ECML Closure - How can we prevent other routes becoming overwhelmed.

[Falcon1200]

As for St Pancras, you have one gateline for all EMR platforms! Not only that, but at the moments when they released the queues, they had no choice but to allow everyone through unchecked, when I was last there.

Surely the most serious issue, as discussed elsewhere, is at St Pancras? Where there are as you rightly say barriers! Enforcing mandatory reservations would reduce the numbers attempting to join trains there and the situation would therefore be much more manageable. Not so easy to enforce, I agree, at barrier-less Sheffield, but do not other stations served by the Sheffield trains (which would be those most overwhelmed by ECML closures) have barriers, eg Chesterfield, Derby and Leicester?

Are you a regular user of this route

Yes, in fact I was at St Pancras just last Friday.

have you travelled on the line during the ECML block?

No, I would adjust my plans to avoid that! (While accepting that many cannot, of course).

 

[Iskra]

That was paid for by NR (at great expense), because due to a planing error both the WCML and ECML had engineering work concurrently, and there were no direct London - Scotland services. The Liv St to Peterboro services were two each way, and my colleagues on board reported that a high proportion of the clientele had a prediction for anoraks.

Customers are paying for train tickets (at great expense). Perhaps a system where only Anytimes are available on significant routes blocked by engineering could pay for a reduced number of diversionary services, as well as lowering demand? However, TOC's don't seem to be incentivised to run trains; no doubt buses are cheaper and they can use the released train crews to prop up their service on other days, without actually needing to employ the right number of people. No doubt the staff aren't overly concerned either as they get the weekend off. If enough lines/blockades are using RRB's, the saving against operating trains must allow cross-subsidy of some additional diversionary trains from time to time at critical points. It seems like the TOC's and NR want it both ways; wanting the train revenue at the cost of a bus service.

 

[yorkie]

Surely the most serious issue, as discussed elsewhere, is at St Pancras? Where there are as you rightly say barriers!

Barriers which simply let everyone through, yes.

Enforcing mandatory reservations would reduce the numbers attempting to join trains there and the situation would therefore be much more manageable.

Good luck checking every reservation and escorting people directly to the booked train.

Not so easy to enforce, I agree, at barrier-less Sheffield, but do not other stations served by the Sheffield trains (which would be those most overwhelmed by ECML closures) have barriers, eg Chesterfield, Derby and Leicester?

Chesterfield no. Derby and Leicester do, but checking reservations there would be pointless as you can't be sure which train people are getting (and it does nothing for people making connections).

Yes, in fact I was at St Pancras just last Friday.

Then I am surprised you are coming up with such unworkable solutions.

No

Aha! So although you have used St Pancras, you've not been there when this issue has arisen; that explains a lot.

I would adjust my plans to avoid that! (While accepting that many cannot, of course).

Not everyone can afford an expensive London hotel! In any case for me, staying a night in London would not have solved the issue, as the line was still shut on Monday. Had the line been open Monday morning I would have considered paying for a hotel to get a direct train in the Morning. But that wasn't an option.

Your proposal is to strand people; it would not go down well, even if it was actually possible.

Would you also have made Corby trains reservations compulsory and checked reservations for those?

 

[Falcon1200]

Just one reply to your multi-faceted rebuttal; Given that most tickets show a destination it is perfectly possible to identify those travelling on reservation-only services from others, and it seemed to me that such a policy might be one (imperfect certainly) way of avoiding the chaos at St Pancras when Kings Cross is shut. Not sure any achievable alternatives have been suggested; What is your solution @yorkie?

 

[Snow1964]

In the past the Stratford-Stortford trains have also been extended to Cambridge, and vice versa, to provide more capacity. I think this has not been done since class 317/379 finished.

The main problem at Cambridge would be platform capacity for reversing ECML trains: when diverting, if all the through platforms are occupied, then ECML trains can use the through road.

Is it not possible to use Cambridge North (and in the future Cambridge South)

The main problem is similar to how car satnavs behave if a route is blocked or very slow, it will find next quickest alternative (even if that doesn't really have capacity).

The main problem is LNER chose to time their bus connections slower than the alternative rail route, so naturally it kept displaying the alternative rail route. The planner didn't know trains had run out of seats, it treats open seats on a 2car DMU with 150 seats same as old 3x4VEP formations with 1000 seats. It's basically programmed to presume operator will provide train with sufficient capacity so doesn't consider it.

 

[zwk500]

Is it not possible to use Cambridge North (and in the future Cambridge South)

Reversing LNER at Cambridge North would likely overload the services that did get through Cambridge from London, especially as people won't then change again at Cambridge itself. Cambridge South will not have reversal facilities when it opens, and I'm 99% sure there's no plan to add them at any later stage, regardless of what happens with EWR. Perhaps one option might be to send the Azumas round onto the Letchworth Branch ECS to reverse at the nearest opportunity (Foxton or Royston).

