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Donald Trump and the aftermath of his presidency

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Cowley

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Even reading that word explosion kills off precious grey matter. Urgh.

I know Biden isn’t exactly a top performer but purely from the point of view of the Republicans trying to make hay out of that, this sort of stuff must be worrying for them?

It also shows just how weirdly obsessed with Obama he still is. So much of him running in the first place was due to his hatred of the guy.
 
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nlogax

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I know Biden isn’t exactly a top performer but purely from the point of view of the Republicans trying to make hay out of that, this sort of stuff must be worrying for them?

For some time I've suspected few in the GOP worry about this sort of thing anymore. Those that do feel they have to hide it in case they upset their bat**** insane voter base.
 

ainsworth74

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For some time I've suspected few in the GOP worry about this sort of thing anymore. Those that do feel they have to hide it in case they upset their bat**** insane voter base.

Yes I think the elected Republican Party now, broadly, contains two groups. There are the Trump true believers those who do honestly believe what he says and personally hold very similar views to what Trump says (at least what Trump says in public anyway). I actually think in Congress these are the smaller faction, potentially quite considerably smaller, but they are certainly the noisiest faction. At State and local level however I suspect this is quite probably the larger faction, at least in some states. The other group are the feckless cowards who will happily see the US (and potentially the rest of us) burn as long as they continue to gain advantage personally because they dare not criticise Trump for fear of being primary'd out of the party and losing their seat and therefore influence.

I don't think there is much else left beyond those two groups. Romney was probably the last high profile "classical" Republican who would be fairly recognisable in any era of the Republican party of the last few decades but even he seems to have finally had enough and is standing down at the next election. But beyond him I don't think that there are many people left who are still what you would recognise as a Republican.
 

Strathclyder

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Yes I think the elected Republican Party now, broadly, contains two groups. There are the Trump true believers those who do honestly believe what he says and personally hold very similar views to what Trump says (at least what Trump says in public anyway). I actually think in Congress these are the smaller faction, potentially quite considerably smaller, but they are certainly the noisiest faction. At State and local level however I suspect this is quite probably the larger faction, at least in some states. The other group are the feckless cowards who will happily see the US (and potentially the rest of us) burn as long as they continue to gain advantage personally because they dare not criticise Trump for fear of being primary'd out of the party and losing their seat and therefore influence.

I don't think there is much else left beyond those two groups. Romney was probably the last high profile "classical" Republican who would be fairly recognisable in any era of the Republican party of the last few decades but even he seems to have finally had enough and is standing down at the next election. But beyond him I don't think that there are many people left who are still what you would recognise as a Republican.
Mitch McConnell being the prime example of this, despite increasingly obvious signs he's no longer fit to hold public office (he's frozen up at least twice in front of reporters in the last 2 months). I would feel some sympathy for him, but given the damage he has done to the US both before and in the era of Trumpism by stalling, delaying and letting bills/motions/confirmations etc. die on his desk without even bringing them to a vote on the House floor, I - and many, many others State-side - can't muster any. I'm not denying that's cold and cruel, but that has been McConnell's modus operandi for his entire political career. Not that he cares, he's set for when he finally does retire (that is if he doesn't end up dying in office).

A combination of fear of the Trump and his cult base and good old-fashioned greed and thirst for power and influence means they've sold their souls and whatever there was of their political integrity (if they even had any to begin with) - and the rest of us a one way ticket to oblivion - to suck up to and appease the Cheeto-Dusted One so he won't strip them of the power and influence they've grown oh-so accustomed to.
 

Purple Train

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Business as usual...


Donald Trump committed fraud by repeatedly misrepresenting his wealth by hundreds of millions of dollars, a New York judge has ruled.

The ruling, part of a civil case brought against the former president and his family business, said he defrauded banks and insurers for years.

It is a major blow to Mr Trump that will likely hamper his ability to do business in the state.

It will also make it easier for prosecutors to establish damages.

Mr Trump and the other defendants have argued that they never committed fraud.

