Railway History in the Helensburgh Area

[Cheshire Scot]

920001 was at Hyndland from 17-03-1976 to 28-08-1976. (Source: BloodandCustard website.)

Faslane, then Military Port No.1 only dated from World War II, while Glen Douglas only appeared in the 1960s. As far as the turntable is concerned, perhaps the authorities in World War I were intending to (or did) bring in mines for the North Sea Mine Barrage via Fort William or Mallaig (they did use Kyle of Lochalsh), although I do not know.

I suspect the turntable and associated extensive sidings all dated from the opening of the Faslane branch during WW2, which is when the sidings at Ardmore were also put in to recess Faslane traffic. There must have been a large volume of traffic recessed pending acceptance into Faslane - or at least an anticipation of a need for - whilst not forgetting the sidings at Faslane itself were very extensive.
I would speculate that having brought traffic into Ardmore or Craigendoran the loco would then be turned before heading back, perhaps with return wagons from Faslane.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Aha, another Hermitage former pupil of a similar era as @D6130 130 and @McRhu and myself, perhaps a year or three behind us. Myself and @McRhu left in '74 and @D6130 moved south in I think 1972 or '73.

I was a pupil there from '74 until '79 so no doubt we shared some of the same teachers even if we did not overlap. At that time, I lived in Rosneath so my only regular access to the railway was at lunch-time although very occasionally I would cycle to Garelochhead on Saturdays.

I think my first sighting of 920001 at Craigendoran was on 25/05/76 although it may have been before then and I have lost the record. The last was 11/05/77. In 1977 I saw it almost every day from 11/01/77 until 23/03/77 and then only sporadically after that, so it was definitely back at Hyndland in 1977.

The only other odd working I saw in those lunch time visits was 25244 heading in to Helensburgh Central with a short freight on 04/06/76. It was the only time I saw a loco work towards Central.

The siding at Craigendoran Junction that survived in to the 1970s, which was adjacent to the loop, had some chairs inscribed North British Railway which is probably what led me to think that the complex had dated from WW1. Thinking about it now, it is more than likely that track had been reused from elsewhere when the facility was constructed. I had not realised that Glen Douglas was so recent, although I do recall that there were some school boy stories about what went on up there, and the links to Coulport, although those stories were probably more applicable to a James Bond movie than fact.

 

[Gloster]

I was a pupil there from '74 until '79 so no doubt we shared some of the same teachers even if we did not overlap. At that time, I lived in Rosneath so my only regular access to the railway was at lunch-time although very occasionally I would cycle to Garelochhead on Saturdays.

I think my first sighting of 920001 at Craigendoran was on 25/05/76 although it may have been before then and I have lost the record. The last was 11/05/77. In 1977 I saw it almost every day from 11/01/77 until 23/03/77 and then only sporadically after that, so it was definitely back at Hyndland in 1977.

The only other odd working I saw in those lunch time visits was 25244 heading in to Helensburgh Central with a short freight on 04/06/76. It was the only time I saw a loco work towards Central.

The siding at Craigendoran Junction that survived in to the 1970s, which was adjacent to the loop, had some chairs inscribed North British Railway which is probably what led me to think that the complex had dated from WW1. Thinking about it now, it is more than likely that track had been reused from elsewhere when the facility was constructed. I had not realised that Glen Douglas was so recent, although I do recall that there were some school boy stories about what went on up there, and the links to Coulport, although those stories were probably more applicable to a James Bond movie than fact.

I have just checked and the unit was in the Glasgow area, although based in Derby in the autumn of 1977.

 

[D6130]

It's surprising there was any use made of Helensburgh Upper station, with its handful of services per day, probably not too punctual in the Up direction, compared to the regular electric service from the main station down the hill.

Helensburgh Upper is situated in the most affluent area of this most affluent town but - prior to the replacement of loco-hauled trains by Sprinters in the late 1980s - the first Up departure wasn't until 10 33 (07 55 or 08 00 from Oban)....so not much use for commuting to Glasgow. As a result, many of the doctors, lawyers, architects, business magnates and other professionals who inhabited the large detached villas surrounding the Upper station would walk down the hill to Helensburgh Central in the morning to catch one of the 'express' electric trains (08 10 and 08 29 approximately) into Glasgow, before returning in the evening either on the 16 35 Mallaig or 18 35 Oban services....thus avoiding the long slog up Sinclair Street to their less-than-humble abodes. After 'Sprinterisation' an early morning Garelochhead-Queen Street commuter service was provided, which - after a few years - was extended back to start from Arrochar & Tarbet....and finally Oban, as at present.

ps. It's my understanding that the boundary twixt highlands and lowlands was actually quite close to Helensburgh Upper, being demarcated by Whistler's Glen that the WHL crosses at Rhu.

