Operations of the Waterloo-Exeter 50s (and loco diagramming in general)

[nw1]

Another question related to time I spent at Woking back in the 80s.

Can anyone remember the typical diagramming of the 50s on the Exeters? In particular, how did they get "on and off" the SWML, was it at the Waterloo end or the Exeter end?

CWNs reveal that the coaching stock typically turned around at Waterloo and formed the next available down service. However CWNs do not show loco movements.

Did the inbound 50 follow the inbound stock out, sit at Clapham for a while, and then come back into Waterloo for the following outbound service? Or did something more complex happen such as light engine movements to and from OOC to get the locos to and from their home Western Region? Were there any diagrams that would do an Exeter-Waterloo, and then later in the day (after refuelling, perhaps?) work something out of Paddington?

I can't remember offhand the exact patterns: I seem to remember they were a bit irregular and unpredictable. You saw a fair few 50s during the day if you spent time at Woking.

More generally, there are a few CWNs dotted around the internet, mostly on groups.io, but are there any records anywhere of loco diagramming from the 80s (or any other 'modern' era?)

Thanks.

 

[hexagon789]

Another question related to time I spent at Woking back in the 80s.

Can anyone remember the typical diagramming of the 50s on the Exeters? In particular, how did they get "on and off" the SWML, was it at the Waterloo end or the Exeter end?

CWNs reveal that the coaching stock typically turned around at Waterloo and formed the next available down service. However CWNs do not show loco movements.

Did the inbound 50 follow the inbound stock out, sit at Clapham for a while, and then come back into Waterloo for the following outbound service? Or did something more complex happen such as light engine movements to and from OOC to get the locos to and from their home Western Region? Were there any diagrams that would do an Exeter-Waterloo, and then later in the day (after refuelling, perhaps?) work something out of Paddington?

I can't remember offhand the exact patterns: I seem to remember they were a bit irregular and unpredictable. You saw a fair few 50s during the day if you spent time at Woking.

More generally, there are a few CWNs dotted around the internet, mostly on groups.io, but are there any records anywhere of loco diagramming from the 80s (or any other 'modern' era?)

Thanks.

I have diagrams for 1986, if that's any interest?

 

[Gloster]

My miscellaneous recollections are that the changeover was done at Exeter. At Waterloo the loco would wait on the buffers until the stock it had brought in had gone out on the next service, then move out to the sidings outside the station and then drop on to the country end of the next train to arrive and take that out as the next service. Generally they didn’t work other main trains than the Waterloos line services during the day, but they could be used on Exeter-Paignton or Plymouth trains as part of the workings to get them and the stock back to Laira.

 

[Cowley]

My miscellaneous recollections are that the changeover was done at Exeter. At Waterloo the loco would wait on the buffers until the stock it had brought in had gone out on the next service, then move out to the sidings outside the station and then drop on to the country end of the next train to arrive and take that out as the next service. Generally they didn’t work other main trains than the Waterloos line services during the day, but they could be used on Exeter-Paignton or Plymouth trains as part of the workings to get them and the stock back to Laira.

Yes that’s what I remember from back then. The route was covered by 50s that were all based at Laira and there was an early Newton Abbot to Exeter working for example that often produced a pair of 50s to get them into place for the early morning workings.

 

[30907]

I think at times shunt-release was used at Waterloo when 50s were in short supply.
A quick search finds this site:
http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/features/historical-features/watexdieselops.html
However I am sure there is a more detailed record online - I can't find it, but it might be linked from previous threads about the route.

 

[nw1]

I have diagrams for 1986, if that's any interest?

Yes, very much so - thanks.

Thanks also for the other replies.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==

Yes that’s what I remember from back then. The route was covered by 50s that were all based at Laira and there was an early Newton Abbot to Exeter working for example that often produced a pair of 50s to get them into place for the early morning workings.

Does this also mean that only a subset of 50s (those based at LA as opposed to OC) typically worked the route? I do know that examples throughout the whole range (001-050) appeared though can't remember whether there were specific engines that never appeared.

