What ECML timetable improvements would you like to see?

[xotGD]

Moderator note: Split from

Edinburgh-London rail journeys "to be cut to 4 hours"

Many rail journeys between Edinburgh and London are expected to be cut to around four hours from next December in a long-awaited move that will accelerate the shift from plane to train, London North Eastern Railway (LNER) has told Scotland on Sunday. A final decision to speed up the east coast...

www.railforums.co.uk

It would be nice if we could have a regular fast service to/from Leeds. Calling at Wakefield only and doing it in 2 hours.

 

[hexagon789]

Edinburgh-London rail journeys "to be cut to 4 hours"

Many rail journeys between Edinburgh and London are expected to be cut to around four hours from next December in a long-awaited move that will accelerate the shift from plane to train, London North Eastern Railway (LNER) has told Scotland on Sunday. A final decision to speed up the east coast...

www.railforums.co.uk

It would be nice if we could have a regular fast service to/from Leeds. Calling at Wakefield only and doing it in 2 hours.

Ironically, that's what the original Leeds HST service pattern was, albeit every second one - Wakefield only.

 

[Halish Railway]

I would rather have what was originally proposed for the Azuma ECML timetable recast, that being 1tph Leeds-Wakefield Westgate-Doncaster-London and 1tph Leeds-Wakefield Westgate-Peterborough-London which would have sped up journeys and provided faster non-radial connectivity by running non-stop from Wakefield to Peterborough. This would have provided two evenly spaced very fast trains per hour from Leeds and Wakefield to London.

Calls at Newark, Grantham and Stevenage would have been covered by the additional Newcastle stopper and 1tp2h London to Harrogate via Hambleton service.

 

[Kite159]

In my eyes 1tph should be London - Doncaster - Wakefield - Leeds with the 2nd train picking up one or two stops along the ECML.

Although in a purely crayonist world I would have a "East Coast Connect" style service running 110mph EMUs calling at all the intercity stations and terminating at York, similar to the LNR Crewe trains, would allow better connectivity between the stations on the ECML rather than more skip stopping and for other services to be sped up.

 

[Grumpy]

It would be nice if we could have a regular fast service to/from Leeds. Calling at Wakefield only and doing it in 2 hours.

Why be so unambitious? There used to be a (pre-Azuma days)1430 KX-Leeds that was PU at Stevenage then non stop to Wakefield. It was usually parked up in Leeds by 1630 after hanging around several minutes at Westgate awaiting booked departure time

 

[JKF]

Why not skip Wakefield too? It’s not that big a place, 1tph to London should be sufficient.

 

[mike57]

I have always thought that Leeds could support a proper fast service, back in HST days there was a Leeds - Wakefield - London peak hours which from memory was 2h and a few minutes compared with the typical 2h 15m today. I used it a few times when I lived near Harrogate.

What time could be realistically acheived with the current route via Wakefield, and if you went via Hambledon and straight to London what would that time be?

 

[Ken H]

I have always thought that Leeds could support a proper fast service, back in HST days there was a Leeds - Wakefield - London peak hours which from memory was 2h and a few minutes compared with the typical 2h 15m today. I used it a few times when I lived near Harrogate.

What time could be realistically acheived with the current route via Wakefield, and if you went via Hambledon and straight to London what would that time be?

The Leeds - Wakefield - KX trains used to be pick up only at Wakefield, and set down only coming north. (u and s between the hours and minutes in the timetables. What affect that had on timekeeping I dont know. And with so many travelling on various passes these days, how do you police it? But and mike57 says, most stopped elsewhere except for the peak hour trains - up in the morning, down in the evenings.

 

[A S Leib]

Under the proposed May 2022 (2023? Whichever the one with big changes would have been) timetable, what would the LNER calling pattern have been? I'm assuming that Stevenage, Peterborough and York would have kept at least one nonstop London service per hour with 2tph each to Leeds and Edinburgh (+ ½ tph to Harrogate and Lincoln) but I don't know beyond that.

 

[Halish Railway]

What time could be realistically achieved with the current route via Wakefield, and if you went via Hambleton and straight to London what would that time be?

The Saturdays-only 06:55 Skipton to London via Hambleton does Leeds to Temple Hirst Jn in 19 minutes, including 30 seconds pathing allowance, and a typical fast service from Edinburgh does Temple Hirst Jn to King's Cross in 1 hour 37 minutes, including 2.5 minutes of pathing allowance, so 1 hour 56 minutes in total.

The improvements to linespeeds and acceleration facilitated by the TransPennine route upgrade between Leeds and Micklefield will cut a few minutes off of the journey time, although a bit more time would have been saved by including Micklefield to Selby within the TRU scope, as that stretch of track could easily have its linespeed raised to 100mph in addition to faster acceleration enabled by electrification.

