GWR 'Project Churchward'

[Snow1964]

Looks like it is provisionally 480 vehicles 24m

DfT has today issued a list of future contracts

Future commercial contracts for DfT and partners

Listing of upcoming Department for Transport (DfT) and associated bodies commercial contracts – known as the commercial pipeline – for which bidders may apply.

www.gov.uk

At line 127 of spreadsheet

First Great Western Limited
Procurement of rolling stock for Thames Valley / North Downs and West (including options)
Replacement of all existing DMUs (and possibly EMUs) with 24m vehicles (currently 20m length) Fleet size TBC but current estimates are for 480 vehicles (mixture of DC BEMU, AC BEMU, AC EMU and bi-modes) to be delivered between 2029 and 2031

Rows 121-126 have Transpennine, SE networker, Northern, Chiltern but they are obviously for other threads

 

[Dan G]

Good find!

I believe some stations in the GWR network are limited to 20m carriages. Can anyone list them?

 

[JonathanH]

Good find!

I believe some stations in the GWR network are limited to 20m carriages. Can anyone list them?

There are two types of restriction - the overall length of platforms, and curvature.

A platform which is 40m long can only take a 2-car unit with 20m carriages, but could also take a 1-car 23m unit.

Where curvature becomes an issue, then it is the way in which the ends of two 23m carriages meet on curves that is the problem.

Both Gunnislake and Looe could take single 150s (2x20m) and 153s (1x23m), but neither could take a 158 (2x23m).

Platform lengths are available in the Sectional Appendix.

 

[Snow1964]

Good find!

I believe some stations in the GWR network are limited to 20m carriages. Can anyone list them?

And a number of platforms in the Bristol area are about 119-123m, can take a 5car 23m, but would struggle with 5car 24m

Some platforms in Bristol area are longer, but some services need more than 4car trains, and I can't imagine anyone will specify a 2car BEMU which rather makes it 3,6,9car or 4,8car, or if they intend to have common fleet with Thames Valley (instead of 387s), 5,10car.

There are limited stations and reversing bays that could take 12car 24m as need 290+m platforms, wouldn't even work on Paddington-Bristol services

 

[Pat31]

I'm guessing DC BEMU is for north downs line? AC BEMU Thames valleys lines? AC EMU for GW mainline local stoppers to Didcot and the Bimodes for the west?

 

[JonathanH]

I'm guessing DC BEMU is for north downs line? AC BEMU Thames valleys lines? AC EMU for GW mainline local stoppers to Didcot and the Bimodes for the west?

Arguably, any stock running between Redbridge and Portsmouth would also need DC capability.

 

[Snow1964]

Still trying to get my head around 480 24m vehicles on DfT sheet

I thought GWR have
Class 150 (20 x 2car) = 40
Class 158 (13 x 2, 5 x 3) = 41
Class 165 (20 x 2, 16 x 3) = 88
Class 166 (21 x 3car) = 63
Class 387 (30 x 4car) = 120
HST approx 20 vehicles remaining
Total 373 vehicles

160 x 20m is 3200m or 133 at 24m
212 x 23m is 4876m or 203 at 24m
Therefore 336 equivalent 24m

So where do the 480 (provisional) less 336 (24m equivalent) = 144 extra vehicles come from.
Or is plan to transfer out similar number of IET bimodes for use elsewhere.

 

[JonathanH]

30, rather than 20 387s but you have the right number of vehicles. There have previously been rumours of more 150s or 158s coming in, as the Castles / 802s need to come off Cardiff to Penzance.

Presumably there are costed options for longer trains on some routes. 480 may be a maximum.

 

[Benjwri]

Still trying to get my head around 480 24m vehicles on DfT sheet

I thought GWR have
Class 150 (20 x 2car) = 40
Class 158 (13 x 2, 5 x 3) = 41
Class 165 (20 x 2, 16 x 3) = 88
Class 166 (21 x 3car) = 63
Class 387 (30 x 4car) = 120
HST approx 20 vehicles remaining
Total 373 vehicles

160 x 20m is 3200m or 133 at 24m
212 x 23m is 4876m or 203 at 24m
Therefore 336 equivalent 24m

So where do the 480 (provisional) less 336 (24m equivalent) = 144 extra vehicles come from.
Or is plan to transfer out similar number of IET bimodes for use elsewhere.

Possibly also options fro replacing IETs which are overworked and don't have long enough formations. Depending on the specs of the trains could see they would definitely be potential for London to Oxford and Banbury fasts, and if the trans are fast enough London to South Wales and Bristol.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can't really work 20 into 24 in that way, because you can't run part of a vehicle. If a service justifies 3x20m (GWR do or did have some 3-car 150 and 158 sets formed by splitting 2-cars) you can't necessarily stick 2x24m on it unless you like overcrowding. That's 1990s BR thinking when they did 3-for-2 with the 158s vs. 18-20m classic DMUs and 20m LHCS.