The actual geophysical Highland boundary fault - which every Scottish school pupil was told runs from 'Helensburgh to Stonehaven' - makes landfall on the North bank of the Clyde at Ardmore Point and then runs in a North-Easterly direction through Ben Bouie, the islands of Inchmurrin and Inchcailloch in Loch Lomond and Conic Hill above Balmaha, before winging its way in a more-or-less straight line towards the North Sea coast. I believe that Whistlers' Glen was formed by a minor subsiduary fault which is a continuation of the gap in the hills of the peninsular between Rosneath and Kilcreggan. However, as always, I am open to correction!

Various sources say Helensburgh Upper signal box closed and the loop put out of use on 21 July 1968.

I have in my posession the final signalbox train register from Helensburgh Upper and if the information in it is correct, the last day of operation was 11th June 1968. I would dearly like to locate it and post some of its pages on here but, unfortunately, since my last house move just over ten years ago, it's been hiding away in a box somewhere in the attic.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

whilst not forgetting the sidings at Faslane itself were very extensive.

The above mentioned 'The Vanished Railways of Old Western Dunbartonshire' notes at the endo of the war there were 26 miles of track within the Faslane Port!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2023 ==

I have in my posession the final signalbox train register from Helensburgh Upper and if the information in it is correct, the last day of operation was 11th June 1968. I would dearly like to locate it and post some of its pages on here but, unfortunately, since my last house move just over ten years ago, it's been hiding away in a box somewhere in the attic.

Keep looking, I would love to see it!

 

[D6130]

The above mentioned 'The Vanished Railways of Old Western Dunbartonshire' notes at the endo of the war there were 26 miles of track within the Faslane Port!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2023 ==


Keep looking, I would love to see it!

Me too, but I suspect that SWMBO would dearly love to see the back of it....suprisingly for a retired librarian and archivist!

 

[McRhu]

As regards the Faslane Branch - it was built in a way that simulated continental operation, but did this extend to the signalling on the branch? As I mentioned earlier I can clearly remember classic and distinctly non-continental distant signals in situ. Or is continental signalling similar enough for it not to matter (or did the distant signals only date from the singling of the line)? So many questions...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2023 ==

Another question just for fun... Name the steam loco which could be regularly seen at Helensburgh Central right up until its final departure in the early 1990s.

 

[Railsigns]

As regards the Faslane Branch - it was built in a way that simulated continental operation, but did this extend to the signalling on the branch? As I mentioned earlier I can clearly remember classic and distinctly non-continental distant signals in situ. Or is continental signalling similar enough for it not to matter (or did the distant signals only date from the singling of the line)? So many questions...

The signals on the Faslane Branch were ordinary British semaphores. Right-hand running applied from the opening of the line in 1941 until its singling in 1946 to mimic conditions on the continent, which meant that the signal arms generally pointed towards the track.

I photographed one of the signals that was still in situ in 1996, long after the branch had closed, although the track had not long been lifted. The arm is on a wooden post, which is set into a large concrete block.

The photo below shows the Down Distant signal for Shandon level crossing. The distant signals were fixed at caution when the line was singled, but were originally worked.

 

[McRhu]

The signals on the Faslane Branch were ordinary British semaphores. Right-hand running applied from the opening of the line in 1941 until its singling in 1946 to mimic conditions on the continent, which meant that the signal arms generally pointed towards the track.

I photographed one of the signals that was still in situ in 1996, long after the branch had closed, although the track had not long been lifted. The arm is on a wooden post, which is set into a large concrete block.

The photo below shows the Down Distant signal for Shandon level crossing. The distant signals were fixed at caution when the line was singled, but were originally worked.

Excellent. Thank you. I suppose in later years (ie 60s, 70s and into the 80s) there would only ever be one loco on the branch at a time anyway, servicing Shipbreaking Industries?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The signals on the Faslane Branch were ordinary British semaphores. Right-hand running applied from the opening of the line in 1941 until its singling in 1946 to mimic conditions on the continent, which meant that the signal arms generally pointed towards the track.

I photographed one of the signals that was still in situ in 1996, long after the branch had closed, although the track had not long been lifted. The arm is on a wooden post, which is set into a large concrete block.

The photo below shows the Down Distant signal for Shandon level crossing. The distant signals were fixed at caution when the line was singled, but were originally worked.

I recall the down signal protecting the A814 level crossing was situated on the right hand side of the double track.