Under the proposed May 2022 (2023? Whichever the one with big changes would have been) timetable, what would the LNER calling pattern have been? I'm assuming that Stevenage, Peterborough and York would have kept at least one nonstop London service per hour with 2tph each to Leeds and Edinburgh (+ ½ tph to Harrogate and Lincoln) but I don't know beyond that.

To the best of my knowledge:

Deffered May 2022/2023 plan:
1tp2h London to Lincoln, as is
1tph London-Peterborough-Newark-Doncaster-Wakefield-Leeds
1tph London-Stevenage-Grantham-Doncaster-Wakefield-Leeds
1tp2h London-York as is, later to be extended to Middlesborough calling at Northallerton and Thornaby
1tph London-Stevenage-(Peterborough 1tp2h?)-Grantham-Newark-Doncaster-York-Darlington-Durham-Newastle
1tph London-Peterborough-Doncaster-York-Darlington-Newcastle-(Morpeth occasionally)-(Alnmouth 1tp2h)-(Berwick 1tp2h)-(Dunbar infrequently)-Edinburgh. IIRC this would have also served Aberdeen and Inverness, rather than the faster Edinburgh train
1tph London-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh


Original pre-covid plan:
1tp2h London-Stevenage-Grantham-Newark-Lincoln
1tph London-Peterborough-Wakefield-Leeds, with every other train being extended to Bradford Forster Square, calling at Shipley
1tph London-Doncaster-Wakefield-Leeds
1tp2h London-Stevenage-Grantham-Newark-Retford-Doncaster-Leeds-Horsfoth-Harrogate
1tp2h London-Peterborough-York-Northallerton-Thornaby-Middlesborough
1tph London-Stevenage-(Peterborough 1tp2h)-Grantham-Newark-Doncaster-York-Darlington-(Durham 1tp2h)-Newcastle
1tph London-Peterborough-Doncaster-York-Darlington-Newcastle-(Morpeth occasionally)-(Alnmouth 1tp2h)-Berwick-(Dunbar infrequently)-Edinburgh. This would have also served Aberdeen and Inverness, rather than the faster Edinburgh train
1tph London-(York 1tp2h)-Newcastle-Edinburgh

 

[Peter0124]

Maybe running the third Newcastle via Leeds and Wakefield could be an option. Giving 3tph to all and keeping Newcastle - Leeds links good.

 

[TheBigD]

The Saturdays-only 06:55 Skipton to London via Hambleton does Leeds to Temple Hirst Jn in 19 minutes, including 30 seconds pathing allowance, and a typical fast service from Edinburgh does Temple Hirst Jn to King's Cross in 1 hour 37 minutes, including 2.5 minutes of pathing allowance, so 1 hour 56 minutes in total.

The improvements to linespeeds and acceleration facilitated by the TransPennine route upgrade between Leeds and Micklefield will cut a few minutes off of the journey time, although a bit more time would have been saved by including Micklefield to Selby within the TRU scope, as that stretch of track could easily have its linespeed raised to 100mph in addition to faster acceleration enabled by electrification.


To the best of my knowledge:

Deffered May 2022/2023 plan:
1tp2h London to Lincoln, as is
1tph London-Peterborough-Newark-Doncaster-Wakefield-Leeds
1tph London-Stevenage-Grantham-Doncaster-Wakefield-Leeds
1tp2h London-York as is, later to be extended to Middlesborough calling at Northallerton and Thornaby
1tph London-Stevenage-(Peterborough 1tp2h?)-Grantham-Newark-Doncaster-York-Darlington-Durham-Newastle
1tph London-Peterborough-Doncaster-York-Darlington-Newcastle-(Morpeth occasionally)-(Alnmouth 1tp2h)-(Berwick 1tp2h)-(Dunbar infrequently)-Edinburgh. IIRC this would have also served Aberdeen and Inverness, rather than the faster Edinburgh train
1tph London-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh

Proposed May 2022 was generally...

Ex Kings Cross...
xx03 Edinburgh (Aberdeen and Inverness extensions)
(Peterborough, Newark, Doncaster, York, Darlington*, Durham*, Newcastle Alnmouth *, Berwick*)
xx10 Leeds
(Peterborough, Grantham, Doncaster, Wakefield)
xx30 Edinburgh
(York, Newcastle)
xx33 Newcastle
(Stevenage, Grantham, York, Northallerton*, Darlington, Durham)
xx40 Leeds (Harrogate extension*)
(Stevenage, Newark, Doncaster, Wakefield)
xx47 Lincoln* (even hours)
(Peterborough, Grantham, Newark)
xx47 York* (odd hours)
(Peterborough, Retford, Doncaster)

* generally every 2 hours.

