Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Deepgreen]

What was the second unit please?

Sorry, didn't turn round as I only took a quick shot and didn't realise it was two fives until reviewing the photos.

 

[Towers]

These trains weren't designed to have a guard on board nevermind closing the doors, but I guess trap and drag tests proving unsuitable cameras has forced the companies hand...

If they “weren’t designed to have a guard on board” that would, presumably, have been rather a significant failing, as surely nobody expected the current services to have been completely destaffed?

Method of working is changing and ASLEF / RMT have been in discussions with SWR. It has pretty much been confirmed as driver open guard close. With CD/RA being used at Waterloo and Reading.

Out of interest, why RA at Reading? It isn’t used on those platforms for GWR trains despite DOO-capable rolling stock, is it used for existing SWR services?

 

[cactustwirly]

If they “weren’t designed to have a guard on board” that would, presumably, have been rather a significant failing, as surely nobody expected the current services to have been completely destaffed?



Out of interest, why RA at Reading? It isn’t used on those platforms for GWR trains despite DOO-capable rolling stock, is it used for existing SWR services?

CD/RA is used on all the platforms at Reading I believe

 

[Towers]

CD/RA is used on all the platforms at Reading I believe

It most definitely isn’t!

DOO services of course are, as are all trains departing platforms 1/2/3; the rest of the station is traditional buzzer dispatch for guarded trains.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Out of interest, why RA at Reading? It isn’t used on those platforms for GWR trains despite DOO-capable rolling stock, is it used for existing SWR services?

Because Reading is mandatory dispatch - and the method of working for dispatching DOO trains at Reading is via CD/RA.

 

[john.aston.96]

701519/517

Realtime Trains | 5Q86 0632 Eastleigh Trsmd to Long Marston | 28/11/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q86 0632 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Long Marston on 28/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Towers]

Because Reading is mandatory dispatch - and the method of working for dispatching DOO trains at Reading is via CD/RA.

But the post in question was specifically made in the context that these will not be DOO trains!

Or indeed DCO; I don’t think DOO was ever on the cards for the 701s?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But the post in question was specifically made in the context that these will not be DOO trains!

Orindeed DCO; I don’t think DOO was ever on the cards for the 701s?

It most certainly was on the cards (and agreed!)

 

[Towers]

It most certainly was on the cards (and agreed!)

DOO - as in no guard on board whatsoever - rather than DCO (rules-competent guard on board not doing doors)?

It’s been such a long time anything might have been possible initially!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

DOO - as in no guard on board whatsoever - rather than DCO (rules-competent guard on board not doing doors)?

It’s been such a long time anything might have been possible initially!

DCO.

Also DCO doesn’t have to be a rules competent guard, Southern have DCO with OBS who don’t even have PTS.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I was at Hersham this morning for a steam working and snapped a quick shot of what I assumed was a single 701/0 on test/accumulation, but it was a pair of 701/5s. I haven't checked every post on this thread, but these were the first 701/5s I had seen moving. View attachment 147468

Fabulous autumnal colours and a great capture. I hope you were able to capture a shot of "Braunton" just as superb.

I've only seen "Braunton" once in action - on post #32 here:

Steam to South Hampshire

Hello - does any forum reader know more on B1 61306 "Mayflower" trip down to Portsmouth on 31st May? Realtime showed it aa Shoeburyness to Portsmouth, arriving Pompey just before noon; returning that eve. Here's it passing Havant on its return eastwards. I looked on Steam Dreams site but I...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[TEW]

Regarding method of operation, unless it’s changed in the last week or so, I’m led to believe it will be Driver open / Driver close however there will be various situations that degraded dispatch (guard dispatch) will be required. It’s the change to degraded dispatch that RMT are seeking clarification about.

It's also trying to work out what ASLEF have actually agreed and ensuring the guard's and driver's documents agree.

 

[43066]

DOO - as in no guard on board whatsoever - rather than DCO (rules-competent guard on board not doing doors)?

It’s been such a long time anything might have been possible initially!

Not to open the can of worms of discussing the virtues of different methods, but I understood they’d ended up at driver open guard close? That was from a colleague who is ex SWR but may well be superseded/out of date.

Does anyone know the current position regarding the method of working that will actually be used on these units when they enter service?

 

[DMckduck97]

Not to open the can of worms of discussing the virtues of different methods, but I understood they’d ended up at driver open guard close? That was from a colleague who is ex SWR but may well be superseded/out of date.

Does anyone know the current position regarding the method of working that will actually be used on these units when they enter service?

Anyone's guess, ASLEF and RMT at local and national level seem to be operating the same policy as SWR and thats radio silence or still undecided/They don't know.

DI training has started though and that is a fact.

 

[Goldfish62]

Anyone's guess, ASLEF and RMT at local and national level seem to be operating the same policy as SWR and thats radio silence or still undecided/They don't know.

DI training has started though and that is a fact.

I just find it bizarre that I've been travelling on Aventras for the past 4-5 years or so and all is fine. Oh, and the driver releases and closes the doors.

So what is so special about SWR?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I just find it bizarre that I've been travelling on Aventras for the past 4-5 years or so and all is fine. Oh, and the driver releases and closes the doors.

So what is so special about SWR?

