25KV over Woodhead.

[vidal]

Yet another Woodhead conjecture thread, so apologies in advance.

If in the 1970's Woodhead had been converted to 25KV OHLE would it have lasted longer? And how much is involved changing from the original 1500V DC to 25KV AC?

James

 

[najaB]

And how much is involved changing from the original 1500V DC to 25KV AC?

Depends on a few factors, mainly clearances. 25,000V requires a larger clear zone than 1,500V. It's not massive, but if the original wiring was done on a budget then it can make all the difference.

We had a thread about it a while back: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ohle-clearances-and-25kv-v-1500v-dc.156225/

 

[JJmoogle]

Yet another Woodhead conjecture thread, so apologies in advance.

If in the 1970's Woodhead had been converted to 25KV OHLE would it have lasted longer?

I've thought about it a fair bit over the years and, probably not, the main use of the line upon electrification was shifting coal from Yorkshire, if nothing else the miners strike(and the CEGB power station building program)would have killed it and if it had been converted at quite a large expense, injured BR in a big way to boot.

For passenger services it's not actually well positioned(hence why they finished earlier) and the work it would have needed to make it useful would have been enormously expensive, and still leave you wondering why you hadn't just worked on other routes instead, they're more direct to the major population centres and actually pass through places on the way

 

[HSTEd]

For passenger services it's not actually well positioned(hence why they finished earlier) and the work it would have needed to make it useful would have been enormously expensive,

My understanding is that the Woodhead Line would have been retained for passenger use, but the "social railway" forced the retention of the Hope Valley line.

Once passenger trains had to be kept on the Hope Valley line either way, there was no reason to retain Woodhead.

 

[JJmoogle]

Yes he talks about it a lot in the second report (developing trunk routes), in which he points to recent electrifcation and upgrading, and the possibility of the electrification extending across Manchester to Liverpool as being major plus points in the lines favour.

If, during the reorganisation of Sheffield in the 60s, the decision had been made to undertake the expensive connection into Midland and the electrification across Manchester into liverpool it could have survived, but, it was easier and cheaper to keep Hope Valley for passangers, and Woodhead isolated for frieght transit, which wrote the death sentence once it came around to renewal time, although tbf I don't think Beeching could have predicted the total collapse of industry in such a short period since he was writing.

That is a rather intresting lost future to consider, with BR of the late 80s and beyond you'd probably have seen much quicker electrification of the rest of the Trans-Pennines and the Midland into Sheffield, and the reopening of the closed routes eventually, in the same way the ribble valley was.

 

[Magdalia]

the main use of the line upon electrification was shifting coal from Yorkshire

This is correct. From electrification to closure the Woodhead route was primarily for moving coal not people.

if nothing else the miners strike(and the CEGB power station building program)would have killed it

Closure was in 1981 which was before the miners' strike. By that time coal from the east side of the Pennines was mainly going to the big baseload power stations in the Trent and Aire valleys, not over the Pennines.

If in the 1970's Woodhead had been converted to 25KV OHLE would it have lasted longer? And how much is involved changing from the original 1500V DC to 25KV AC?

An example of DC to AC conversion is Liverpool Street-Southend, which was converted to 6.25kV AC in the 1950s but not upgraded to 25kV until much later.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Part of the Woodhead line was, of course, subsequently converted to 25kV AC without too much difficulty in 1984 - Piccadilly to Glossop / Hadfield. A nearby route, Oxford Road to Altrincham, was converted in 1971.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A nearby route, Oxford Road to Altrincham, was converted in 1971.

And that was done over a long Bank Holiday weekend in the early May that year, which seems amazingly quick.

 

[najaB]

And that was done over a long Bank Holiday weekend in the early May that year, which seems amazingly quick.

If the OHLE was already up to requirements as far as spacing and insulation, then it really was just a case of unplugging it and plugging it in again in a different outlet.

 

[HSTEd]

If the OHLE was already up to requirements as far as spacing and insulation, then it really was just a case of unplugging it and plugging it in again in a different outlet.

I believe significant sections were reconductored with AWAC (aluminium steel composite conductor wire), but that might have been done later.

My understanding is the project was entirely financed by the scrap value of copper removed from the old (and more expansive) installation.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

One source I've seen, namely "An Illustrated History of the Woodhead Route" by Alan Whitehouse (OPC/Ian Allan - 2010 book) claims that the cost of converting the Woodhead Line from 1500V (DC) to 25kV (AC) had been estimated at some £23mln.

Yet five years later, when the Manchester Piccadilly-Hadfield / Glossop section, at around 14 miles, and maybe a third of the overall Woodhead route length, was re-electrified, the cost was somehow now just £680,000.