LNER certainly ran a trial train into Liverpool Street for a block recently (https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/lner-azuma-reaches-london-liverpool-street-station/64520.article) but there are very few extra paths available and therefore the few trains that would run would be extremely busy and rather so, so they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

[Snow1964]

Reversing LNER at Cambridge North would likely overload the services that did get through Cambridge from London, especially as people won't then change again at Cambridge itself. Cambridge South will not have reversal facilities when it opens, and I'm 99% sure there's no plan to add them at any later stage, regardless of what happens with EWR. Perhaps one option might be to send the Azumas round onto the Letchworth Branch ECS to reverse at the nearest opportunity (Foxton or Royston).

LNER certainly ran a trial train into Liverpool Street for a block recently (https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/lner-azuma-reaches-london-liverpool-street-station/64520.article) but there are very few extra paths available and therefore the few trains that would run would be extremely busy and rather so, so they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

You don't need to get to Liverpool Street, you need to be able to get to a tube or train connection, be it Seven Sisters or Tottenham Hale (neither ideal), or better still down Lee Valley to Stratford (Elizabeth line, DLR, Central, Jubilee line etc). I am not sure if it's still possible, but used to be able to use those platforms as a loop (via Chanelsea ?) without blocking the GE main lines, so don't even need to occupy platforms for more than few minutes before returning. Can wait time at stations with extra rush hour platforms (Tottenham, Harlow etc)

 

[Failed Unit]

You don't need to get to Liverpool Street, you need to be able to get to a tube or train connection, be it Seven Sisters or Tottenham Hale (neither ideal), or better still down Lee Valley to Stratford (Elizabeth line, DLR, Central, Jubilee line etc). I am not sure if it's still possible, but used to be able to use those platforms as a loop (via Chanelsea ?) without blocking the GE main lines, so don't even need to occupy platforms for more than few minutes before returning

They have done this before, with turning around at Finsbury Park - It didn't work very well as the station isn't designed for lots of people with heavy baggage. Admittidly this was before Finsbury Park underground modification was complete. I think they would need to shut of the spiral staircases.

But if platform capacity was avialable off peak - surely this is exactly the kind of load a 10 car 720 is designed for, if LNER could get to Cambridge.

 

[30907]

The main problem is LNER chose to time their bus connections slower than the alternative rail route, so naturally it kept displaying the alternative rail route.

An offpeak car journey PBO-BDM takes an hour, so by RRB 1h10 would be tight but possibly doable.
10min would have made no difference to journey planners - Leeds-STP would still have been an hour quicker via Sheffield, and York 45min.

 

[zwk500]

You don't need to get to Liverpool Street, you need to be able to get to a tube or train connection, be it Seven Sisters or Tottenham Hale (neither ideal), or better still down Lee Valley to Stratford (Elizabeth line, DLR, Central, Jubilee line etc). I am not sure if it's still possible, but used to be able to use those platforms as a loop (via Chanelsea ?) without blocking the GE main lines, so don't even need to occupy platforms for more than few minutes before returning. Can wait time at stations with extra rush hour platforms (Tottenham, Harlow etc)

For reference a Class 800 is 130m long for the 5-Car, so 260m for a 10-car and 234m long for a 9-Car.

Terminating Seven Sisters would be interesting as they're less than 190m long. Diverting the entire ECML into a succession of 5-car Azumas or waiting for the back 2.5 cars to filter through one door would be horrendous.

Tottenham Hale is 254m long in the up and 250m in the down so a 9-Car Azuma could be fully platformed (but 2x5 would have at least one door off the end), but then you've got to give a fully packed out train time to get in and out through single-width end doors. To get to Stratford or the nearest loop you then would be conflicting with moves on/off the Meridian Water single at Coppermill Jn, which isn't going to be fun. If you do get through that you'd want to run to Stratford rather than dive into Orient Way , but then you'll need to slot in between the Overground services using 11 (300+m, yay!) and 12 (182m, ah...), and then the GEML<>NLL freights and NLL Overground as you continue round the loop. Further, you'd only have the opportunity to reverse a single train at a time so you're maximum service frequency would be determined by how quickly you can get the unit heading back north. Less of a concern at Stratford where trains could parade around the loop, but still a consideration to balance against Liverpool Street platform occupancy. Or you can avoid Coppermill Jn conflicts by turning right towards Hackney Downs, at which point your next reversal opportunity is... Liverpool Street.

 

[Magdalia]

Is it not possible to use Cambridge North (and in the future Cambridge South)

Cambridge South definitely not. Cambridge North I'm not sure, but if reversals are allowed they would have to be in platform 2, blocking the down line for other trains.

I have applied a bit of creative thinking to this, having noted that all of the GN services to/from Royston on Monday and Tuesday reversed in platform 2, leaving platform 1 free.

