regional bi-mode. To save their jobs I'm sure they won't turn their nose up at an order like that.

Alstom may have other fish to fry - they have multiple platforms and many production sites to keep afloat.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Scottish government if it wanted to could do a bit of political point scoring by awarding the Glasgow suburban electrics full fleet replacement to Derby and therefore make a big noise about how Scotland was saving jobs that England and the Tories were going to let go

Given that those saved jobs would be English jobs, I’m not sure that will mean much to the SNP voter base.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Given that those saved jobs would be English jobs, I’m not sure that will mean much to the SNP voter base.

True, but given how Scott gov currently likes to manufactured grievances with Westminster there's a heaven sent opportunity here for them to do just that

 

[Mikey C]

The problem affects all the rolling stock companies. Quoting a paywalled article in The Times

Britain’s four rolling stock companies are set to be left with little or no work by the end of next year because of the government’s failure to order any new main line trains for almost four years.

The situation could threaten thousands of jobs, lose talent from the country’s 30,000-strong manufacturing base and dislocate a supply chain that includes thousands of small businesses, according to a report by the Railway Industry Association.

 

[Townsend Hook]

True, but given how Scott gov currently likes to manufactured grievances with Westminster there's a heaven sent opportunity here for them to do just that

It still seems like a bit of a stretch to me to suggest that they’d decide such a major procurement decision on the basis of ‘manufacturing a grievance’ with zero real political benefit.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Scotrail's last two fleet purchases were with Siemens and Hitachi.
Talgo promised to open a factory at Longannet if they won the HS2 order.
Not much of Derby's output has originated in Scotland.

FirstGroup is based in Aberdeen.
The class 385 fleet is owned by a Japanese bank.

 

[Speed43125]

Scotrail's last two fleet purchases were with Siemens and Hitachi.
Talgo promised to open a factory at Longannet if they won the HS2 order.
Not much of Derby's output has originated in Scotland.

FirstGroup is based in Aberdeen.
The class 385 fleet is owned by a Japanese bank.

Scotrail was until EGIP/HST introduction the largest turbostar operator.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Scotrail was until EGIP/HST introduction the largest turbostar operator.

I meant the components of Derby output were not made in Scotland.
Turbostars might have been different, but I doubt Avantras have many Scottish-sourced components.
Class 380/385 would have kept German and Japanese supply chains busy.

 

[Speed43125]

I meant the components of Derby output were not made in Scotland.
Turbostars might have been different, but I doubt Avantras have many Scottish-sourced components.
Class 380/385 would have kept German and Japanese supply chains busy.

Ah I see now yes. My apologies.

 

[Invincible]

Perhaps Alstom can be awarded some sort of R&D project to tide them over, like a battery or hydrogen study. Then it doesn't have to go out to tender.

There was an "agreement" for 10 test trains, but never became an order.

Alstom and Eversholt Rail sign an agreement for the UK’s first ever brand-new hydrogen train fleet

New co-operation agreement aims to provide an initial fleet of 10 new hydrogen trains for UK

www.alstom.com

The only battery tests are the 230 one at Grenford or some of the class 777s in Merseyside.

 

[HSTEd]

The problem affects all the rolling stock companies. Quoting a paywalled article in The Times

The simple reality is that there is nowhere near enough business to support every manufacturer.

Government made comical estimates of export orders that have, predictably, not materialised.