Should ScotRail take over operation of the Chieftain and Aberdonian?

[Bletchleyite]

So it seems from other threads that LNER really don't want the Highland Chieftain and Aberdeen service.

Should ScotRail consider taking it over instead? If they order 5 car 80x or similar to replace the HSTs as seems not unlikely when the HSTs go off lease in 2030, they could use double sets of these and work the crewing alongside the Caledonian Sleeper, which while it isn't part of ScotRail is a fellow ScotGov operation so it should be feasible for them to work together.

 

[Gwr12345]

I think having them as part of LNER does make the most sense as they have the stock and are best placed timetabling wise, although I could see an arrangement similar to the one once used on the Glasgow to Newcastle 156 service where staff from Scotrail staff them from Edinburgh onwards, effectively hiring an LNER set, and the costs would be slightly cheaper

 

[Wynd]

Oh yes, I can imagine it now, the first class business traveler used to a meal and a drink sitting on each other laps 3x over in a 158.

Not to mention the political uproar of many Scottish towns and cities losing their London connection.

This is the opposite of a good idea.

 

[DanNCL]

Absolutely not. LNER need to deal with it whether they like it or not. They’re a government owned company contracted by the government to run those services. I’m pretty sure the contract whatever form it’s in doesn’t have a get out clause for can’t be bothered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh yes, I can imagine it now, the first class business traveler used to a meal and a drink sitting on each other laps 3x over in a 158.

Nobody is suggesting using 158s, you'd not get 90mph paths for a start. It would involve rolling stock similar to LNER's.

Not to mention the political uproar of many Scottish towns and cities losing their London connection.

The suggestion is that ScotRail would operate to London (either Kings Cross or Euston).

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't see why they are needed, especially the Inverness service. Most people travelling end to end would fly surely or take the sleeper?
Then you have the expensive crewing arrangements which requires the crew to stay in hotels etc.
Terminate LNER at Edinburgh then run an extra Scotrail service to Inverness instead

 

[zwk500]

Really if these services are only worth 1 or 2 a day a genuine question should be asked about their value.
Having said that, I can't see them working better as part of Scotrail - LNER's core business is Long distance travel to London, Scotrails is comparatively shorter trips to/from the Central belt.
Maybe Scotrail can crew the unit beyond Edinburgh to save LNER some driver costs, but Scotrail getting a microfleet that then can't interwork at the London end seems very inefficient.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Scotrail getting a microfleet that then can't interwork at the London end seems very inefficient.

It's fairly likely ScotRail will, in 2030, replace the HSTs with a fleet that would be suitable for this, e.g. 80x or CAFs. Not a microfleet.

 

[zwk500]

It's fairly likely ScotRail will, in 2030, replace the HSTs with a fleet that would be suitable for this, e.g. 80x or CAFs. Not a microfleet.

Which sections of Scotrail operation are 125mph, or will be by then? I think any replacement of the HSTs would be 100mph but with better acceleration (e.g. something similar to WMR's new units), IMHO.

 

[PG]

Existing cross-border services should remain with their current operators. It may be worthwhile though for those operators to reach agreement with ScotRail to crew the north of Edinburgh sections.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which sections of Scotrail operation are 125mph, or will be by then? I think any replacement of the HSTs would be 100mph but with better acceleration (e.g. something similar to WMR's new units), IMHO.

I'd have expected an InterCity order to be 200km/h because that's fairly standard for such stock these days, even if they don't need it now.

 

[A S Leib]

I know it's a significantly shorter route, but the contrast between this and GWR increasing Paddington – Carmarthen services to bihourly seems rather large.

 

[43096]

Really if these services are only worth 1 or 2 a day a genuine question should be asked about their value.
Having said that, I can't see them working better as part of Scotrail - LNER's core business is Long distance travel to London, Scotrails is comparatively shorter trips to/from the Central belt.
Maybe Scotrail can crew the unit beyond Edinburgh to save LNER some driver costs, but Scotrail getting a microfleet that then can't interwork at the London end seems very inefficient.

These services - certainly the Chieftain - had their origins in a productive use of marginal time in the diagrams. So they were a good way of using expensive assets to generate more revenue.

 

[Tayway]

No, as there are plenty of through travellers, and cutting the direct link would just encourage more people to fly. It's also a welcome capacity boost at busy times of day.

 

[JonathanH]

I know it's a significantly shorter route, but the contrast between this and GWR increasing Paddington – Carmarthen services to bihourly seems rather large.

GWR have units and traincrew based 30 miles away from Carmarthen. Aberdeen is 130 miles away from LNER's nearest base.

 

[DanNCL]

I don't see why they are needed, especially the Inverness service. Most people travelling end to end would fly surely or take the sleeper?
Then you have the expensive crewing arrangements which requires the crew to stay in hotels etc.
Terminate LNER at Edinburgh then run an extra Scotrail service to Inverness instead

You’d be amazed. A lot of people use them as a through service. Not always end to end but journeys through from North of Edinburgh to England are common. From my own experience I’d say on average fewer than half of the passengers get off the through services in Edinburgh. Quite a contrast to the previous through services between the Glasgow South Western and Tyne Valley lines where you could usually count the number of people staying on at Carlisle on one hand.
Flying is only a viable alternative for London to Aberdeen and Inverness. Other popular journeys such as London - Dundee or Newcastle - Aberdeen are still flows where rail is very much the most popular option.