 

[Magdalia]

In those days two of the middle platforms at Waterloo, opposite the arch, were wide apart with a roadway for vehicles to get in and out with mail and newspapers. I can't remember the platform numbers but possibly 11 and 12?

At the country end were two docks where locos stabled between duties, so locos could arrive on one set of stock and depart on the next set of stock without needing to go out to Clapham Junction.

The 1982 diagrams are just what would be expected from this:

0545 Plymouth-Exeter
0737 Exeter-Waterloo
1510 Waterloo-Exeter
2020 Exeter-Basingstoke
0004 Basingstoke-Salisbury

0640 Salisbury-Waterloo
1110 Waterloo-Exeter
1618 Exeter-Waterloo

0650 Waterloo-Exeter
1220 Exeter-Waterloo
1910 Waterloo-Exeter

0625 Exeter-Waterloo
1310 Waterloo-Exeter
1818 Exeter-Waterloo

0910 Waterloo-Exeter
1418 Exeter-Waterloo
2010 Waterloo-Salisbury

0632 Salisbury-Exeter
0938 Exeter-Waterloo
1700 Waterloo-Exeter
2112 Exeter-Newton Abbot

 

[Big Jumby 74]

There were early morning and late evening trips (swaps) between Waterloo and Old Oak at times, although can't remember if these were base plan diagram moves or add hoc swaps for unplanned refuelling, or faults.

 

[Taunton]

Do I remember correctly that there was a fuel tanker, with a pump and hoses (and knowing BR it would need a dieselman as well), placed in the sidings where the Eurostar terminal was later. If things looked low on fuel they would go across there for servicing.

I don't know if the Class 50 had the reputation for running out of fuel that the Warships did.

 

[ac6000cw]

I don't know if the Class 50 had the reputation for running out of fuel that the Warships did.

According to the info on the web page linked in post #5, a major reason for using the 50's was their long fuel range when using ETH/ETS:

 

[Taunton]

The issue with the steam heat locos was that space between the bogies was required for, not only fuel, but also for boiler water. This was the main reason why the Class 50 (and indeed the Class 33 in a smaller loco) could do a longer range - space for a bigger fuel tank. There were two versions of Class 47 with ETH, one had dual heat and still had all the steam gubbins, another had boiler and water tank removed, and the fuel tank enlarged to give a range similar to the Class 50. I believe the 47/7 transferred from Scotland to replace the Class 50 on this line were like this.

Class 33 on Waterloo to Exeter apparently were substantially run in winter with one hand on the ETH control, switched off accelerating from stations or charging Honiton bank, back on when full power not needed for traction.

 

[JonathanH]

Isn't there also a distinction in diagramming between when Laira was the base, up until the last year or so, and when it was switched to Old Oak Common for locomotives and Eastleigh for carriages, right at the end?

 

[nw1]

In those days two of the middle platforms at Waterloo, opposite the arch, were wide apart with a roadway for vehicles to get in and out with mail and newspapers. I can't remember the platform numbers but possibly 11 and 12?

At the country end were two docks where locos stabled between duties, so locos could arrive on one set of stock and depart on the next set of stock without needing to go out to Clapham Junction.

The 1982 diagrams are just what would be expected from this:

0545 Plymouth-Exeter
0737 Exeter-Waterloo
1510 Waterloo-Exeter
2020 Exeter-Basingstoke
0004 Basingstoke-Salisbury

0640 Salisbury-Waterloo
1110 Waterloo-Exeter
1618 Exeter-Waterloo

0650 Waterloo-Exeter
1220 Exeter-Waterloo
1910 Waterloo-Exeter

0625 Exeter-Waterloo
1310 Waterloo-Exeter
1818 Exeter-Waterloo

0910 Waterloo-Exeter
1418 Exeter-Waterloo
2010 Waterloo-Salisbury

0632 Salisbury-Exeter
0938 Exeter-Waterloo
1700 Waterloo-Exeter
2112 Exeter-Newton Abbot

Thanks for those.

Was trying to work out how the stock (not the loco, which is described above) for the 2010 Salisbury might be formed, but realised I have the hauled stock CWN for 1981 (not 1982, but close enough and same basic timetable).