New York Attorney General Letitia James sued Mr Trump last September, accusing him, his two adult sons and the Trump Organization of inflating the value of their properties by more than $2bn (£1.65bn) to suit the needs of their business.

Judge Arthur Engoron said:
"The documents here clearly contain fraudulent valuations that defendants used in business."

"That is a fantasy world, not the real world."

"Mr Trump:

Overvalued Mar-a-Lago by 2,300% in one financial statement
Overvalued his penthouse at Trump Tower in New York by claiming that it was three times its actual size
"Absurdly" argued that calculating the area of the penthouse was subjective, ruling "a discrepancy of this order of magnitude, by a real estate developer sizing up his own living space of decades, can only be considered fraud."
Judge Engoron also ordered the cancellation of business certificates that allow some of the former president's businesses, including the Trump Organization, to operate in New York.

That will not dissolve his company, but could end his control over signature New York properties like the Trump Tower and the Trump Building at 40 Wall Street.

The judge denied the Trump team's request to throw out the case, and separately fined five Trump attorneys $7,500 each for making "preposterous" arguments already rejected by the court and fuelling what he called their clients' "obstreperous" conduct.

Oh, and Trump and his lawyers have claimed it's a you-know-what. Colour me surprised.
 

Peter Sarf

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Business as usual...







Oh, and Trump and his lawyers have claimed it's a you-know-what. Colour me surprised.
I am looking forward to Trump getting nailed for his behaviour before he ever became president or at least on issues that were nothing to do with his presidency. That way he cannot argue it is anything to do with a political witch hunt.
 

Gloster

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I am looking forward to Trump getting nailed for his behaviour before he ever became president or at least on issues that were nothing to do with his presidency. That way he cannot argue it is anything to do with a political witch hunt.

…but he will.
 

nlogax

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Top quality woe-is-me waffle from Trump inside the lower Manhattan courthouse where he's defending his role in the long-awaited civil fraud suit. He's an absolute child and I look forward him being rendered company-less within the space of a few weeks. There's a really good live story on the NY Times about his initial appearance.

Trump Civil Fraud TrialTrump’s Trial in New York Fraud Case Begins​

The former president is accused in a lawsuit of inflating his net worth to win favorable terms on loans. The trial is scheduled to last until the end of December but is expected to end sooner.


Edit: and the popcorn eating continues. Someone in Trump's legal team forgot to check the box saying 'We'd really like a jury trial kthx'. Thus the outcome of this trial will be solely determined by Judge Arthur Engoron whom Trump has been chucking mud at for days, both verbally and online. This will go well.
 
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MasterSpenny

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Spy dossier evidence is to be given in London
Donald Trump to give evidence in London over spy dossier


The former US president is suing Christopher Steele’s Orbis intelligence consultancy over bribery and sexual conduct allegations in Russia
Donald Trump is preparing to give evidence at the High Court in London to deny hiring prostitutes, holding sex parties and bribing Russian officials.


The former president of the United States is using data protection laws to sue a London-based intelligence consultancy founded by a former MI6 agent who produced a dossier of alleged Russian interference in the 2016 election.


Hugh Tomlinson KC, Trump’s lawyer, told the court that his client “brings this case because he seeks vindication of his legal rights”.


Trump wants to prove that the “shocking and scandalous claims about [his] personal conduct” are false and “intends to discharge that burden by giving evidence in this court”, he added.


Christopher Steele, 59, who ran the Secret Intelligence Service’s Russia desk before co-founding Orbis Business Intelligence, was in court for the preliminary hearing.


Trump, 77, claims Steele’s dossier included a string of inaccurate information that breaches data protection laws. The former president says he “did not engage in perverted sexual behaviour in Russia and did not hire prostitutes” in the presidential suite of a Moscow hotel.


He denies having taken “any steps to defile the bed in which President and Mrs Obama had slept” or “engage in unorthodox behaviour in Russia” which could be used by the Moscow authorities to blackmail him.
Trump also says he did not pay bribes to Russian officials to further his business interests, take part in “sex parties” when in St Petersburg or bribe or coerce witnesses to his impropriety.