Excellent. Thank you. I suppose in later years (ie 60s, 70s and into the 80s) there would only ever be one loco on the branch at a time anyway, servicing Shipbreaking Industries?

I imagine by then the branch would have been one train working, whether with or without train staff. Potentially there might have been a Train Staff in the hut which contained the Token Instrument at Faslane Junction.

 

[Railsigns]

I suppose in later years (ie 60s, 70s and into the 80s) there would only ever be one loco on the branch at a time anyway, servicing Shipbreaking Industries?

The 1960 sectional appendix says the branch is worked by One Engine in Steam, with train staff. The train staff was kept in the key token hut at the ground frame (it was presumably kept in Faslane Junction signal box before it closed in 1953).

 

[McRhu]

I recall the down signal protecting the A814 level crossing was situated on the right hand side of the double track.


I imagine by then the branch would have been one train working, whether with or without train staff. Potentially there might have been a Train Staff in the hut which contained the Token Instrument at Faslane Junction.

The 1960 sectional appendix says the branch is worked by One Engine in Steam, with train staff. The train staff was kept in the key token hut at the ground frame (it was presumably kept in Faslane Junction signal box before it closed in 1953).

Thanks gentlemen. A truly fascinating line that I miss to this day. What a great opportunity lost for a commuter service to HMNB Clyde (do they still call it HMS Neptune?) and extending to Garelochhead. Once again a site that I wish I'd photo'd more while it was there.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

More info on the Yards at Craigendoran (East and West) and Ardmore and their association with the Fasland branch on:

https://www.railscot.co.uk/companies/M/Military_Port_Number_1_Railway/

 

[McRhu]

Surprised the these yards weren't bombed (or were they?). I daresay a certain amount of duplication was built in to allow for enemy action. The track on the Faslane branch and yards was light flatbottom spiked through sole plates onto the sleepers, and joints were staggered: no attempt to line them up. Trackbed was what looked like ash. I daresay it would have been relatively easy to patch up quickly. In later years the quality of the track on the branch led to a Class 20 taking a nosedive off one of the two bridges into a rocky gully.

 

[Gloster]

Bombing wasn’t that accurate: if you are going to fly all that way, you might as well dump your bombs on an area with lots of industry, etc. in the hope that you will hit something. Trying to aim for a small target out in the backwoods is most likely going to be a waste of effort. A saturation raid might do some damage, but odd bombers only increase the risk to themselves with little chance of causing damage.

 

[Taunton]

I've an account in an old train magazine that when the Blue Trains were introduced at the end of 1960, the old steam stock was stored on those sidings at Craigendoran, it was still there when just a few weeks later the electric operations were abandoned, the old locos and stock resuscitated, and the new Blue Trains were then parked at Craigendoran, among other points, instead.

 

[McRhu]

Bombing wasn’t that accurate: if you are going to fly all that way, you might as well dump your bombs on an area with lots of industry, etc. in the hope that you will hit something. Trying to aim for a small target out in the backwoods is most likely going to be a waste of effort. A saturation raid might do some damage, but odd bombers only increase the risk to themselves with little chance of causing damage.

Strangely enough there is what's purported to be a bomb crater (it certainly looked like one) very close to the Rhu reservoirs, not far from Faslane. (Rhu not being noted for its industry or strategic importance at that time.) I take it a this would have been an opportunistic shot by a bomber dropping its remaining load either after an attack on Faslane Base or Clydebank. Both of these were major targets of course.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==

I've an account in an old train magazine that when the Blue Trains were introduced at the end of 1960, the old steam stock was stored on those sidings at Craigendoran, it was still there when just a few weeks later the electric operations were abandoned, the old locos and stock resuscitated, and the new Blue Trains were then parked at Craigendoran, among other points, instead.

To put that into context, the 'Blue Trains' (especially attractive and modern units in handsome lined Caley Blue livery with white roofs) were launched with great fanfare and their own 40-page George Blake publicity booklet (Cover by Terence Cuneo), so it must have been something of a disaster when they were withdrawn again almost immediately. A new blue and yellow chevron logotype had been invented to promote the service (see bottom left of booklet cover) and this was displayed at stations on the electric network on tall metal poles; quite a few surviving for many years after. Incidentally, this booklet has a photo taken at Craigendoran in which some of the sidings are visible.

 

[matchmaker]

Craigendoran was resignalled in 1960, having formerly had two signal boxes. Craigendoran East was closed and Craigendoran Junction renamed Craigendoran. The WHL was a double junction, the single line starting after the Upper station. Next down the line from the junction came Ardmore which had extensive Admiralty sidings. From what I remember of both Ardmore East and West they were both ARP type boxes - bombproof.

