Ryanair on Rail

[gerryuk]

Like them or loath them, Ryanair has completely transformed air travel in Europe. People can travel to destinations as cheap as chips or pay for all the add-ons, it's the customer's choice.

So you want to travel from Sheffield to Glasgow one way, as an example.

On the internet the ticket will cost you £45, but you have to download the ticket to your phone, if you want to turn up to the station and buy it there, it will cost you £80.

If you want an aisle seat it will cost you £12, a window seat will cost you £18, or you can turn up and take any seat that has not been booked for free.

A small handbag that sits on your lap will cost you £5, a small suitcase that goes in the overhead holder will cost you £20 and a large suitcase will cost £40. You pay nothing more with no bags. A bicycle will cost you £30 and if you want to travel with a pet it will cost you £25 extra.

If you want to buy food and drinks, you have to purchase them on the internet, you will not be able to purchase them on the train, cuts out waste.

Internet is available on the train at a cost. All intercity trains will have screens at the back of seats, you can pay to watch films and gamble if you like, but at a cost.

The best and most reliable intercity stock will be retained, all other stock will be phased out at the end of their working life. Intercity will end up with only one stock of trains (bi modes), this will keep maintenance costs down.

Regional railways stock will also be brought down to just one stock of trains, again this will keep maintenance costs down.

Last year Ryanair carried 181.8 million passengers with a turnover of 10.78billion euros. The railways generated 7.72 billion in ticket sales from 1.3 billion customers.

Like I say, Ryanair has transformed air travel for millions, would their business model work on the railways or do we just keep going with the clapped out system we have today?

 

[skyhigh]

That sounds horrendous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a rather big exaggeration of Ryanair's business model.

Yes, the model could be used on trains, Lumo are close to it (but don't seem to do the add ons). However as with air travel the conventional model remains.

 

[HullRailMan]

Not a chance - airports and aircraft are restricted and controlled spaces, you can’t possibly replicate that on trains with multiple stops. Why would anyone suddenly accept paying money for things that are optional/free now, like seat selection? The economics of the two industries are completely different.

 

[yorksrob]

The joy of rail travel is being able to turn up, buy a ticket and plonk yourself on the next train. While some longer distance journeys lend themselves to booking in advance, most shorter distance trips' competitor is the car where people just turn up and go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not a chance - airports and aircraft are restricted and controlled spaces, you can’t possibly replicate that on trains with multiple stops. Why would anyone suddenly accept paying money for things that are optional/free now, like seat selection? The economics of the two industries are completely different.

I actually do think seat selection at reservation time for all TOCs could be an upsell. I would pay a couple of quid for it. I'm genuinely surprised Trainline hasn't done it.

 

[gerryuk]

Why would anyone suddenly accept paying money for things that are optional/free now, like seat selection? The economics of the two industries are completely different.

You are missing the point. Ask 100 people on the platform at Hull station if they would like cheaper tickets but they will have to pay for the add ons if they want them, most will go for the cheaper ticket option. The tickets will be cheaper than you currently pay today, not the same.

 

[JamesT]

I actually do think seat selection at reservation time for all TOCs could be an upsell. I would pay a couple of quid for it. I'm genuinely surprised Trainline hasn't done it.

I remember when reservations cost on top of the ticket price. Was there something that prompted everyone to drop charging for them?
I suspect a single retailer trying to add on charges like that would quickly find they lose much of their customer base to the competition.

 

[The Planner]

How do you enforce the reservations, window seats and luggage? You can hardly enforce reservations now.

 

[mrcheek]

also, they would be running "London" to "Edinburgh" services that actually ran from Maidenhead to Dunbar

 

[Bletchleyite]

I remember when reservations cost on top of the ticket price. Was there something that prompted everyone to drop charging for them?
I suspect a single retailer trying to add on charges like that would quickly find they lose much of their customer base to the competition.

Trainline is itself evidence that is false.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

As me above - this would need enforcing and that is not done now so it won’t work.

 

[hexagon789]

also, they would be running "London" to "Edinburgh" services that actually ran from Maidenhead to Dunbar

Finsbury Park to Musselburgh maybe?

 

[Zerothebrake!]

People get in trains with no intention of buying a ticket - try doing that on a plane.

 

[Energy]

If you want an aisle seat it will cost you £12, a window seat will cost you £18, or you can turn up and take any seat that has not been booked for free.

Nobody would pay £12 for an aisle. If you don't pay for a reservation worst case you get an aisle seat (and save yourself £12), best case you get a window seat. By paying £12 you just guarantee yourself the worst seat, and if you prefer the aisle then there is a high chance there is an aisle seat free.

A small handbag that sits on your lap will cost you £5

£5 for a backpack? Good luck...