I'm surprised they're being strict enough to specify 24m vehicles rather than train lengths in metres, as that rules Stadler out, unless they bid noncompliant and spent a lot of time convincing!

 

[Snow1964]

Possibly also options fro replacing IETs which are overworked and don't have long enough formations. Depending on the specs of the trains could see they would definitely be potential for London to Oxford and Banbury fasts, and if the trans are fast enough London to South Wales and Bristol.

I was wondering about this too, if DfT are aiming for a 2029-2031 build, that suggests they might be considering cascading some bimode IETs to another operator. I think the XC voyagers have just had 8 year extension to 2031, so replacing those long diesel runs under the wires must be a possibility

 

[Energy]

I'm surprised they're being strict enough to specify 24m vehicles rather than train lengths in metres, as that rules Stadler out, unless they bid noncompliant and spent a lot of time convincing!

It's only an initial estimate.

From what I can tell initial DfT estimates are done in their expected number of vehicles but the actual train specification for the tender is done in length.

I was wondering about this too, if DfT are aiming for a 2029-2031 build, that suggests they might be considering cascading some bimode IETs to another operator. I think the XC voyagers have just had 8 year extension to 2031, so replacing those long diesel runs under the wires must be a possibility

Also part growth build, if GWR operate more intercity services in the future its easier to redeploy the 802s which currently are on Cardiff - Penzance.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I was wondering about this too, if DfT are aiming for a 2029-2031 build, that suggests they might be considering cascading some bimode IETs to another operator. I think the XC voyagers have just had 8 year extension to 2031, so replacing those long diesel runs under the wires must be a possibility

No, it doesn’t. The idea is push any displaced 80x sets back onto main line duties, not cascade them elsewhere.

I wouldn’t get too hung up over 24m - Turbos are 23.5 metres approx so 5 x 24m will have its doors on probably all of the platforms that can currently take 5 x Turbo. It’s the 158 cars that are just under 23m.

The two lines where 23m vehicles are currently a problem are the Gunny and the Looe. The problem there with 15x is cardan shaft and coupler throw. The first disappears with a BEMU and the technology for the second has moved on a bit since the 1980’s.

A new five car unit design is where GWR’s head is at for both the Cardiff-Penzance and Cardiff-Portsmouth corridors, if they can persuade the DfT.

 

[Snow1964]

Also part growth build, if GWR operate more intercity services in the future its easier to redeploy the 802s which currently are on Cardiff - Penzance.

To put it into context, using latest ORR data (July-Sep) and comparing it to 2019 (same quarter before pandemic)

Table 1223 : Passenger journeys 2019 26.416m and 2023 20.525m (77.7% of 4 years ago)
Table 1233 : Passenger km 2019 1618.4m and 2023 1475.0m (91.1% of 4 years ago

So passengers are travelling further, therefore need more comfort
2019 average was 61.26km and 2023 is 71.87km so travelling 17.3% further

Logically if volumes continue to grow back to pre pandemic levels, and passengers continue to travel 17% further per journey, going to need lot of extra capacity. Actually I cannot see how they could grow IET fleet by 17% (its equivalent to every 9car becoming 10.6car and every 5 car becoming 5.9car) Or current 58x5car and 35x9car =615 needing to become 721 vehicles or roughly 11 extra 10car trains

So maybe the DfT 480 new vehicles includes about 100-140 for growth

 

[WelshBluebird]

In terms of train vs platform lengths - surely SDO is the answer there?
And in terms of the increase in estimated vehicle numbers, I would hope that is an admission that GWR currently do not have anywhere near enough rolling stock!

 

[Pat31]

In terms of train vs platform lengths - surely SDO is the answer there?
And in terms of the increase in estimated vehicle numbers, I would hope that is an admission that GWR currently do not have anywhere near enough rolling stock!

You'd hope so. Someone hopefully is putting 2 and 2 together and seeing the potential to kill many birds with one stone here. But i'm not holding my breath with anything in this country.

 

[class ep-09]

And a number of platforms in the Bristol area are about 119-123m, can take a 5car 23m, but would struggle with 5car 24m

Some platforms in Bristol area are longer, but some services need more than 4car trains, and I can't imagine anyone will specify a 2car BEMU which rather makes it 3,6,9car or 4,8car, or if they intend to have common fleet with Thames Valley (instead of 387s), 5,10car.

There are limited stations and reversing bays that could take 12car 24m as need 290+m platforms, wouldn't even work on Paddington-Bristol services

The answer is SDO ( if needed at all depending on door configuration). It works well on 800’s.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

It’s mildly depressing arriving into Cardiff on 30+ year old ex commuter stock and seeing all these fancy new trains that TfW have whizzing around. The four car flirts seem ideal for local services from Bristol towards Gloucester, Weymouth, Severn Beach etc. while new fixed formation five carriage trains would be better for the Cardiff - Penzance and Cardiff - Portsmouth routes. Don’t know if Stadler offer a five car option but they seem the way to go if new stock is actually happening, look at how Anglia has been transformed.