As regards the Faslane Branch - it was built in a way that simulated continental operation, but did this extend to the signalling on the branch? As I mentioned earlier I can clearly remember classic and distinctly non-continental distant signals in situ. Or is continental signalling similar enough for it not to matter (or did the distant signals only date from the singling of the line)? So many questions...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2023 ==

Another question just for fun... Name the steam loco which could be regularly seen at Helensburgh Central right up until its final departure in the early 1990s.

Bantam Cock - a lovely model of an LNER V4!

 

[McRhu]

Craigendoran was resignalled in 1960, having formerly had two signal boxes. Craigendoran East was closed and Craigendoran Junction renamed Craigendoran. The WHL was a double junction, the single line starting after the Upper station. Next down the line from the junction came Ardmore which had extensive Admiralty sidings. From what I remember of both Ardmore East and West they were both ARP type boxes - bombproof.

Bantam Cock - a lovely model of an LNER V4!

Thanks for that. I remember the WHL being double track at Craigendoran Junction (as was the electrified line) up until at least 1974, which is the last time I was there.

Yes it was Bantam Cock which disappeared one night never to be seen again. It was indeed a lovely model.

 

[Railsigns]

I remember the WHL being double track at Craigendoran Junction (as was the electrified line) up until at least 1974, which is the last time I was there.

It was double until 1984, when the layout was simplified and resignalled, and the line to Helensburgh Central was also singled.

A diagram of the layout as it was in 1960:

 

[McRhu]

It was double until 1984, when the layout was simplified and resignalled, and the line to Helensburgh Central was also singled.

A diagram of the layout as it was in 1960:

Fantastic, thank you. That's the first time I'd noticed there were sidings to the west of Craigendoran station on the Helensburgh Central line.

 

[RUFJAN15]

That’s true. There were problems with the mercury arc rectifiers amongst other things. Up until the early 70s there were multiple sidings beside the running lines to the east of Craigendoran Junction. Beyond that, further east there was the remains of a large turntable and further, by then, dismantled sidings. Craigendoran was the Clapham Junction of its day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2023 ==

Although there were problems with the mercury arc rectifiers, I understand the reason for temporary withdrawal of the 303's was a series of spectacular transformer failures. Although the rectifiers were involved in setting up the electrical conditions that damaged the transformers, the transformer design was inadequate and they all had to be rebuilt.

The Railways Archive site has a copy of the Ministry of Transport accident report, which also discusses problems with other early AC traction fleets. The report can be found at: https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_EMUFailures1962.pdf

There are some photographs of the Glasgow failures at: https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BC-AM3GlasgowBlueTrains.html

 

[Cheshire Scot]

o put that into context, the 'Blue Trains' (especially attractive and modern units in handsome lined Caley Blue livery with white roofs) were launched with great fanfare and their own 40-page George Blake publicity booklet (Cover by Terence Cuneo), so it must have been something of a disaster when they were withdrawn again almost immediately. A new blue and yellow chevron logotype had been invented to promote the service (see bottom left of booklet cover) and this was displayed at stations on the electric network on tall metal poles; quite a few surviving for many years after. Incidentally, this booklet has a photo taken at Craigendoran in which some of the sidings are visible.

For general info, the Cuneo cover picture (I have a copy on the wall at home) is Bowling. Perhaps @McRhu could post the photo of Craigendoran which has some sidings visible.

 

[McRhu]

For general info, the Cuneo cover picture (I have a copy on the wall at home) is Bowling. Perhaps @McRhu could post the photo of Craigendoran which has some sidings visible.

Here it is. Sidings to the left in the image. Note the wooden platform running the length of the sidings. In the days when I could run like a hare I made good my escape down this, having entered a parked track machine for a look in the mistaken belief that the crew had knocked off for the afternoon. Also note that the OLE isn't really supported by a telegraph pole, despite appearances in the photo.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==

Although there were problems with the mercury arc rectifiers, I understand the reason for temporary withdrawal of the 303's was a series of spectacular transformer failures. Although the rectifiers were involved in setting up the electrical conditions that damaged the transformers, the transformer design was inadequate and they all had to be rebuilt.

The Railways Archive site has a copy of the Ministry of Transport accident report, which also discusses problems with other early AC traction fleets. The report can be found at: https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_EMUFailures1962.pdf

There are some photographs of the Glasgow failures at: https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BC-AM3GlasgowBlueTrains.html

Many thanks for that. Yes - I remember the transformer failures but that's the first photos I've seen of the damage. Very interesting information in those links too - they really knew how to write reports in those days.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Here it is. Sidings to the left in the image. Note the wooden platform running the length of the sidings. In the days when I could run like a hare I made good my escape down this, having entered a parked track machine for a look in the mistaken belief that the crew had knocked off for the afternoon. Also note that the OLE isn't really supported by a telegraph pole, despite appearances in the photo.

thanks for that, happy menories!