If you want to buy food and drinks, you have to purchase them on the internet, you will not be able to purchase them on the train, cuts out waste.

If I had to pre book I'd expect a good quality meal, otherwise, I'd go to a shop beforehand.

Also, enforcing pre-booking for a cup of tea?

Internet is available on the train at a cost. All intercity trains will have screens at the back of seats, you can pay to watch films and gamble if you like, but at a cost.

Volo TV was on carriage D of First Great Western HSTs for a bit. Originally it was paid but it became free after a while. It wasn't used, if people were willing to pay for seatback films (and not just download them themselves beforehand) Ryanair would have already done it.

 

[gerryuk]

Nobody would pay £12 for an aisle. If you don't pay for a reservation worst case you get an aisle seat (and save yourself £12), best case you get a window seat. By paying £12 you just guarantee yourself the worst seat, and if you prefer the aisle then there is a high chance there is an aisle seat free.

£5 for a backpack? Good luck...

If I had to pre book I'd expect a good quality meal, otherwise, I'd go to a shop beforehand.

Also, enforcing pre-booking for a cup of tea?

Volo TV was on carriage D of First Great Western HSTs for a bit. Originally it was paid but it became free after a while. It wasn't used, if people were willing to pay for seatback films (and not just download them themselves beforehand) Ryanair would have already done it.

Why would no one pay for a aisle? Couples wanting to travel together and sit together would pay for a window and aisle. Couples and family's /groups will pay for seats at tables, many customers will pay for seats in the direction the train is going. Many wont want seats near the doors due to the noise and other customers who keep passing through. You may be lucky and get the seat of your choice without paying, but then again you could end up with no seat at all, it will be your choice.
As for food, unless you are in business class on a airline, you are getting a microwave pre pack meal, it wont be any different on the trains.

 

[Energy]

Couples wanting to travel together and sit together would pay for a window and aisle.

If it was a flat £5 per seat maybe but for £30 total?

Couples and family's /groups will pay for seats at tables

A 2 adult 2 child family would have to pay £60 to just reserve the table, that's a lot. A Chiltern family travelcard from Warwick Parkway is £60, which covers the off-peak outward and return trains and zone 1 - 6 travel for 2 adults and 2 children.

Many wont want seats near the doors due to the noise and other customers who keep passing through.

For £12-18, I suspect many won't care.

but then again you could end up with no seat at all

So now sitting down is an optional extra...

As for food, unless you are in business class on a airline, you are getting a microwave pre pack meal, it wont be any different on the trains.

But on trains, people can buy beforehand.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

The only time I travelled by Ryanair the staff were shouting at passengers, if I want to replicate this experience on the railway I could just use the through platforms at Piccadilly!

 

[peterblue]

I think the paying for reservations model could work in some situations - but certainly not at the extortionate £12/£18 mark quoted above. I can imagine people paying a small amount to guarantee a table, or a quiet coach. This is free now, but it would be a fairly reasonable upsell for a hypothetical low-cost rail carrier.

 

[gerryuk]

If it was a flat £5 per seat maybe but for £30 total?

A 2 adult 2 child family would have to pay £60 to just reserve the table, that's a lot. A Chiltern family travelcard from Warwick Parkway is £60, which covers the off-peak outward and return trains and zone 1 - 6 travel for 2 adults and 2 children.

For £12-18, I suspect many won't care.

So now sitting down is an optional extra...

But on trains, people can buy beforehand.

Remember you are paying far less for your ticket with the Ryanair model than you are paying for the system we have today. If you want a window seat or even a guaranteed seat of your choice, then you have to pay extra. As for food on the train, to eliminate wastage, only the meals bought before hand are taken on the train.
You should also be able to purchase insurance beforehand to pay up, if the train is delayed or cancelled.

How do you enforce the reservations, window seats and luggage? You can hardly enforce reservations now.

As for luggage, when you pay for your ticket and luggage on the internet you are sent luggage labels (same as the cruise industry) that you attach to your bag. Gateline staff can scan the labels with hand held devices to make sure they are genuine. The gates at stations will be updated to also scan your labels. Unless you have genuine labels on your luggage the gates will not open. You will then be directed to a machine to pay for your luggage but its going to cost you a lot more. Staff on board the train will also have updated hand held devices to scan tickets and luggage. If you have paid for your ticket but have not paid for your luggage online, the onboard host can automatically charge your account as they have your details.

 

[philosopher]

Finsbury Park to Musselburgh maybe?

Would doing this actually be any cheaper or make any sense for the railway operator? To me, all it would do is eat up valuable capacity by having a train terminate at a station in which trains do not usually terminate at while annoying passengers who would have a longer onward journey.

What saves money for airlines may not be the case for the railways.