The former president has said it was “extremely distressing” having felt “compelled to explain to his family, friends and colleagues that the embarrassing allegations about his private life were untrue”. He claims Orbis has broken data protection laws by processing “false, intrusive and damaging allegations” about his personal life.


Tomlinson told Mrs Justice Steyn: “It is uncontroversial to say that President Trump is a controversial figure.” He said legal action was the only way Trump could bring the case and clear his name, and he is preparing to give evidence in court.


Although the former president “often expresses himself in strong language in social media . . . and has been subjected to strong criticism by judges in the US”, it “does not mean he is not entitled to enforce his rights in the court”, Tomlinson added.


He said the “now-notorious Steele dossier received worldwide publicity” after it was leaked to the Buzzfeed website in January 2017. He says Orbis broke data protection laws, as the information in the dossier “was not processed fairly or lawfully and was inaccurate”.


Tomlinson applied yesterday to amend the claim to remove Steele as a defendant and to add a breach of data protection law at the time the dossier was produced, a law that was replaced in 2018.


Tomlinson is one of Britain’s highest-profile media and information lawyers. His celebrity clients have included the King, Rebekah Vardy, David and Victoria Beckham, Jude Law and Roman Abramovich.


Steele argues that Trump’s claim is a legal “abuse of the process” as the former president is “motivated by personal animus”, the court was told. Trump’s claim against Steele in Florida was dismissed last year on the basis that it was the wrong jurisdiction.


The court was told that Trump accepts Orbis is not responsible in law for the publication by Buzzfeed. The reputational damage claim is confined to Steele’s sending of the dossier to Strobe Talbott, a former US deputy secretary of state; an unidentified UK national security official; and David Kramer, an aide to Senator John McCain, who was at the time chairman of the US Senate’s armed services committee and a member of the Senate committee on intelligence.


Antony White KC, defending Orbis, asked the judge to strike out Trump’s claim as an abuse of the legal process. He said the case in Florida last year was dismissed after a court ruled it was a “meritless, vexatious and politically motivated abuse of the court process”.


White said there has been an “exceptional and unexplained” delay in bringing the claim in London and the president has an “ extensive track record of using legal proceedings to harass, bully and intimidate his perceived opponents”.


The hearing continues.


Orbis was hired in 2016 by Fusion GPS, a Washington-based intelligence consultancy, to investigate alleged links between the man who was then the frontrunner to become the Republican presidential candidate, the authorities in Russia and President Putin. Fusion was instructed by a US law firm, Perkins Coie, which in turn was allegedly acting on instructions from the top of the Democratic Party.


Steele and Orbis Business Intelligence were previously sued in London for libel by the Russian national Aleksej Gubarev over the publication of the dossier, claiming they were legally responsible for BuzzFeed publishing the dossier. The claim was dismissed.


Petr Aven and Mikhail Fridman, who were among the owners of the Alfa Group investment conglomerate, have been awarded £18,000 compensation for a breach of data protection law after a judge ruled the information about them in the dossier was inaccurate.


Trump and his family business are currently facing a lawsuit from the New York attorney general’s office over allegations that he inflated his net worth by billions of dollars to secure better loan and insurance terms.


The former president is also facing four separate sets of criminal charges, including allegations that he conspired to defraud the US by preventing Congress from certifying Joe Biden’s 2020 election victory over him.
 

brad465

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Sidney Powell has pleaded guilty in the Georgia election interference case. The plea deal includes having to testify against the other defendants, which could spell more trouble for Trump:


Former Donald Trump lawyer Sidney Powell has pleaded guilty to six charges in the Georgia election interference case.
Powell, who pushed false claims about the 2020 election results, reached a deal with prosecutors and will now testify at the trial.
There are 18 co-defendants, including the former president, in the case.
She faced charges of conspiracy to commit intentional interference of election duties.
The deal also requires her to write an apology letter to Georgia citizens.
She has been sentenced to six years of probation and must pay a fine and testify at future trials.