 

[Siemens Staines]

Here it is. Sidings to the left in the image. Note the wooden platform running the length of the sidings. In the days when I could run like a hare I made good my escape down this, having entered a parked track machine for a look in the mistaken belief that the crew had knocked off for the afternoon. Also note that the OLE isn't really supported by a telegraph pole, despite appearances in the photo.

This photo brings back so many memories for me. There was also a wooden structure on the sea side of the wall, near to the signal, which you could get at by clambering along a very narrow ledge along the side of the wall. This was quite a dangerous access and not at all recommended, but I spent many happy hours sat there. I was always hoping that the loco on the 06xx Mallaig / 08xx Fort William - Queen St would be a different one from the day before, but the majority of the time it would be the same one. This was long before I understood the concept of loco diagrams, but it must have been an out & back diagram from Fort William that laid over in Queen St for a few hours before, although I never saw the train, presumably returning with the 16xx Queen St - Fort William. 27044 worked it for at least 15 days in June 1976 and my observations only stopped because it was the end of the academic year. Even on the occasions when a Class 25 got on the diagram it tended to stick for several days before being swapped out.

 

[WesternLancer]

Here it is. Sidings to the left in the image. Note the wooden platform running the length of the sidings. In the days when I could run like a hare I made good my escape down this, having entered a parked track machine for a look in the mistaken belief that the crew had knocked off for the afternoon. Also note that the OLE isn't really supported by a telegraph pole, despite appearances in the photo.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==


Many thanks for that. Yes - I remember the transformer failures but that's the first photos I've seen of the damage. Very interesting information in those links too - they really knew how to write reports in those days.

Wonderful picture to see. Seems to 'capture the moment' of modernisation just in the one image.

 

[McRhu]

This photo brings back so many memories for me. There was also a wooden structure on the sea side of the wall, near to the signal, which you could get at by clambering along a very narrow ledge along the side of the wall. This was quite a dangerous access and not at all recommended, but I spent many happy hours sat there. I was always hoping that the loco on the 06xx Mallaig / 08xx Fort William - Queen St would be a different one from the day before, but the majority of the time it would be the same one. This was long before I understood the concept of loco diagrams, but it must have been an out & back diagram from Fort William that laid over in Queen St for a few hours before, although I never saw the train, presumably returning with the 16xx Queen St - Fort William. 27044 worked it for at least 15 days in June 1976 and my observations only stopped because it was the end of the academic year. Even on the occasions when a Class 25 got on the diagram it tended to stick for several days before being swapped out.

Consensus is that the wooden structures were wave-breaks protecting the adjacent signal. I made my way along that ledge several times too, ruining my blazer and at least one anorak in the process. I remember my first sighting of a loco coming down the WHL at that spot was a class 20 still in its pre-TOPS number and green livery. There must have been 29s at that time too.

Wonderful picture to see. Seems to 'capture the moment' of modernisation just in the one image.

It is a lovely photo - that unit looks perfect in the original Caley-blue livery, white roof and the original wrap-around windows: optimism condensed into perfect design on a sparkling Fith of Clyde day. I should reiterate that the picture is from a BR publicity booklet of the time which is actually very good. Definitely worth the 3/6d

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2023 ==

Looking at the 25 inch 1892-1914 map of Helensburgh there is a short branch off the West Highland Line into a works just north of Havelock Street, near Kirkmichael. Does anyone know what this was?

 

[Gloster]

Looking at the 25 inch 1892-1914 map of Helensburgh there is a short branch off the West Highland Line into a works just north of Havelock Street, near Kirkmichael. Does anyone know what this was?

If that is the one just to the north of the curling pond, I wonder if it is a railway or contractors depot. Most of the buildings seem to have tracks running into them, so there would not be much space for manufacturing things. Perhaps if was a leftover from the construction of the West Highland, as it was there in the 1897 survey, but gone by the 1914 one.

 

[McRhu]

If that is the one just to the north of the curling pond, I wonder if it is a railway or contractors depot. Most of the buildings seem to have tracks running into them, so there would not be much space for manufacturing things. Perhaps if was a leftover from the construction of the West Highland, as it was there in the 1897 survey, but gone by the 1914 one.

That's a good idea: sounds very feasible. Hadn't thought of that.