1 tpd Cleethorpes with stops to be decided
(extension of Lincoln service)

1 tpd to Middlesbrough with a stop at Thornaby
(extension of York service)

1tpd Bradford
1tpd Skipton
1tpd Huddersfield
(all extensions of Leeds services)

 

[johntea]

Why not skip Wakefield too? It’s not that big a place, 1tph to London should be sufficient.

I guess one of the issues is a local passenger accidentally boards one of these 'non stop' services at Leeds assuming it calls at Wakefield and/or Doncaster and the next thing they know they're on a 200 mile diversion!

Something I still see quite often on the Leeds to Harrogate LNER route, passengers just see a LNER service at Platform 6 and assume 'London train' next thing they know Big Ben has turned into Bettys Tea Rooms (not so bad now as they can bail at Horsforth I guess), they have an incredible knack sometimes of being unable to read the destination screens or pay attention to the several guard announcements prior to departure...

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Why not skip Wakefield too? It’s not that big a place, 1tph to London should be sufficient.

You obviously say that without access to revenue figures for the ECML. Wakefield’s proximity to the M1 makes it an enormous revenue earner far more than just the city itself. It is the most valuable call in terms of revenue between London and Leeds.

Demand and revenue is not always just based on the local population.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I have always thought that Leeds could support a proper fast service, back in HST days there was a Leeds - Wakefield - London peak hours which from memory was 2h and a few minutes compared with the typical 2h 15m today. I used it a few times when I lived near Harrogate.

Except for a few people working in rail company PR departments and some rail enthusiasts do many people really care about the difference between 2 hours and a few minutes and 2 hours and a few more minutes? My money would be on no.

 

[A S Leib]

Except for a few people working in rail company PR departments and some rail enthusiasts do many people really care about the difference between 2 hours and a few minutes and 2 hours and a few more minutes? My money would be on no.

If it makes them able to catch a connection which they'd have missed under a slower timetable, possibly, although a) they might not attribute the connections to the faster journey times, b) delays could mean missed connections anyway, and c) at stations with as many groups of services as Leeds (Doncaster, Peterborough etc.) there's almost inevitably going to be some connections which can't be timetabled conveniently, at least with current infrastructure.

 

[yorkie]

The Leeds - Wakefield - KX trains used to be pick up only at Wakefield, and set down only coming north. (u and s between the hours and minutes in the timetables.

When was this?

What affect that had on timekeeping I dont know. And with so many travelling on various passes these days, how do you police it?

If this was to be done, it wouldn't need "policing"; there would be absolutely no point in that.

 

[YorksLad12]

Maybe running the third Newcastle via Leeds and Wakefield could be an option. Giving 3tph to all and keeping Newcastle - Leeds links good.

I've been wanting that for decades (more so after the Azumas were introduced, but you'd not find the paths between York and Leeds.

 

[YorksLad12]

Under the proposed May 2022 (2023? Whichever the one with big changes would have been) timetable, what would the LNER calling pattern have been? I'm assuming that Stevenage, Peterborough and York would have kept at least one nonstop London service per hour with 2tph each to Leeds and Edinburgh (+ ½ tph to Harrogate and Lincoln) but I don't know beyond that.

At the time, while learning new skillz, I tried doing it as a graphic (before "First East Coast" became "Lumo"). It might have changed since this version, of course.

 

[James90012]

I have wondered if a 1tph Leeds to Cambridge which picks up the intermediate calls would be worthwhile, so both Leeds could be sped up and avoid taking up a path over Welwyn Viaduct. Would also mean all York and northward services could skip stop as required without having to provide the direct links e.g. Retford to Newark, etc.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I have wondered if a 1tph Leeds to Cambridge which picks up the intermediate calls would be worthwhile, so both Leeds could be sped up and avoid taking up a path over Welwyn Viaduct. Would also mean all York and northward services could skip stop as required without having to provide the direct links e.g. Retford to Newark, etc.

A lot of demand Newark to the north.

 

[Halish Railway]

A lot of demand Newark to the north.

Although this could change with the eventual implementation of 1tph between Lincoln and Doncaster, meaning that passengers from Lincoln would be more inclined to change at Doncaster, rather than Newark, especially given the greater choice of trains stopping at Doncaster.

 

[A S Leib]

but you'd not find the paths between York and Leeds.

Is TPE planning on restoring Newcastle–Manchester Piccadilly / Airport services once it has the staff to?

