Depends on a few factors, mainly clearances. 25,000V requires a larger clear zone than 1,500V. It's not massive, but if the original wiring was done on a budget then it can make all the difference.And how much is involved changing from the original 1500V DC to 25KV AC?
I've thought about it a fair bit over the years and, probably not, the main use of the line upon electrification was shifting coal from Yorkshire, if nothing else the miners strike(and the CEGB power station building program)would have killed it and if it had been converted at quite a large expense, injured BR in a big way to boot.Yet another Woodhead conjecture thread, so apologies in advance.
If in the 1970's Woodhead had been converted to 25KV OHLE would it have lasted longer?
My understanding is that the Woodhead Line would have been retained for passenger use, but the "social railway" forced the retention of the Hope Valley line.For passenger services it's not actually well positioned(hence why they finished earlier) and the work it would have needed to make it useful would have been enormously expensive,
This is correct. From electrification to closure the Woodhead route was primarily for moving coal not people.the main use of the line upon electrification was shifting coal from Yorkshire
Closure was in 1981 which was before the miners' strike. By that time coal from the east side of the Pennines was mainly going to the big baseload power stations in the Trent and Aire valleys, not over the Pennines.if nothing else the miners strike(and the CEGB power station building program)would have killed it
An example of DC to AC conversion is Liverpool Street-Southend, which was converted to 6.25kV AC in the 1950s but not upgraded to 25kV until much later.If in the 1970's Woodhead had been converted to 25KV OHLE would it have lasted longer? And how much is involved changing from the original 1500V DC to 25KV AC?
And that was done over a long Bank Holiday weekend in the early May that year, which seems amazingly quick.A nearby route, Oxford Road to Altrincham, was converted in 1971.
If the OHLE was already up to requirements as far as spacing and insulation, then it really was just a case of unplugging it and plugging it in again in a different outlet.And that was done over a long Bank Holiday weekend in the early May that year, which seems amazingly quick.
I believe significant sections were reconductored with AWAC (aluminium steel composite conductor wire), but that might have been done later.If the OHLE was already up to requirements as far as spacing and insulation, then it really was just a case of unplugging it and plugging it in again in a different outlet.
One source I've seen, namely "An Illustrated History of the Woodhead Route" by Alan Whitehouse (OPC/Ian Allan - 2010 book) claims that the cost of converting the Woodhead Line from 1500V (DC) to 25kV (AC) had been estimated at some £23mln.
Yet five years later, when the Manchester Piccadilly-Hadfield / Glossop section, at around 14 miles, and maybe a third of the overall Woodhead route length, was re-electrified, the cost was somehow now just £680,000.
Perhaps the exact same cost accountants used when preparing the (possibly inflated?) £23mln estimate, also ended up calculating the likely cost of the repairs needed on the Ribblehead viaduct in the early 1980s ?!
This is absolutely correct.I believe significant sections were reconductored with AWAC (aluminium steel composite conductor wire), but that might have been done later.
My understanding is the project was entirely financed by the scrap value of copper removed from the old (and more expansive) installation.
Figures were based on the Liverpool Street>Shenfield 1500V DC to AC conversion, which had a load more problems with clearances and things.One source I've seen, namely "An Illustrated History of the Woodhead Route" by Alan Whitehouse (OPC/Ian Allan - 2010 book) claims that the cost of converting the Woodhead Line from 1500V (DC) to 25kV (AC) had been estimated at some £23mln.
Yet five years later, when the Manchester Piccadilly-Hadfield / Glossop section, at around 14 miles, and maybe a third of the overall Woodhead route length, was re-electrified, the cost was somehow now just £680,000.
Perhaps the exact same cost accountants used when preparing the (possibly inflated?) £23mln estimate, also ended up calculating the likely cost of the repairs needed on the Ribblehead viaduct in the early 1980s ?!
There is a significant difference between providing power for 3/6-car EMUs on a line 14 miles, starting in the centre of Manchester that rises to the Pennine foothills, and providing power across the Pennines with a 275/400KV feed direct from the national grid and capable of running express and even freight services into south Yorkshire.One source I've seen, namely "An Illustrated History of the Woodhead Route" by Alan Whitehouse (OPC/Ian Allan - 2010 book) claims that the cost of converting the Woodhead Line from 1500V (DC) to 25kV (AC) had been estimated at some £23mln.
