So many announcements, so few people taking them on board

[mike57]

It’s notable that signallers in ROCs/signalling centres are expected to cope with an open plan environment, while undertaking their highly safety critical job.

In our industry (Civil nuclear) the working environment is all part of the safety assessment, not just screen design and controls, but things like noise suppression, and maintaining a quiet comfortable environment. I designed a new control room and had to jump through all the hoops, we even ended up with viewing windows so that visitors could watch and have explanations without disturbing operators.

 

[43066]

In our industry (Civil nuclear) the working environment is all part of the safety assessment, not just screen design and controls, but things like noise suppression, and maintaining a quiet comfortable environment. I designed a new control room and had to jump through all the hoops, we even ended up with viewing windows so that visitors could watch and have explanations without disturbing operators.

That’s fascinating to hear. The ECO (electrical control office) side of signalling seems to be similar, in the sense that it’s in a separate office? Perhaps this is something to discuss in a different threat, if you fancy creating one?

 

[Horizon22]

That’s fascinating to hear. The ECO (electrical control office) side of signalling seems to be similar, in the sense that it’s in a separate office? Perhaps this is something to discuss in a different threat, if you fancy creating one?

Most ROCs are still risk-assessed for various human factors (lighting, HVAC, seating, desk layout, external noise etc.) so I don't think it's that different really.

Whilst I think there's more to it then some suggest, I would agree an open-plan office is somewhat different to being on a train and dealing with announcements over the PA.

 

[HSTEd]

Modern open plan offices are designed to prevent sound carrying and are surprisingly effective at this.

PA systems are obviously designed for the opposite effect.

 

[al78]

Headphones and phones mean most people operate in their own little bubble.

This, and in my experience there is a lot of gormlessness around in general, with people seemingly dawdling around in their own little dreamworld. This is why you occasionally get someone almost walking straight into you even if you are stationary and standing to one side of the pavement.

Pedestrian smartphone overuse and inattentional blindness: an observational study in Taipei, Taiwan - BMC Public Health

Background Smartphone addiction has become a crucial social issue. Past studies have indicated that phone use such as talking or texting while walking constitutes a dual task that may cause pedestrians inattentional blindness and impair their awareness of surroundings. Methods This study...

bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com

"Smartphone addiction has become a crucial social issue. Past studies have indicated that phone use such as talking or texting while walking constitutes a dual task that may cause pedestrians inattentional blindness and impair their awareness of surroundings."

 

[CharlieSpotted]

This, and in my experience there is a lot of gormlessness around in general, with people seemingly dawdling around in their own little dreamworld. This is why you occasionally get someone almost walking straight into you even if you are stationary and standing to one side of the pavement.

This is a profoundly unkind way to describe people who find the constant noise of the modern world hard to deal with...

 

[The Puddock]

Most ROCs are still risk-assessed for various human factors (lighting, HVAC, seating, desk layout, external noise etc.) so I don't think it's that different really.

Whilst I think there's more to it then some suggest, I would agree an open-plan office is somewhat different to being on a train and dealing with announcements over the PA.

The ROC I am intimately familiar with ended up having to have an ‘acoustic partition’ (aka a glass wall) built to seperate the control desks on one side of the operating floor from the signalling workstations on the other but is still unacceptably noisy to both signallers and controllers when there is a big incident going on. Also you can’t hear the callers on the phones when its raining heavily because of the noise of it hitting the flat roof. Oh and the lights induce regular migraines in a significant number of the staff.

All in all it‘s a horrendous working environment despite having ergonomic sign-off.

 

[talldave]

With great difficulty, I was already having discussions re home working prior to Covid. For Teams/Zoom calls and meetings I use over ear headphones and have a very quiet WFH environment. Video calls are easier than Voice only calls. Colleagues know to look at the camera...

Apologies for OT reply, but have you tried the auto captioning in those applications? They're getting quite good now.

 

[Horizon22]

The ROC I am intimately familiar with ended up having to have an ‘acoustic partition’ (aka a glass wall) built to seperate the control desks on one side of the operating floor from the signalling workstations on the other but is still unacceptably noisy to both signallers and controllers when there is a big incident going on. Also you can’t hear the callers on the phones when its raining heavily because of the noise of it hitting the flat roof. Oh and the lights induce regular migraines in a significant number of the staff.

All in all it‘s a horrendous working environment despite having ergonomic sign-off.

Oh yes, I'm not going to suggest the human factors assessments were necessarily conducted all that well...

 

[mike57]

All in all it‘s a horrendous working environment despite having ergonomic sign-off

There is no way that would of even got to the 'can we do it this way' stage on the project I was on.

Apologies for OT reply, but have you tried the auto captioning in those applications? They're getting quite good now.

I haven't got to needing them yet, decent headphones and a quiet environment and I am fine

 

[TUC]

This is a profoundly unkind way to describe people who find the constant noise of the modern world hard to deal with...

Odd how people seemed to manage 30 years ago.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

This is a profoundly unkind way to describe people who find the constant noise of the modern world hard to deal with...