Perhaps the exact same cost accountants used when preparing the (possibly inflated?) £23mln estimate, also ended up calculating the likely cost of the repairs needed on the Ribblehead viaduct in the early 1980s ?!

 

[Tio Terry]

One source I've seen, namely "An Illustrated History of the Woodhead Route" by Alan Whitehouse (OPC/Ian Allan - 2010 book) claims that the cost of converting the Woodhead Line from 1500V (DC) to 25kV (AC) had been estimated at some £23mln.

Yet five years later, when the Manchester Piccadilly-Hadfield / Glossop section, at around 14 miles, and maybe a third of the overall Woodhead route length, was re-electrified, the cost was somehow now just £680,000.

Perhaps the exact same cost accountants used when preparing the (possibly inflated?) £23mln estimate, also ended up calculating the likely cost of the repairs needed on the Ribblehead viaduct in the early 1980s ?!

Changing from DC to AC electrification requires changes to the immunisation of Signalling and Telecommunications systems also. Modern resignalling systems usually make provision for AC electrification so if somewhere has recently been resignalled it's quite possible that electrification costs will be lower than somewhere that has not been signalled with an already largely immune system.

 

[Trackman]

I believe significant sections were reconductored with AWAC (aluminium steel composite conductor wire), but that might have been done later.

My understanding is the project was entirely financed by the scrap value of copper removed from the old (and more expansive) installation.

This is absolutely correct.

One source I've seen, namely "An Illustrated History of the Woodhead Route" by Alan Whitehouse (OPC/Ian Allan - 2010 book) claims that the cost of converting the Woodhead Line from 1500V (DC) to 25kV (AC) had been estimated at some £23mln.

Yet five years later, when the Manchester Piccadilly-Hadfield / Glossop section, at around 14 miles, and maybe a third of the overall Woodhead route length, was re-electrified, the cost was somehow now just £680,000.

Perhaps the exact same cost accountants used when preparing the (possibly inflated?) £23mln estimate, also ended up calculating the likely cost of the repairs needed on the Ribblehead viaduct in the early 1980s ?!

Figures were based on the Liverpool Street>Shenfield 1500V DC to AC conversion, which had a load more problems with clearances and things.

 

[snowball]

Wouldn't DC to AC conversion require a lot of work to bond the track and nearby metal objects to earth at frequent intervals?

 

[Whistler40145]

I think the track circuits require replacement

 

[AM9]

One source I've seen, namely "An Illustrated History of the Woodhead Route" by Alan Whitehouse (OPC/Ian Allan - 2010 book) claims that the cost of converting the Woodhead Line from 1500V (DC) to 25kV (AC) had been estimated at some £23mln.

Yet five years later, when the Manchester Piccadilly-Hadfield / Glossop section, at around 14 miles, and maybe a third of the overall Woodhead route length, was re-electrified, the cost was somehow now just £680,000.

Perhaps the exact same cost accountants used when preparing the (possibly inflated?) £23mln estimate, also ended up calculating the likely cost of the repairs needed on the Ribblehead viaduct in the early 1980s ?!

There is a significant difference between providing power for 3/6-car EMUs on a line 14 miles, starting in the centre of Manchester that rises to the Pennine foothills, and providing power across the Pennines with a 275/400KV feed direct from the national grid and capable of running express and even freight services into south Yorkshire.

 

[Greybeard33]

There is a significant difference between providing power for 3/6-car EMUs on a line 14 miles, starting in the centre of Manchester that rises to the Pennine foothills, and providing power across the Pennines with a 275/400KV feed direct from the national grid and capable of running express and even freight services into south Yorkshire.

The Hadfield 25kV conversion was certainly a bare bones project, covering only the passenger lines. The goods lines and sidings were de-wired. I believe only the insulators and contact wires were changed. To this day the OLE still uses the original 1950s fixed termination design. In the 2022 heatwaves the sag was so severe that the line had to be closed even to diesel trains, due to insufficient clearance!

 

[HSTEd]

There is a significant difference between providing power for 3/6-car EMUs on a line 14 miles, starting in the centre of Manchester that rises to the Pennine foothills, and providing power across the Pennines with a 275/400KV feed direct from the national grid and capable of running express and even freight services into south Yorkshire.

Indeed, travelling on the line towards Guide Bridge it becomes clear just how much more electrified infrastructure was present in the 1500V era, simply from the width of the gantries and the old mounting points for overhead equipment on them.

 

[Grumpy]

My understanding is that the Woodhead Line would have been retained for passenger use, but the "social railway" forced the retention of the Hope Valley line.

Once passenger trains had to be kept on the Hope Valley line either way, there was no reason to retain Woodhead.