Yet five years later, when the Manchester Piccadilly-Hadfield / Glossop section, at around 14 miles, and maybe a third of the overall Woodhead route length, was re-electrified, the cost was somehow now just £680,000.
Perhaps the exact same cost accountants used when preparing the (possibly inflated?) £23mln estimate, also ended up calculating the likely cost of the repairs needed on the Ribblehead viaduct in the early 1980s ?!
The Hadfield 25kV conversion was certainly a bare bones project, covering only the passenger lines. The goods lines and sidings were de-wired. I believe only the insulators and contact wires were changed. To this day the OLE still uses the original 1950s fixed termination design. In the 2022 heatwaves the sag was so severe that the line had to be closed even to diesel trains, due to insufficient clearance!There is a significant difference between providing power for 3/6-car EMUs on a line 14 miles, starting in the centre of Manchester that rises to the Pennine foothills, and providing power across the Pennines with a 275/400KV feed direct from the national grid and capable of running express and even freight services into south Yorkshire.
Indeed, travelling on the line towards Guide Bridge it becomes clear just how much more electrified infrastructure was present in the 1500V era, simply from the width of the gantries and the old mounting points for overhead equipment on them.There is a significant difference between providing power for 3/6-car EMUs on a line 14 miles, starting in the centre of Manchester that rises to the Pennine foothills, and providing power across the Pennines with a 275/400KV feed direct from the national grid and capable of running express and even freight services into south Yorkshire.
I'm sure you're right.My understanding is that the Woodhead Line would have been retained for passenger use, but the "social railway" forced the retention of the Hope Valley line.
Once passenger trains had to be kept on the Hope Valley line either way, there was no reason to retain Woodhead.
A retired former colleague of mine once told me, "the road to financial approval is not often paved with honest bricks".One source I've seen, namely "An Illustrated History of the Woodhead Route" by Alan Whitehouse (OPC/Ian Allan - 2010 book) claims that the cost of converting the Woodhead Line from 1500V (DC) to 25kV (AC) had been estimated at some £23mln.
Yet five years later, when the Manchester Piccadilly-Hadfield / Glossop section, at around 14 miles, and maybe a third of the overall Woodhead route length, was re-electrified, the cost was somehow now just £680,000.
Perhaps the exact same cost accountants used when preparing the (possibly inflated?) £23mln estimate, also ended up calculating the likely cost of the repairs needed on the Ribblehead viaduct in the early 1980s ?!
All fed from Edgeley 132kV feederDid the Hadfield/Glossop 25kV installation even require a feeder point or was/is it single end fed from the WCML installation?
Stockport?All fed from Edgeley 132kV feeder
Just south of Stockport.Stockport?
It depends - it would be perfect for true South Pennine expresses (especially with the 4 track sections), not just for Sheffield, but direct to Hull/York via Doncaster and Lincolnshire.For passenger services it's not actually well positioned
If in the 1970's Woodhead had been converted to 25KV OHLE would it have lasted longer? And how much is involved changing from the original 1500V DC to 25KV AC?
I've thought about it a fair bit over the years and, probably not, the main use of the line upon electrification was shifting coal from Yorkshire, if nothing else the miners strike(and the CEGB power station building program)would have killed it and if it had been converted at quite a large expense, injured BR in a big way to boot
So even if converted to 25kv, and even if the coal traffic was still there, it would still be a relatively inefficient way of moving it.
Thinking back to around 1982, and I got the train to Penistone, from Sheffield (Midland, obviously). Seemed to remember it reversed somewhere outside Sheffield, is this correct, memories are a bit hazy, it was winter and dark.It's often brought up that Beeching proposed keeping Woodhead and the Bakewell routes whilst closing the Hope Valley route. We all know the reverse happened but if it hadn't was it actually envisioned that Manchester-Sheffield services would have been orphaned at Sheffiled Victoria if Sheffield Midland remained the main station?