It appears there was a relatively tight turnaround at Waterloo of 23 mins off the 1947 arrival from Exeter (1618 Exeter-Waterloo above, actually 1620 in 1981).

Another interesting feature is the change in pattern of the up services during the morning: 0625, then 0737, 0938 and then 1220, 1418, 1618, 1818 and 2020, so the 0737 and 0938 were off-pattern. That actually rings a bell from my days at Woking: I recall afternoon up services called at xx21 in odd hours (starting at 1521), but earlier in the day it was around xx36 in even hours. The site linked to above reveals that this was to provide sufficient morning arrivals into Waterloo.

Interestingly also the 0640 Salisbury-Waterloo called at Fleet and Farnborough, forming part of a standard 10-min (mostly) pattern of slow-line services from Basingstoke (called at 0730) during the morning peak, thus giving commuters from those stations the chance to travel in Mk-II stock hauled by a 50. As an aside, another interesting service from Fleet and Farnborough was 20 mins earlier (0710 Basingstoke) formed of 8TC+33 from Gillingham to Basingstoke, then the 33 was taken off and a REP was added on the front. The resulting 8TC+4REP would then form a standard Bournemouth line service. Perhaps this is the only time a Salisbury service has ever been pure electric traction for part of its journey.

The 0640 Salisbury (0730 Basingstoke) appeared to be introduced sometime between the late 70s and 1982, for the stock for the 0910 (perhaps 0900) Exeter was formerly formed off the morning Chertsey-Waterloo peak service, much discussed in other threads. The 0730 Basingstoke at that time was a standard Basingstoke starter, presumably formed of VEPs.

 

[Magdalia]

Class 33 on Waterloo to Exeter apparently were substantially run in winter with one hand on the ETH control, switched off accelerating from stations or charging Honiton bank, back on when full power not needed for traction.

During the class 33 era on the Waterloo-Exeter, train loads were reduced by 1 coach in winter to compensate for ETH.

Isn't there also a distinction in diagramming between when Laira was the base, up until the last year or so, and when it was switched to Old Oak Common for locomotives and Eastleigh for carriages, right at the end?

Sectorisation would have been key here: once the service was part of Network Southeast then servicing would have been at NSE depots.

 

[ac6000cw]

Sectorisation would have been key here: once the service was part of Network Southeast then servicing would have been at NSE depots.

From the Southern Electric Group webpage linked in post #5 (my bold):

Dedication of resources by sub-Sector to specific lines commenced in October 1987. Major works overhauls on Class 50s had by now ceased with power unit overhauls transferred from Doncaster to Crewe earlier in the year. As NSE gained responsibility for Class 50s the Sector sponsored maintenance of the type, along with coaching stock, at Laira, although the depot is some fifty miles beyond the nearest NSE route.

 

[JonathanH]

Does this also mean that only a subset of 50s (those based at LA as opposed to OC) typically worked the route? I do know that examples throughout the whole range (001-050) appeared though can't remember whether there were specific engines that never appeared.

There was a period where there were separate allocations to Laira and Old Oak Common in the NSE days, during which time it was the Laira examples that worked the route. Eventually all class 50s were at Laira.

Effectively, the electrification to Cambridge released 47s to Old Oak Common, which in turn released 50s to Laira. Later, 47/7s from Scotland allowed withdrawal of the class 50s, although NSE at Old Oak Common also lost some of its best class 47s to the parcels business, with ragbag 47s coming from Tinsley.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nse-westbury-london-paddington.215316/#post-5047874

 

[randyrippley]

According to the info on the web page linked in post #5, a major reason for using the 50's was their long fuel range when using ETH/ETS:

Have another look at the ETH figures, I've been convinced for years that the heat on / heat off figures are wrong in that table.
Using ETH MUST reduce the range, but that's not what the table shows

 

[nw1]

The Southern Electric Group page reveals some other interesting things, such as full 50 working in 1989, including Salisbury shorts, and even a 50 hauling a couple of TCs.