What constant noise is this? The only noise you tend to hear when walking down the pavement is the sound of traffic, which most people are easily able to cope with.

 

[TUC]

In the UK we take a more risk averse approach towards these matters than many other countries, and the railway is no different in that respect. Whether we should adopt that stance is ultimately a value judgement, but a clear benefit of our approach is that we do live in an extremely “safe” country in global terms, as you realise when you travel to even equivalent European countries such as France (and there are plenty of stats to back this up).



It would only be more useful for a tiny stratum of the population. For the rest it would simply add to the background noise being complained about.

Firstly, if by that 'tiny stratum' you mean visually impaired people, then there is a legal as well as moral responsibility to pay particular attention to their needs and make reasonable adjustments. Secondly, plenty of other passengers would find it helpful to know which side doors will open on. Look at many arriving trains, with passengers clustering towards doors on both sides, unsure which set of doors will open.

 

[island]

And yet, with all the barrage of announcements, it’s quite rare to be told which side of the train will be against the platform. As in ‘We are now approaching Xxx - the doors will open on the left of the train.” Easy to deduce from TD maps at stations where there’s a choice, but no PA systems seem to do it automatically.

A couple of LU lines have this, from memory Victoria and Jubilee but I may be wrong.

2- Manual announcement a few seconds later repeating all the information that was literally just announced. Why?

SWR requires guards to make manual announcements N times per journey including after setting off from the first stop and major cities, apparently in response to passenger feedback.

Apologies for OT reply, but have you tried the auto captioning in those applications? They're getting quite good now.

This requires AI which many firms disallow.

 

[stuu]

how do people manage in an open plan office if they cant cope with a few announcements? Near me I can hear at least 6 different conversations yet I am still able to concentrate on this thread while I have a tea break?

Surely the difference is that you can just zone out in an office, as it's nothing to do with you. Every time an announcement starts on a train you have to pay at least a certain amount of attention in case it's actually important, so the disturbance/irritation factor is higher

 

[mtmikethom]

On the Elizabeth line I find amusing or perhaps annoying on Heathrow bound trains is the “Oyster (etc) is not valid beyond West Drayton” which those trains don't serve makes think are you on the right train!

 

[swt_passenger]

On the Elizabeth line I find amusing or perhaps annoying on Heathrow bound trains is the “Oyster (etc) is not valid beyond West Drayton” which those trains don't serve makes think are you on the right train!

Makes some sense if you’re at a point where you can still change onto the other route?

 

[island]

Makes some sense if you’re at a point where you can still change onto the other route?

Not really. Last point to change is Hayes & Harlington, and the train from there towards Reading will still have more stops in the zones.

 

[ALEMASTER]

Part of the experience of modern rail travel is being nagged to death - do this, don't do that, report the other etc etc via station announcements, train announcements, posters, TV screens and of course lots of other noise pollution on train from the PA system, people put earphones in to block it all out!

 

[david1212]

There is an issue for those of us who are deaf, in order to hear we have to concentrate a lot harder which creates stress and fatigue, and then you are left with maybe one important announcement amongst a sea. of to be honest. rubbish.

Add to that the variable audio quality, external background noise and a good proportion are unintelligible even if I concentrate.
......

Correct.

Now a computer monitor is the standard both at stations and on train rather then dot matrix displays, sometimes scrolling, more information can be displayed at the same time and there is much more flexibility over the information that is displayed.

The shortcoming is getting the information updated to the live situation e.g. cancellation, delays, onward travel arrangements.

A few years ago the first train of my journey ran late so the second train was the one after I had planned. This too ran late so a connection to the third was missed. I thought my best option was to stay on the second train to the next stopping station after where the connection was to be made then walk home. However it was announced that from the connection station taxis would be arranged. I almost missed this, only hearing it once the train had stopped. If the train had a screen or even the fitted edited dot matrix display edited with this information starting after the previous station before the connection station I would have been prepared to leave the train.

 

[Purple Train]

Not really. Last point to change is Hayes & Harlington, and the train from there towards Reading will still have more stops in the zones.

Well, one!

 

[Craig1122]

Even that's a push. Any time during disruption when you're instructed to run fast and skip out intermediate stops, you can pretty much guarantee you'll be questioned "Why didn't we stop at X"?

I had a woman angrily berate me for "not stopping at Vauxhall" a few weeks ago on a delayed service running fast from Waterloo to Motspur Park, despite me making five or six announcements in the platform at Waterloo and another once we'd departed. She then had the cheek to accuse me of not making any announcements.

Not saying everyone listens but one issue on SWR is that the manual PA's on a lot of the 455/458 fleet cab be inaudible. In particular a lot of 458's seem to have a problem with the microphone as the auto announcements are perfect but then you'll only get every 2nd or 3rd word of a manual one.

Personally I can tune out the auto announcements so I only want a manual one if there's a problem. There's one SWR guard who likes the sound of her own voice so much that on one occasion she was constantly making announcements all the way from Waterloo to Clapham Junction. It's incredibly wearing if you want a peaceful journey home or just want to watch TV/listen to a podcast.