Powell entered her guilty plea in a downtown Atlanta courtroom on Thursday, a day before her trial was set to start.
Prosecutors have accused her of being among a group of Trump officials and supporters who breached the elections system in rural Coffee County, Georgia, in January 2021, with the goal of proving that the election was rigged against Mr Trump.
Mr Trump has pleaded not guilty in his Georgia election fraud case. In total, Mr Trump faces 13 felony counts - including racketeering - for allegedly pressuring Georgia officials to reverse the results of the 2020 presidential election in that state.
He has repeatedly denied any wrongdoing, and has described the case as being politically motivated.
Powell is the second person among the defendants to plead guilty in the Georgia election interference case.
Bail bondsman Scott Hall struck a plea deal with prosecutors in late September.
The former Republican poll watcher is also accused of trying to gain access to sensitive election equipment in Coffee County, Georgia.
As part of the plea deal, he was sentenced to five years probation. He is also required to testify against others in future trials.
 

brad465

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AM9

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It is really, really quite strange. Despite being a terrible person in so many ways, they're treating him as the Messiah.
But his most fanatic supporters don't seem to be the sharpest knives in the drawer, so their adulation is not exactly a sign of a genuine messiah.
 

brad465

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Judge threatens Trump with jail, and in turn threatens me with a good time:


A New York judge has fined Donald Trump for violating a gag order in his civil fraud trial.
Mr Trump was fined $5,000 (£4,100) by Judge Arthur Engoron on Friday.
The judge said in court that the former president had failed to remove an online post mocking a clerk at the court.
He also threatened Mr Trump with jail time, and demanded he take down the "untrue and disparaging" post made about the clerk earlier this month.
Judge Engoron said the post was deleted on social media, but remained on his website.
"Incendiary untruths can and have led to serious physical harm," Judge Engoron said in court on Friday.
"I will now allow the defendant to explain why this should not end up with serious sanctions or I could possibly imprison him."
Mr Trump's lawyer, Christopher Kise, apologised on his client's behalf and said it was an "inadvertent" mistake because while the post was deleted from social media, aides forgot to remove it from the campaign website.
Later in the day, Judge Engoron ruled that Mr Trump pay a fine given that "the violation was inadvertent, and given that it is a first time violation".
"Make no mistake: future violations, whether intentional or unintentional, will subject the violator to far more severe sanctions, which may include, but are not limited to, steeper financial penalties, holding Donald Trump in contempt of court, and possibly imprisoning him," Judge Engoron said in his ruling.
Mr Trump and several of his family members are on trial for fraud, falsification of business records, issuing false financial statements and conspiracy.
 

Strathclyder

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But his most fanatic supporters don't seem to be the sharpest knives in the drawer, so their adulation is not exactly a sign of a genuine messiah.
They're the ones most likely to be taken in and completely bamboozled by someone like Trump, not to mention milked for all they're worth financially.

Judge threatens Trump with jail, and in turn threatens me with a good time:

Threatening us with peace and quiet more like. Anything to shut him the fudge up for more than 5 minutes would be a gift from the heavens at this point.

I gotta address this though:
Mr Trump's lawyer, Christopher Kise, apologised on his client's behalf and said it was an "inadvertent" mistake because while the post was deleted from social media, aides forgot to remove it from the campaign website.
That's a crock of hooey (other swear words apply). It's pretty obvious what Trump is doing here and it's what he's done his entire adult life: testing the waters, trying to find out where that line is, leaving just enough plausible deniabilty so when it all does properly hit the fan, he can throw someone else under the bus so he can keep his cheeto-dusted hide out of jail just that little bit longer. It's his only genuine skill (and I feel dirty saying it). Here's hoping it blows up in his face this time.
 

dgl

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The problem Trump has now is that his mates are only his mates until they start getting in trouble for his actions, and he hasn't realised that when they do start getting in trouble they'll squeal like a pig to help their case.
Also as they want to nail the orange one they are happy to give out deals which his co-conspirators seem to be accepting.
He's been trying to throw people under the bus for years but now it's everyone else throwing him under.
 

jon0844

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He knows they'll do that, as they have always done it, but he thinks he can just continue to blame them/pretend he doesn't know them, and find new people to cover for him.