 

[NSE]

I think @Bletchleyite makes a good suggestion. When they replace the HST’s it’ll be with long distance style stock. If it’s 125mph capable (as someone suggested it probably would be) I see no reason Scotrail couldn’t operate the service instead. The idea of working with Caledonian Sleeper staff possibly has some merit for better utilisation of staff and maybe save on some resource costs.

That said, I do think a situation where Scotrail crew them north of Edinburgh makes sense. It’ll be much more resilient. I certainly think they should stay, but I can understand why a hybrid staffing situation where both companies play a role would suit an operation here where the services in question are 1/2/3 times a day.

 

[WAB]

That said, I do think a situation where Scotrail crew them north of Edinburgh makes sense. It’ll be much more resilient. I certainly think they should stay, but I can understand why a hybrid staffing situation where both companies play a role would suit an operation here where the services in question are 1/2/3 times a day.

I've always maintained that they should be worked by Scotrail crews north of Edinburgh. One advantage is that if the north of Edinburgh portion of an LNER service is cancelled, they could work an additional service using Scotrail units in the same path should units be available.

 

[Kingston Dan]

There's a reasonable market between Aberdeen and Teesside because of the offshore industry - there's even a handful of direct daily
flights. Ending direct Aberdeen - NE England trains (at least) would be lose a chunk of business to rail and encourage flying.

 

[gordonthemoron]

LNER permit alcohol, usually, Scotrail don’t, end of discussion

 

[Gaelan]

Should ScotRail consider taking it over instead? If they order 5 car 80x or similar to replace the HSTs as seems not unlikely when the HSTs go off lease in 2030, they could use double sets of these and work the crewing alongside the Caledonian Sleeper, which while it isn't part of ScotRail is a fellow ScotGov operation so it should be feasible for them to work together.

IIRC the sleepers use freight drivers, so this strategy only works for guards and customer hosts.

Something along these lines, or jointly-operated trains (like many continental international services), seems very reasonable though. Ideally LNER and ScotRail have compatible fleets so worst case, after disruption, you have a red train running around Scotland for a day but everything more or less runs.

 

[Ianigsy]

When I caught the up Chieftain from Edinburgh to York at the end of October, I could see from the reservations that a lot of people were travelling from the likes of Perth and Pitlochry through to London. It’s nicely timed for people checking out of accommodation and is also a popular train south of Edinburgh because it only calls at Newcastle and York, so any marginal element is balanced out by the fact that it tends to run well loaded if not full for the last couple of hours.

What might be interesting to see would be a reincarnation of the Clansman to connect the north west of England with Scotland north of the central belt.

 

[Bald Rick]

No. If someone other than the main ECML operator is running it, the additional costs would be significant, and the impact of disruption much worse than today.

 

[hux385]

What about if LNER actually took on a few more through services north of Edinburgh and then had crews based out of Aberdeen too? This would reduce lodge turns and would ensure that they run a reliable, consistent service up north rather than constantly curtailing at Edinburgh.

 

[Gaelan]

What about if LNER actually took on a few more through services north of Edinburgh and then had crews based out of Aberdeen too? This would reduce lodge turns and would ensure that they run a reliable, consistent service up north rather than constantly curtailing at Edinburgh.

Ideally, you'd want a solution to the current problem where LNER cancels everything north of Newcastle/Edinburgh when there are weather issues, so even though ScotRail are running you end up with huge holes in the timetable.

 

[hux385]

Ideally, you'd want a solution to the current problem where LNER cancels everything north of Newcastle/Edinburgh when there are weather issues, so even though ScotRail are running you end up with huge holes in the timetable.

This problem is particularly compounded when there is no ticket acceptance in place during disruption.

Another operator to consider is XC? Should they run north of Edinburgh or should their timetable slots go to either LNER or ScotRail?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another operator to consider is XC? Should they run north of Edinburgh or should their timetable slots go to either LNER or ScotRail?

XC shouldn't have anything added to their portfolio unless they get the Avanti 221s and 222s. They can barely resource what they've got.

 

[D6130]

LNER permit alcohol, usually, Scotrail don’t, end of discussion

I believe that ScotRail are currently consulting on ending the alcohol ban. It's already rarely - if ever - enforced in my experience.

 

[Starmill]

What about if LNER actually took on a few more through services north of Edinburgh and then had crews based out of Aberdeen too? This would reduce lodge turns and would ensure that they run a reliable, consistent service up north rather than constantly curtailing at Edinburgh.

Don't LNER already have train managers and customer hosts at Aberdeen, as well as a light maintenance contract? So basically everything apart from drivers?

So it seems from other threads that LNER really don't want the Highland Chieftain and Aberdeen service.

This is a bit of a reach.

 

[Millisle]

I wonder if the OP can establish an evidential base from LNER rather than posters on this board for the first sentence of the first post.