My suggestion is LNER running up to Cambridge and terminating in platform 7/8, giving cross platform interchange for Liverpool Street. The train then runs empty to Royston to reverse in platform 1. The key part of the plan is that when the train comes back empty it starts as a passenger service at Cambridge North not Cambridge. This has 2 advantages, no platform occupation is required at Cambridge so the empty train can use the through road, and there is cross platform interchange from Liverpool Street terminating trains at Cambridge North.

I expect there is some flaw in the plan that I have not spotted, what do the railway professionals think?

 

[YorkRailFan]

A longer term fix would be to build HS2 Eastern which would elevate pressure off all lines.

 

[Clarence Yard]

They have done this before, with turning around at Finsbury Park - It didn't work very well as the station isn't designed for lots of people with heavy baggage. Admittidly this was before Finsbury Park underground modification was complete. I think they would need to shut of the spiral staircases.

But if platform capacity was avialable off peak - surely this is exactly the kind of load a 10 car 720 is designed for, if LNER could get to Cambridge.

Only because the idiots tried to use Finsbury Park as a road/rail and intercity rail/tube interchange point.

If they had done what BR did once in the late 1970’s/early 1980’s and run the equivalent of extra 6 car 313’s on a Moorgate to Finsbury Park, ECS to Ferme Park and across the flyover to come back to Finsbury Park, all designed to take the punters to/from Highbury & Islington, it would have worked much better. Cross platform interchange at both Finsbury Park and Highbury. The HST sets, iirc, went forward to KXFT to cross over and come back

BR used to ask for volunteers to assist with transferring luggage from HST to 313 and vice versa. Once I had a 12 hour Sunday at Finsbury Park Station and I earned far more in (unsolicited) weaselling tips than I ever did for that Sunday turn!

Nowadays there are too many punters trying to fit in too few trains so it is never going to be easy to accommodate the passenger flows, especially on a Sunday. Someone is always going to have to get shafted.

 

[Bald Rick]

For reference a Class 800 is 130m long for the 5-Car, so 260m for a 10-car and 234m long for a 9-Car.

Terminating Seven Sisters would be interesting as they're less than 190m long. Diverting the entire ECML into a succession of 5-car Azumas or waiting for the back 2.5 cars to filter through one door would be horrendous.

Would have been even more interesting with Spurs at home (as they were on Saturday) and the Victoria Line up the spout (as it was on Saturday)

 

[mr_moo]

Actually, Cambridge South does have some reversing facilities being built in.

Northbound trains coming from the Royston branch will be able to terminate in platforms 3 or 4 and return Southwards back towards Royston (but not Shelford).
Northbound trains from Shelford will be able to enter any platform. From P3/4 they can go South to Royston, and from P1/2 they can go South to either branch.

There are no reversing facilities for trains approaching from the North.

 

[Snow1964]

The French are taking a different approach to the recent ECML closure. The whole LGV Sud-Est is being closed for 4 days for upgrades to power supplies and signalling.

They have avoided summer holiday season, ski season and school holidays, picking dates in November.

Starting Friday 8 Nov at 23:00 to Wednesday 13 Nov 04:00

Trains will run (much slower) but by the classic tracks.

The main difference to UK approach is they are advertising the closure 9 months before to encourage those who can to change travel dates, complete opposite to LNER approach who opted for the school half term when they knew long distance travel and leisure was likely to be higher, and hid the long planned closure from the public until few weeks before (after they might have booked tickets for attractions or hotels etc)

The other main difference is the lack of bus substitutions, will run trains even if by roundabout diversionary routes, something LNER probably needs to learn.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other main difference is the lack of bus substitutions, will run trains even if by roundabout diversionary routes, something LNER probably needs to learn.

LNER is arguably better at that than others (cough Lumo) because they have enough units with diesel engines.

 

[yorksrob]

This is probably pie in the sky, but if they electrified between Peterborough and Ely, perhaps diversion to Liverpool Street could be more of a thing.

 

[The exile]

I have also seen photo's of WCML services in St Pancras after getting dragged from Nuneaton.

Think this was a pretty rare event - certainly it caused a lot of hoo-hah/interest when it was done in 1992. Incidentally, when I did it the drag was only Bedford-Nuneaton - the wires were used south of Bedford.

 

[YorkRailFan]

This is probably pie in the sky, but if they electrified between Peterborough and Ely, perhaps diversion to Liverpool Street could be more of a thing.

Seeing as this is the speculation sub forum. If EWR ever reaches Peterborough and Cambridge, could trains divert at/near Peterborough onto EWR and then the existing WCML (not HS2) from Bletchley into Euston?

 

[Bald Rick]

complete opposite to LNER approach who opted for the school half term when they knew long distance travel and leisure was likely to be higher

But commuting lower, and they are far more commuters than long distance passengers on that section, so fewest passengers inconvenienced.