Never saw that (rarely visited Woking in 1989, and didn't realise 50s were doing the Salisbury shorts by then) but with 73s push/pulling TCs on a small number of '93' Bournemouth stoppers, that was quite an interesting year for historically-unusual formations! Looking back it's a great shame my interest in rail slipped a little round then (other things were taking over), for the 1989 timetable on the Waterloo lines was perhaps one of the most interesting of the late BR era and perhaps the year I'd most like to see a CWN for, if any ever turn up - due to some of the unusual workings described above.

Also, 1989 was the only year I actually had 50 haulage. Had an 'Explorer' bus ticket from Haslemere and wound up in Basingstoke, but then realised it was difficult to get back by bus (due to infrequent services E and SE from there) so took the first available train to Haslemere via Woking. That so happened to be hauled by 50007 Sir Edward Elgar - no idea whether it was an ex-Exeter or ex-Salisbury though. It would have been 1530-ish out of Basingstoke, I think: still daylight but not too far from sunset.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Do I remember correctly that there was a fuel tanker, with a pump and hoses

Have heard/read about that also, but presume it was dispensed with after the Warships finished. The North sidings were normally the domain of EMU's between the peaks and overnight, although each of the four (elec) roads could only accommodate 4 cars. The 33's, 47's and 50's working West would spend their down time in the Dock roads between (what was) p11 & 12, as mentioned above.

 

[randyrippley]

Do I remember correctly that there was a fuel tanker, with a pump and hoses (and knowing BR it would need a dieselman as well), placed in the sidings where the Eurostar terminal was later. If things looked low on fuel they would go across there for servicing.

I don't know if the Class 50 had the reputation for running out of fuel that the Warships did.

During Warship and 33 days there was an actual refueling depot (including tank) hard up against the north wall of the sidings, close to the vehicle lift to the Waterloo-City line. My understanding is this was removed when the lift was removed and replaced by crane access.

 

[Tony73E]

Class 50's used to work to Stewarts Lane for fuelling and minor repairs e.g. brake blocking.

 

[randyrippley]

.................another interesting service from Fleet and Farnborough was 20 mins earlier (0710 Basingstoke) formed of 8TC+33 from Gillingham to Basingstoke, then the 33 was taken off and a REP was added on the front. The resulting 8TC+4REP would then form a standard Bournemouth line service. Perhaps this is the only time a Salisbury service has ever been pure electric traction for part of its journey........

Possibly not........for a period in the 1970s there was a Yeovil-Waterloo Sunday afternoon service which started in Yeovil platform 1 (before it was made a through platform) and used an 8-TC/33 set. That may have changed to REP power at Basingstoke

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Isn't there also a distinction in diagramming between when Laira was the base, up until the last year or so, and when it was switched to Old Oak Common for locomotives and Eastleigh for carriages, right at the end?

I remember Eastleigh having responsibility for carriage maintenance in late NSE days but I never saw any reports as to how the stock got there from WoE duties. My assumption was that there must have been ecs workings to/from Salisbury: if so then did the 50s work those trains too?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I remember Eastleigh having responsibility for carriage maintenance in late NSE days but I never saw any reports as to how the stock got there from WoE duties. My assumption was that there must have been ecs workings to/from Salisbury: if so then did the 50s work those trains too?

Taking 1982 as an example there was a booked (WTT) ECS trip between Salisbury & Eastleigh Down Carr sidings at 01+30 (MX) after having worked the 20.10 ex Waterloo to Salisbury. This returned to Salisbury at 05+13 for the 06.40 Salisbury to Waterloo, both trips being worked by the loco on the (06.40) diagram. At Eastleigh the loco would have dropped on to the depot for servicing as required. The weekend situation was similar although the timings differed from weekday of course.
Another 9 WR set stabled in Clapham Yard each night after working 18.20 Exeter to Waterloo, forming the 06.50 Waterloo to Exeter next day. If my memory is correct this move was the one that involved the loco concerned, after dropping stock in Clapham Yard, tripped over to Old Oak for servicing, and swapping out if loco had to be stopped for anything more major.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Taking 1982 as an example there was a booked (WTT) ECS trip between Salisbury & Eastleigh Down Carr sidings at 01+30 (MX) after having worked the 20.10 ex Waterloo to Salisbury. This returned to Salisbury at 05+13 for the 06.40 Salisbury to Waterloo, both trips being worked by the loco on the (06.40) diagram. At Eastleigh the loco would have dropped on to the depot for servicing as required. The weekend situation was similar although the timings differed from weekday of course.
Another 9 WR set stabled in Clapham Yard each night after working 18.20 Exeter to Waterloo, forming the 06.50 Waterloo to Exeter next day. If my memory is correct this move was the one that involved the loco concerned, after dropping stock in Clapham Yard, tripped over to Old Oak for servicing, and swapping out if loco had to be stopped for anything more major.