 

[peterblue]

Would doing this actually be any cheaper or make any sense for the railway operator? To me, all it would do is eat up valuable capacity by having a train terminate at a station in which trains do not usually terminate at while annoying passengers who would have a longer onward journey.

What saves money for airlines may not be the case for the railways.

It's not too uncommon outside of western Europe to have a railway station somewhat distant (but not too distant) from the actual city centre, due to higher construction costs associated with running to the very centre.

There'll never be a railway equivalent of Paris Beauvais or Frankfurt Hahn though

 

[gerryuk]

I actually do think seat selection at reservation time for all TOCs could be an upsell. I would pay a couple of quid for it. I'm genuinely surprised Trainline hasn't done it.

Only if the initial ticket price is lower though.

 

[1D54]

Far too many false figures in the OP but hey ho. Pointless comparing FR with rail travel simply because they do not compare in the UK. I use Ryanair but only out of necessity and as a last resort but i suppose many say such things about Avanti etc.

 

[The Ham]

I think the paying for reservations model could work in some situations - but certainly not at the extortionate £12/£18 mark quoted above. I can imagine people paying a small amount to guarantee a table, or a quiet coach. This is free now, but it would be a fairly reasonable upsell for a hypothetical low-cost rail carrier.

I suspect that is your set the price at 1/10th that value yours probably get quite a few opt for it (so £1.20 and £1.80).

Arguably, if your set it too high very few would be willing to pay it, however set it low enough that lots of people think that if they don't do it everyone else will save you could make a lot of money by doing so.

If your were really following the low cost airline model you'd vary the price based on demand. First few seat reservations cost just a few pence (so why wouldn't you), however as the train gets busier the price of a reservation ramps up. In doing so, someone seeing a £12 seat reservation would then pay it in fear that the train is busy so there's then a high chance there'll not be a seat for them at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only if the initial ticket price is lower though.

Not really. It's a service that is mostly not offered, so offering it at an additional price isn't unreasonable.

(Note I am talking about specific seat selection, not a random reservation as all sites will give you)

TBH it's what to me mostly justifies the Trainsplit share of saving fee, far more than the actual splits!

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

I don't think the low cost airline model translates to the railway well/at all. There's rarely if ever a real shortage of luggage space, lone travellers have maybe a slight preference for window seats and tables but seat preferences are uncommon save for enthusiasts and very regular travellers. Extra charges probably only have a limited role, and the example prices above are ridiculous.

Inter-city rail is competing at the lower end with coaches. At that end of the market people really just want to get there but don't want to pay much for it. A better model might be something like OuiGo. Eg. using trains with higher density seating less frequently, travelling by slower routes and to quieter/secondary stations. That might help cut the costs down better than just introducing thousands of extra charges to regular trains.

 

[6Gman]

Remember you are paying far less for your ticket with the Ryanair model than you are paying for the system we have today. If you want a window seat or even a guaranteed seat of your choice, then you have to pay extra. As for food on the train, to eliminate wastage, only the meals bought before hand are taken on the train.
You should also be able to purchase insurance beforehand to pay up, if the train is delayed or cancelled.


As for luggage, when you pay for your ticket and luggage on the internet you are sent luggage labels (same as the cruise industry) that you attach to your bag. Gateline staff can scan the labels with hand held devices to make sure they are genuine. The gates at stations will be updated to also scan your labels. Unless you have genuine labels on your luggage the gates will not open. You will then be directed to a machine to pay for your luggage but its going to cost you a lot more. Staff on board the train will also have updated hand held devices to scan tickets and luggage. If you have paid for your ticket but have not paid for your luggage online, the onboard host can automatically charge your account as they have your details.

Given there are loads of long distance trains with only 3 staff (one of whom is driving, and another minding the catering trolley) and plenty of stations with either one or no member of staff who are all the staff who are going to do these jobs?

 

[gerryuk]

Given there are loads of long distance trains with only 3 staff (one of whom is driving, and another minding the catering trolley) and plenty of stations with either one or no member of staff who are all the staff who are going to do these jobs?

On the trains you will not need anymore staff, the conductor will have a hand held device that will read tickets and luggage labels. As for stations, as more people choose the cheapest option (just like the airlines) there will be a lot less luggage than people carry today. With more up to date technology on the gates and hand held devices for staff it should not be a problem.
I would also assume that, like the airlines, less luggage means less fuel required?

 

[6Gman]

On the trains you will not need anymore staff, the conductor will have a hand held device that will read tickets and luggage labels. As for stations, as more people choose the cheapest option (just like the airlines) there will be a lot less luggage than people carry today. With more up to date technology on the gates and hand held devices for staff it should not be a problem.
I would also assume that, like the airlines, less luggage means less fuel required?

So, as well as "all tickets please" the Conductor or Train Manager will also need to call "all luggage labels please" ?