 

[mike57]

Except for a few people working in rail company PR departments and some rail enthusiasts do many people really care about the difference between 2 hours and a few minutes and 2 hours and a few more minutes? My money would be on no.

I think a typical 17-20 minute saving (1h 56m for a non stop service according @Halish Railway ) on a 2hr journey would be significant, it could be acheived with current infrastructure and speeds. Less stops, less passenger churn, more comfortable. Maybe not even an hourly service, just the ones that are typically busy. Leeds is the 4th largest urban area in the UK after London Birmingham and Manchester, and would warrant this sort of service.

If this was to be done, it wouldn't need "policing"; there would be absolutely no point in that.

There were stories that back in the day when a lot of Reading calls out of Paddington in peak hours were 'u' on an occasion when a spare set was available it was run as relief from Reading to Exeter which was first advertised stop to set down, and the ex Paddington service for Exeter ran through Reading non stop with ticket inspectors on board to issue excess fares for the Reading - Exeter leg of the journey to all the Reading commuters that had boarded knowing it (usually) stopped at Reading. True or not, I really dont know, it wasn't personal experience.

 

[Jrg]

Except for a few people working in rail company PR departments and some rail enthusiasts do many people really care about the difference between 2 hours and a few minutes and 2 hours and a few more minutes? My money would be on no.

I travel Wakefield to London regularly

a few mins would make a big difference. If i am able to get the 07.13 thats a 1 hr 46 mins train compared to the usual 2 hrs 2 mins. The 07.13 feels so much faster

coming home when it is always 2 hrs plus is tedious

saving another 10 or 15 mins each way per journey would be a massive bonus to my working day

 

[Narrowgauge725]

Why not skip Wakefield too? It’s not that big a place, 1tph to London should be sufficient.

Those of us who don’t live in Leeds cannot rely on Transpennine connections into into Leeds park at Wakefield. I do remember the days when it was just sub 2 hours from Wakefield. Also you can park at Wakefield which is virtually impossible at Leeds and then only after queuing to get into the centre of Leeds.

 

[class 9]

Back in InterCity days the 0700 Lds- Kings Cross Yorkshire Pullman used to be timetabled 1h59.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I think a typical 17-20 minute saving (1h 56m for a non stop service according @Halish Railway ) on a 2hr journey would be significant, it could be acheived with current infrastructure and speeds. Less stops, less passenger churn, more comfortable. Maybe not even an hourly service, just the ones that are typically busy. Leeds is the 4th largest urban area in the UK after London Birmingham and Manchester, and would warrant this sort of service.

I travel Wakefield to London regularly

a few mins would make a big difference. If i am able to get the 07.13 thats a 1 hr 46 mins train compared to the usual 2 hrs 2 mins. The 07.13 feels so much faster

coming home when it is always 2 hrs plus is tedious

saving another 10 or 15 mins each way per journey would be a massive bonus to my working day

I probably didn't word it particularly well. My point was really, not would existing passengers prefer a faster journey but, would knocking a few minutes off attract enough new passengers to make it worthwhile, especially if removing stops possibly drives other passengers away? When the train is by far the fastest option from Leeds city centre to central London anyway would making it a little bit faster be enough to make users of other modes of transport care and switch to the train?

 

[30907]

At the time, while learning new skillz, I tried doing it as a graphic (before "First East Coast" became "Lumo"). It might have changed since this version, of course.

Something like this (5 per 2h, one being a "slow") would be needed to allow a faster Leeds service - it could probably manage Stevenage as well as Doncaster, but that's a detail.
You need consistent times at Leeds both for timetabling and for connections, so running one super-fast and one covering DON/GTM/PBO/SVG doesn't work terribly well, and is only a marginal improvement (if any) on generalised journey time.

 

[3RDGEN]

Is TPE planning on restoring Newcastle–Manchester Piccadilly / Airport services once it has the staff to?

Not in the short term, from the Modern Railways Dec/Jan articles the limit is that there's only six long distance passenger paths per hour York/Newcastle so LNER going to 3tph means TPE losses out, in the hours when XC only run one service TPE could perhaps run instead but that would give an ad-hoc service pattern.

Transport for the North have concerns about the reduction in connectivity across the North but have now agreed to the proposed Winter 24 timetable. The January article mentions TfN have received commitments to infrastructure improvements north of York to allow a seventh passenger path per hour which TPE could then use to reinstate 2tph Newcastle/Leeds/Manchester. There's no timescales on that.

In their "Our Plan for the Future" document TPE states "By Dec-24 we will have cleared our driver training backlog and be in a position to increase North Route services to 4 trains per hour between Manchester and Leeds.". Hopefully that will actually be 4tph Manchester - Leeds/York.