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[CW2]

Yes that’s what I remember from back then. The route was covered by 50s that were all based at Laira and there was an early Newton Abbot to Exeter working for example that often produced a pair of 50s to get them into place for the early morning workings.

26/04/82 I was in Plymouth and needed to be in London. I knew about the pair of 50s often producing on the 0652 Newton Abbot - Exeter St Davids, so I did 47531 on the 0605 Plymouth - Liverpool, with the intention of covering the 0652 ex Newton Abbot. Things took a surreal turn when we came to a dead stand on Hemerdon. The Laira - Newton Abbot ECS had failed in front of us, and was limping into the loop at the top of Hemerdon. Nevertheless I alighted at Newton Abbot to see what happened next. Well, they had managed to revive the pair of 50s, 50035 + 50041, but to avoid disrupting the Exeter - Waterloo service they ran it ECS all the way to Exeter, so I was left standing on the platform at Newton Abbot as the pair swept through non-stop! Fortunately there was an HST not far behind, so I managed to get to Exeter in time to have 50041 (singly) to Waterloo. That nearly went so badly wrong!

 

[30907]

Another interesting feature is the change in pattern of the up services during the morning: 0625, then 0737, 0938 and then 1220, 1418, 1618, 1818 and 2020, so the 0737 and 0938 were off-pattern.

Apart from the 0938 which changed from 1020(ish) at some stage, the pattern was well-established from the start of the semi-fast service in the mid 60s - and apart from the standardising of stops, it was recognisably the same in the 1950s and even the 1930s (slightly less so in the down direction).

 

[Gloster]

Exeter departures:

1971: 06.15, 07.20, 10.15, 12.30, 14.33, 16.00, 18.00, 20.07
1975: 06.10, 07.45, 10.08, 12.45, 14.26, 15.53, 17,55, 19.55
1982: 06.25, 07.35, 09.38, 12.30, 14.18, 16.18, 18.18, 20.20

Last train in each case only to Basingstoke.

 

[Undaunted]

Was there not also a period in the late 1980s (1987/88 probably) when a class 50 and mark 2 stock worked a SX Waterloo to Portsmouth service (may have been the 09.20 from Waterloo) to provide loco and stock for a Portsmouth - Exeter service? I worked in Godalming at the time and unless I have completely lost the plot, I remember seeing it. I've no idea if there was an equivalent service the other way, but if there was it returned after 'normal' working hours.

 

[30907]

Exeter departures:

1971: 06.15, 07.20, 10.15, 12.30, 14.33, 16.00, 18.00, 20.07
1975: 06.10, 07.45, 10.08, 12.45, 14.26, 15.53, 17,55, 19.55
1982: 06.25, 07.35, 09.38, 12.30, 14.18, 16.18, 18.18, 20.20

Thanks. 1975 was about the nadir timings-wise.

Was there not also a period in the late 1980s (1987/88 probably) when a class 50 and mark 2 stock worked a SX Waterloo to Portsmouth service (may have been the 09.20 from Waterloo) to provide loco and stock for a Portsmouth - Exeter service? I worked in Godalming at the time and unless I have completely lost the plot, I remember seeing it. I've no idea if there was an equivalent service the other way, but if there was it returned after 'normal' working hohours.

There was indeed, though sadly I never got to sample it - memory says it ran off-pattern with few stops.