Lack of a factory in the UK would probably scupper that idea, however.

 

[Snow1964]

It’s mildly depressing arriving into Cardiff on 30+ year old ex commuter stock and seeing all these fancy new trains that TfW have whizzing around.

Even more depressing is thought that it's looking like another 6-7 years with the current 31+ year old stock

 

[RobShipway]

No, it doesn’t. The idea is push any displaced 80x sets back onto main line duties, not cascade them elsewhere.

I wouldn’t get too hung up over 24m - Turbos are 23.5 metres approx so 5 x 24m will have its doors on probably all of the platforms that can currently take 5 x Turbo. It’s the 158 cars that are just under 23m.

The two lines where 23m vehicles are currently a problem are the Gunny and the Looe. The problem there with 15x is cardan shaft and coupler throw. The first disappears with a BEMU and the technology for the second has moved on a bit since the 1980’s.

A new five car unit design is where GWR’s head is at for both the Cardiff-Penzance and Cardiff-Portsmouth corridors, if they can persuade the DfT.

I can understand issues being with the Looe and Gunny lines with 23m vehicles, but is there also not issues with some stations, due to the length of the platforms on services from Weymouth to Gloucester/Bristol Temple Meads?

I am presuming that if the Cardiff - Portsmouth stock is going over to 5 car diesel/dc electric trains, then services between Gatwick/Redhill to Reading would go over to similar trains, but would possibly only be 3 or 4 car trains, rather than 5 car trains?

 

[JonathanH]

It’s mildly depressing arriving into Cardiff on 30+ year old ex commuter stock and seeing all these fancy new trains that TfW have whizzing around.

It is cyclic. One day those TfW trains will be 30+ years old. It isn't possible to have brand new stock on all routes all of the time.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I can understand issues being with the Looe and Gunny lines with 23m vehicles, but is there also not issues with some stations, due to the length of the platforms on services from Weymouth to Gloucester/Bristol Temple Meads?

23m vehicles operate on those routes now so you sort out any problems with short platforms by using SDO, just like they do in East Anglia with the 755 units.

 

[RobShipway]

23m vehicles operate on those routes now so you sort out any problems with short platforms by using SDO, just like they do in East Anglia with the 755 units.

Thanks @Clarence Yard, that is pretty much what I thought would be the case.

I know many may call for longer platforms, but in many cases there is not the space to enable longer platforms so SDO is the answer.

 

[Trainbike46]

Does anyone have clarity whether level-boarding was specified for this tender?

 

[Snow1964]

Does anyone have clarity whether level-boarding was specified for this tender?

Don't think tender has been issued yet, still at pre-tender discussion stage

 

[Energy]

Don't think tender has been issued yet, still at pre-tender discussion stage

Indeed, Northern's is specified with level boarding so I'd expect a similar requirement from GWR.

 

[Trainbike46]

Indeed, Northern's is specified with level boarding so I'd expect a similar requirement from GWR.

That is good news, thank you

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, Northern's is specified with level boarding so I'd expect a similar requirement from GWR.

Interesting that GWR have specified 24m vehicles, which I guess means they'll have to be doors at quarters and a drop between the bogies?

Stadler can I'm sure do that, anyway, the FLIRT Nordic is (unusually for them) not articulated, but rather 24-26m (not sure which) classic bogied vehicles but on the FLIRT platform with the low floor and moving steps etc.

 

[Energy]

Interesting that GWR have specified 24m vehicles, which I guess means they'll have to be doors at quarters and a drop between the bogies?

Not specified yet. The DfT document lists estimates, its still likely that the tender itself will list the required total length and capacity rather than the number of carriages itself.

Stadler can I'm sure do that, anyway, the FLIRT Nordic is (unusually for them) not articulated, but rather 24-26m (not sure which) classic bogied vehicles but on the FLIRT platform with the low floor and moving steps etc.

Yes, the Norwegian platforms are 760mm so should be possible though they still have a few steps inside.

 

[irish_rail]

Interesting that GWR have specified 24m vehicles, which I guess means they'll have to be doors at quarters and a drop between the bogies?

Stadler can I'm sure do that, anyway, the FLIRT Nordic is (unusually for them) not articulated, but rather 24-26m (not sure which) classic bogied vehicles but on the FLIRT platform with the low floor and moving steps etc.

I suspect you are right in the likely chosen manufacturer. It'll be Stadler, I'd bet my mortgage on it. I'm no fan, I've stated that before, just hope we don't end up with something that looks and feels like a 777. Cardiff to Portsmouth or Penzance is more intercity than the metro feel the route seems to be portrayed as these days. Lots and lots of people doing journeys of around 2 hours, especially on PZ to Cardiff, so in my view, some Stadler Metro contraption just won't cut it, but I fear and suspect that's what we will be lumbered with.