I'm sure you're right.
However I cant help thinking that the closure of the 4 miles or so between Deepcar and Penistone was a mistake. It used to take 15 minutes from Penistone to Victoria and it's now 45 to Midland via Barnsley. Even allowing for a reversal at Woodburn a modern DMU ought to be able to do it in not much more than 20 minutes, giving a saving of 25 minutes or so on the 75 minute journey from Huddersfield

 

[gingertom]

One source I've seen, namely "An Illustrated History of the Woodhead Route" by Alan Whitehouse (OPC/Ian Allan - 2010 book) claims that the cost of converting the Woodhead Line from 1500V (DC) to 25kV (AC) had been estimated at some £23mln.

Yet five years later, when the Manchester Piccadilly-Hadfield / Glossop section, at around 14 miles, and maybe a third of the overall Woodhead route length, was re-electrified, the cost was somehow now just £680,000.

Perhaps the exact same cost accountants used when preparing the (possibly inflated?) £23mln estimate, also ended up calculating the likely cost of the repairs needed on the Ribblehead viaduct in the early 1980s ?!

A retired former colleague of mine once told me, "the road to financial approval is not often paved with honest bricks".

 

[HSTEd]

Did the Hadfield/Glossop 25kV installation even require a feeder point or was/is it single end fed from the WCML installation?

 

[Elecman]

Did the Hadfield/Glossop 25kV installation even require a feeder point or was/is it single end fed from the WCML installation?

All fed from Edgeley 132kV feeder

 

[Whistler40145]

All fed from Edgeley 132kV feeder

Stockport?

 

[Greybeard33]

Stockport?

Just south of Stockport.

 

[AlastairFraser]

For passenger services it's not actually well positioned

It depends - it would be perfect for true South Pennine expresses (especially with the 4 track sections), not just for Sheffield, but direct to Hull/York via Doncaster and Lincolnshire.
But history unfortunately intervened and now we are in the predicament we are in.

 

[Helvellyn]

It's often brought up that Beeching proposed keeping Woodhead and the Bakewell routes whilst closing the Hope Valley route. We all know the reverse happened but if it hadn't was it actually envisioned that Manchester-Sheffield services would have been orphaned at Sheffiled Victoria if Sheffield Midland remained the main station?

 

[SteveM70]

If in the 1970's Woodhead had been converted to 25KV OHLE would it have lasted longer? And how much is involved changing from the original 1500V DC to 25KV AC?

I've thought about it a fair bit over the years and, probably not, the main use of the line upon electrification was shifting coal from Yorkshire, if nothing else the miners strike(and the CEGB power station building program)would have killed it and if it had been converted at quite a large expense, injured BR in a big way to boot

And moreover, all of that coal traffic required diesel traction on all the various routes required diesel traction at either end, didn't it?

So even if converted to 25kv, and even if the coal traffic was still there, it would still be a relatively inefficient way of moving it.

 

[Falcon1200]

So even if converted to 25kv, and even if the coal traffic was still there, it would still be a relatively inefficient way of moving it.

Indeed, and once the Woodhead route's principal traffic became the MGRs to Fiddlers Ferry that for me was an Achilles heel; Every train required diesel haulage from pit to Rotherwood, Wath or Penistone, electric haulage over the Pennines, and diesel again from Mottram or Godley Jc to the power station; Plus trains from Wath required bankers for Worsborough too! So 3, or 4, sets of locos and crews, with much inefficient time wasted at the changeover points.

 

[mike57]

It's often brought up that Beeching proposed keeping Woodhead and the Bakewell routes whilst closing the Hope Valley route. We all know the reverse happened but if it hadn't was it actually envisioned that Manchester-Sheffield services would have been orphaned at Sheffiled Victoria if Sheffield Midland remained the main station?

Thinking back to around 1982, and I got the train to Penistone, from Sheffield (Midland, obviously). Seemed to remember it reversed somewhere outside Sheffield, is this correct, memories are a bit hazy, it was winter and dark.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Woodhead was doomed once capacity became available, with the general decline in traffic, for coal trains on other Trans Pennine routes thus enabling diesel haulage throughout.

If Fiddlers Ferry power station had not been built, then the Woodhead and Bakewell routes would probably be still with us today, and the Hope Valley with its troublesome Totley Tunnel closed. Ironically Fiddlers Ferry had intended to be fed from the new, nearby Parkside colliery, but the yields proved to be very disappointing. Building a west facing curve between Midland and Victoria in Sheffield would not have been an issue for all the land was in railway ownership - being the former Park and City goods depots - but now buried under Derek Dooley Drive.

An electrified passenger main line (which could have been converted to 25kV AC) between two major cities was sacrificed and replaced by Met Camm DMUs on the Hope Valley route - a serious downgrade! Today the standard timing between Manchester and Sheffield is 53mins with one call at Stockport; the fastest timing (1958) on the Woodhead route was 51 mins with two calls at Guide Bridge and Penistone.