 

[AJW12]

SWR is one of the worst for it. I regularly pick up the Reading services at Clapham and after being told which station we're at, where the train is going, what the next station is, and what to do if you see something that doesn't look right (and occasionally what you'll get fined if you don't have a ticket), the guard seemingly needs to then make another announcement to justify his presence, listing all the intermediate calling points (especially superfluous in the morning when half the train empties out at Richmond!) and announcing the next station again.

More often than not it's why I don't pause my music to listen to anything because yeah - it's just a bombardment!

 

[Mikw]

I hear Julie Berry's voice more than anyone in my own family........

 

[sheff1]

In the UK we take a more risk averse approach towards these matters than many other countries, and the railway is no different in that respect. Whether we should adopt that stance is ultimately a value judgement, but a clear benefit of our approach is that we do live in an extremely “safe” country in global terms, as you realise when you travel to even equivalent European countries such as France (and there are plenty of stats to back this up).

Over the last couple of months I have travelled by train in The Netherlands, Denmark & Spain. In all cases announcements advised the destination of the train and the next stop. In The Netherlands platform numbers for connecting trains were given when approaching interchange stations. Nowhere did they feel the need to tell me to keep my luggage in sight at all times and take it with me when alighting, take care due to wet weather, take care when alighting, babble on about the requirement to have a valid ticket etc etc.
No idea whether stats show these countries are less "safe" than here but despite the lack of announcements not once did I leave my luggage behind, slip on a wet surface, injure myself getting off a train or travel without a valid ticket. Of course, after many days of peaceful rail travel, as soon I was back on National Rail here the barrage started up again.

 

[Howardh]

Headphones and phones mean most people operate in their own little bubble. That said, I agree that announcement overload just makes the whole thing white noise that people zone out from.

I'm operating in that "bubble" BECAUSE of announcement overload!

It's bliss on a long distance Avanti as there's no need for constant announcements so the earphones aren't required and the hum of the electric can be enjoyed.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This requires AI which many firms disallow.

The Teams / Zoom auto captioning is a feature within the systems; it uses voice recognition software rather than actual AI. In Teams, any user can switch it on with one click - in Zoom it requires the host to remember to enable it before anyone else can view it.

A similar function could, feasibly, be used to allow the PIS on a train to show deaf users what a non-programmed announcement is saying, and it is usually these rather than the programmed announcements which are the most important announcements as they usually cover live disruption.

It's generally the programmed announcements which form the overload of announcements which are the subject of this thread.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I understand they are mandatory, it doesn't mean I agree with LNWR making it mandatory, it's overkill.

So which announcements so you cut?

 

[jagardner1984]

On my commute I see a majority now using (in some cases very expensive) headphones to block out the incessant noise. I can well understand this.

Obviously we all want to make travel as accessible as possible for as many people as we can - but there are “reasonably practicable” constraints here - do we install PIS in the back of each seat - perhaps that area has a majority of Gaelic speakers or has a large Chinese community - do we re-record all the announcements for them too ?

Moreover, I recall a tale of a fire a few years ago - there had been a fault with a hotel alarm system such that the fire alarm had been activated multiple times through the night. Later, there was a fire in the building, and several people did not evacuate, believing there was another false alarm, and choosing to “sit it out”. Some of those people were seriously hurt as a result … some might say leaving the building isolated for automatic (faulty) alarms - whilst leaving the building without fire detection, but obviously allowing the alarm to be raised via call point as it later was, might have led to a different outcome than the one generated by alert fatigue.

So I’m intrigued to know what behavioural shift some of these seek to achieve - were the passengers waiting next to the unattended rucksack with the ticking alarm clock in the top until such time as “see it say it sorted” clarified the next step for them ? Were the passengers on the icy platform who presumably in their journey to that place have some awareness of the weather thinking a Torvill and Dean routine by the platform edge of the passing express was wise until the voice from above advised them otherwise ? Did each train result in cart upon cart of lost property right until the moment that people were advised they should take the things they brought onto the train with them ?

I’d argue even for stop announcements - these could be simplified to the name of the station, that manual announcements would be preferable and that any other announcements should be do notify a service change or disruption only - with “quiet coaches” being exactly that - a place with no announcements bar disruption notifications.

I think all the above would make the announcements that are made massively more impactful, and it seems a good moment to acknowledge the work of platform assistance staff - who I have seen deal quickly and kindly with people who have very different needs in a few places lately. The railway would be better with more like them in it. They do far more to make the railway truly accessible than a series of queued audio files, which still exclude many passengers for a variety of reasons.

 

[Mountain Man]

On the underlying issue of being in the right carriage to get off. I do think more could be done especially at termini to make it more visible on the platform which is the 6th/8th/nth carriage is.

Even as something who is aware of the issue, it isn't as clear as it should be. And for less regular users, who don't always appreciate the criticality of info like knowing the train length from the board, more could be done. A few simple physical signs and boards on platforms like "For Station X, this carriage and forward" would have a big impact