I think at this point, his ability to control things is reducing day by day, hour by hour. He will find it harder to find people willing to sell their soul to lie for him. When the money was coming in thick and fast I expect some people were willing to play along, but now the funds are drying up and while the MAGA following still seems strong - I doubt it is what it once was.
 

najaB

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while the MAGA following still seems strong - I doubt it is what it once was
Correct on both points. Yes, MAGA is still strong. But where MAGA started out as a synonym for Trumpism, it's starting to move on from him and has new stars like Marjorie Traitor Taylor Green and Matt Gaetz and is more about being loud and objectionable than actively effecting change. Just look at the current paralysis in the US House of Representatives - triggered by Gaetz and prolonged by the fact that the MAGA crowd can't get on with anyone else.

What's been most amazing about the speaker election process is that some in the GOP are blaming the Democrats!
 

Peter Sarf

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They're the ones most likely to be taken in and completely bamboozled by someone like Trump, not to mention milked for all they're worth financially.


Threatening us with peace and quiet more like. Anything to shut him the fudge up for more than 5 minutes would be a gift from the heavens at this point.

I gotta address this though:

That's a crock of hooey (other swear words apply). It's pretty obvious what Trump is doing here and it's what he's done his entire adult life: testing the waters, trying to find out where that line is, leaving just enough plausible deniabilty so when it all does properly hit the fan, he can throw someone else under the bus so he can keep his cheeto-dusted hide out of jail just that little bit longer. It's his only genuine skill (and I feel dirty saying it). Here's hoping it blows up in his face this time.
By pushing things to the limit the orange one was always going to come unstuck eventually. Thankfully the US still has a democracy to see past his dictator like traits.
Correct on both points. Yes, MAGA is still strong. But where MAGA started out as a synonym for Trumpism, it's starting to move on from him and has new stars like Marjorie Traitor Taylor Green and Matt Gaetz and is more about being loud and objectionable than actively effecting change. Just look at the current paralysis in the US House of Representatives - triggered by Gaetz and prolonged by the fact that the MAGA crowd can't get on with anyone else.

What's been most amazing about the speaker election process is that some in the GOP are blaming the Democrats!
My bold - classic trait "its not me its the rest of the world". Coming home to roost at last but would work for a lot longer in a dictatorship.
 

JamesT

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Though if the Democrats wanted there to be a Speaker, they just need to find someone acceptable to half a dozen Republicans and there’s a majority.
 

najaB

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Though if the Democrats wanted there to be a Speaker, they just need to find someone acceptable to half a dozen Republicans and there’s a majority.
It's not the job of the minority party to fill the Speaker's seat after the majority party vacated it. That said, they have made some suggestions but have been rebuked.
 

Purple Train

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The BBC's live feed is providing entertainment which could I think only be rivalled by actually watching the trial. (Trump is giving evidence.) Here are the gems so far.

(All quotes taken from https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-67314495)
“You and about every other Democrat district attorney... US attorneys etc were coming after me from 15 different sides. All democrats, all Trump haters, all cases that are not good, inappropriate and not good. Weaponisation, they call it.”
And people call Biden incoherent...
New York Judge Arthur Engoron has just asked Trump to stop giving speeches at the stand.

"Please, just answer the questions, no speeches. Some of your answers have not been responsive to the questions," he says.
Funny, that reminds me of someone else, can't think who...
"We’ll explore this as this trial goes along... this crazy trial goes along," Trump says.
"Help, I've forgotten to include an aggressive adjective for my support base, let me rephrase!"
He tells the court: "I’m sure the judge will rule against me because he always rules against me".
There may be a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why he always rules against you, sunshine. Maybe go back to your cot and think about it for a little bit. No, I won't give you a cookie if you do. Or a small loan of a million pounds.
He has just asked Trump's attorneys: "Can you control your client?"
:lol:

It's quite interesting to see how it's been obvious he's such a childish, self-centred individual for years, but now he's up before the beak, he seems even more puerile than usual. Another reason (as if we needed one) to wonder why on earth the American electorate elected him.
 
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