 

[Snow1964]

But commuting lower, and they are far more commuters than long distance passengers on that section, so fewest passengers inconvenienced.

Are you sure, or is that just heresay ?

From what I heard all the long distance passengers from north of Doncaster were changing for trains via Sheffield etc, but the parts of the route still open nearer London (Doncaster-Peterborough etc) was like a ghost town. I heard EMR trains were overflowing, but alternative trains to Corby and on Cambridge line were not especially busy.

Which suggests inconvenienced more long distance travellers (who needed to travel) than commuters that had option to replan.

 

[Bald Rick]

Are you sure, or is that just heresay ?

Yes, I’m sure, knowing the people who arranged the work, and what they did in terms of research.

Bear in mind that the dates chosen were when it was half term at the south end (= lower commuter numbers, including school traffic), but not further north (so no leisure traffic ‘bump’ on the non commuter railway).

 

[yorksrob]

Seeing as this is the speculation sub forum. If EWR ever reaches Peterborough and Cambridge, could trains divert at/near Peterborough onto EWR and then the existing WCML (not HS2) from Bletchley into Euston?

Presumably - assuming they do actually electrify it.

 

[The Planner]

Seeing as this is the speculation sub forum. If EWR ever reaches Peterborough and Cambridge, could trains divert at/near Peterborough onto EWR and then the existing WCML (not HS2) from Bletchley into Euston?

Yes, but the time penalty would be so large a bus would beat it by some margin, even before you get to the "people would rather stay on a train"

 

[A0]

This is probably pie in the sky, but if they electrified between Peterborough and Ely, perhaps diversion to Liverpool Street could be more of a thing.

Good luck finding paths on the West Anglia mainline (WAML) without destroying the GA passenger service. Why should long distance passengers who will be occasional travellers take precedence over the regular commuters who use and rely on the WAML to get to school, work etc ?

Seeing as this is the speculation sub forum. If EWR ever reaches Peterborough and Cambridge, could trains divert at/near Peterborough onto EWR and then the existing WCML (not HS2) from Bletchley into Euston?

Only if you want a scenic tour of Cambridgeshire, Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire, that's before you try to find paths from Bletchley to Euston, traincrew cleared for it etc etc. It would be at least 50% slower than a replacement coach would be.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Yes, but the time penalty would be so large a bus would beat it by some margin, even before you get to the "people would rather stay on a train"

Wow, didn't expect it to be so slow.

 

[yorksrob]

Good luck finding paths on the West Anglia mainline (WAML) without destroying the GA passenger service. Why should long distance passengers who will be occasional travellers take precedence over the regular commuters who use and rely on the WAML to get to school, work etc ?



Only if you want a scenic tour of Cambridgeshire, Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire, that's before you try to find paths from Bletchley to Euston, traincrew cleared for it etc etc. It would be at least 50% slower than a replacement coach would be.

I'd still prefer a direct train, as would (I suspect) a large proportion of passengers.

 

[A0]

I'd still prefer a direct train, as would (I suspect) a large proportion of passengers.

Maybe so - but fortunately the rail network isn't run for the convenience of a minority of refuseniks who don't like buses. And if there needs to be engineering work, the balance needs to be struck between impacting those who's travel is regular and consistent - which the commuter networks are, compared to those who's travel is discretionary and has less impact if their journey is disrupted which will be true of many longer distance travellers. The rail network are, quite rightly, ensuring the larger number are not disrupted - and there are more people travelling Cambridge - London than London - Leeds / York / Newcastle on a daily basis.

Wow, didn't expect it to be so slow.

To be fair a quick look at Google Maps makes it pretty clear.

Peterborough - Kings Cross is about 85 miles.

Peterborough - Cambridge is about 50 miles, Cambridge - Bletchley is about 45 miles and Bletchley to Euston about 50 miles - so 145 miles compared to 85 miles.

On existing journey times - Peterborough - Cambridge takes about an hour, Bletchley to Euston about 30 mins so that's 90 mins on existing lines compared to 50 mins Peterborough to Kings Cross. That's before you add in Cambridge - Bletchley which won't be less than 40 mins.

 

[YorkRailFan]

To be fair a quick look at Google Maps makes it pretty clear.

Peterborough - Kings Cross is about 85 miles.

Peterborough - Cambridge is about 50 miles, Cambridge - Bletchley is about 45 miles and Bletchley to Euston about 50 miles - so 145 miles compared to 85 miles.

On existing journey times - Peterborough - Cambridge takes about an hour, Bletchley to Euston about 30 mins so that's 90 mins on existing lines compared to 50 mins Peterborough to Kings Cross. That's before you add in Cambridge - Bletchley which won't be less than 40 mins.

I did think it would be quicker than a Rail Replacement Bus, what really surprised me is that it isn't.