Add to that istr the drivers entered an agreement on DOO with SWR and get paid extra for it already !.

 

[TEW]

Anyone's guess, ASLEF and RMT at local and national level seem to be operating the same policy as SWR and thats radio silence or still undecided/They don't know.

DI training has started though and that is a fact.

The agreed position is driver open/ driver close with guard's having no competency on closing doors on 701s, but that seems likely to be moving to guard's maintaining competency but not doing it under normal circumstances.

 

[Mainsideman]

The agreed position is driver open/ driver close with guard's having no competency on closing doors on 701s, but that seems likely to be moving to guard's maintaining competency but not doing it under normal circumstances.

Is this confirmed? I have heard multiple different things from multiple different staff member?

 

[Samzino]

What this is all summing up to is that nothing yet is concrete if there are different renditions of what can only be one method. So far this is casting much doubt on a December running if the door operations is still in the air like this.

 

[DMckduck97]

The agreed position is driver open/ driver close with guard's having no competency on closing doors on 701s, but that seems likely to be moving to guard's maintaining competency but not doing it under normal circumstances.

That was the original agreement yes, it seems for whatever officialy undisclosed reason though that the goalposts have moved.

As is on the forum it really depends who you ask and whether it's a full moon or not in regards to what the final method of working will be.

Degraded working was agreed in the 2021 guards deal so not sure what else there is to iron out at this point but we shall see

 

[swr444]

from what I've heard from various managers, op standards people and the RMT reps themselves is that driver open guard close is in discussion and is what SWR now want.

 

[Towers]

from what I've heard from various managers, op standards people and the RMT reps themselves is that driver open guard close is in discussion and is what SWR now want.

One can only really surmise from this that some issue has arisen which makes driver closing of doors problematic for whatever reason, and the easiest way around it is to get the guards to do it.

There is now less pressure on squeezing every nanosecond out of dwell times than there was expected to be pre-covid, which would make the usual DOO ‘time savings’ argument moot, and there is of course ongoing pressure to get the things into service at some point, so it wouldn’t be at all unreasonable for SWR to have changed their position & plans for door operation if it helped the process along by some means.

To give a comparison of sorts, GWR’s IETs require platform staff to undertake DOO dispatch, and if the train calls at locations where none are present then a guard must be provided. Odd services which would otherwise be DOO are therefore operated with a guard because the train calls at unmanned stations; a 16x or 387 on the same journey would operated DOO. This demonstrates that sometimes the easiest solution is just to use a guard; it wouldn’t be unreasonable to assume SWR may be in similar territory.

 

[Carlisle]

This demonstrates that sometimes the easiest solution is just to use a guard; it wouldn’t be unreasonable to assume SWR may be in similar territory.

However aren’t the issues your alluding to of defective camera’s on the IETs operating services that’ve been DOO for over 30 years relatively easily solvable at some point if & when the political will of all involved decide to do so ? After all Greater Anglia drivers routinely control doors on all new stock without as far as I’m aware major issue .

 

[43066]

However aren’t the issues your alluding to of defective cameras on the IETs operating services that’ve been DOO for over 30 years relatively easily solvable at some point if & when the political will of all involved decide to do so. ? After all Greater Anglia drivers routinely control doors on all new stock without as far as I’m aware major issue .

Not necessarily. Speculating here, but this does all seem to point to some long running issue with the cameras/monitors on SWR’s stock, and at this stage they simply need to get them into service.

In my experience of operating DOO (“proper” DOO with no other staff) as a driver the default if monitors were defective/unavailable was bat and flag dispatch from platform staff. If there was nobody available to do that it was generally a case of the driver needing to walk back and lock each coach manually (often a ten minute exercise, which completely knackered metro operations).

So no surprise that providing guards for the occasional service has evidently been found to be the easiest approach for GWR. If there’s already a fully trained and competent guard on every train, as we know to be the case of SWR services, it follows that falling back on driver open/guard dispatch is also likely to be by far the easiest solution for them. At this point further delays just avoid this might look like the tail starting to wag the dog.

 

[43096]

So, four years after the fleet should have been in service, the method of working for these trains is still as clear as mud. If anything sums up the dire, shambolic state of the railway, this does.

So what is so special about SWR?

There’s absolutely nothing special about SWR!

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m not sure how many times it needs to be said, but method of operation will be driver open, driver close with a list of exemptions such as station operating incidents, environmental circumstances or defects affecting the cameras and competency retainment.

 

[Carlisle]

Ok thanks for the update

 

[Goldfish62]

I’m not sure how many times it needs to be said, but method of operation will be driver open, driver close with a list of exemptions such as station operating incidents, environmental circumstances or defects affecting the cameras and competency retainment.

Thanks for the reminder. Yet again!

 

[12LDA28C]

In my experience of operating DOO (“proper” DOO with no other staff) as a driver the default if monitors were defective/unavailable was bat and flag dispatch from platform staff. If there was nobody available to do that it was generally a case of the driver needing to walk back and lock each coach manually (often a ten minute exercise, which completely knackered metro operations).

That is by no means the case across all TOCs that operate DOO.

 

[Waterlemon]

I would expect SWR would want maximum publicity to say, look these brand new trains in are use.

No. Soft launch for this year with very little fanfare