LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Narrowgauge725]

Ticket price to and from Berwick Upon Tweed are now very expensive compared with when we could buy off peak tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ticket price to and from Berwick Upon Tweed are now very expensive compared with when we could buy off peak tickets.

You might find a useful little Scottish station nearby in need of a bit of an uplift in journey statistics.

 

[yorksrob]

It's not, because you have the complexity of permitted routes and the likes in a walk-up system.

Which would be a lot less complex if train companies didn't have carte blanche to faff around with route validities. This is another area which needs a reset.

 

[Dr Day]

Which would be a lot less complex if train companies didn't have carte blanche to faff around with route validities. This is another area which needs a reset.

Hopefully an area which can be improved under GBR, with a more holistic common-sense approach to National Rail revenue overall, rather than individual TOCs all fighting with each other to maximise their individual figures. Alas I'm not holding my breath - everything so far despite DfT taking most of the revenue still seems to be pointing to TOCs continuing to work independently. There are still some valid cases where it does make sense, however, to have a fare differential between a 'slow' train and 'express'.

But moving back on topic - the argument on a national basis could still be a bit like the old fares baskets - "we are putting up fares on LNER by more than average as we believe the market can bear it to hold down fares elsewhere where it can't".

 

[Mainline421]

It's not, because you have the complexity of permitted routes and the likes in a walk-up system.

Again, if it is valid on the same trains and can be sold with an itinerary, then fining people for taking other trains doesn't make anything simpler. Quite the opposite, in a small minority of cases genuine mistakes will happen, and are less likely to be an issue.

 

[Krokodil]

It's not, because you have the complexity of permitted routes and the likes in a walk-up system.

How many people get chinged for going on the wrong route with an Any Permitted (or route ".") ticket? I'd say that it was mostly just those who were trying it on.

 

[Haywain]

DfT taking most of the revenue

Revenue goes to the Treasury, not DfT.

 

[Fermiboson]

How many people get chinged for going on the wrong route with an Any Permitted (or route ".") ticket? I'd say that it was mostly just those who were trying it on.

Here I have a story from the old, innocent days of 2021.

I had just arrived in the UK, and had obtained a GWR train map. Not knowing anything otherwise about the UK railways, I had foolishly assumed GWR was the only train company west of London. So, holding an Oxford to Portsmouth any route return, I took the most direct route shown on the GWR network map - via Westbury. This is not a valid route, nor was it a speedy route (though the West Country branch lines were quite scenic).

The RPI found me south of Trowbridge. He was quite bewildered as to why I would be going anywhere close to where I was, and asked for my address. Fortunately, he had caught me at a time when I was staring absentmindedly at said GWR network map, so my plea of complete ignorance was plausible, and he left me with a note instructing the staff at Portsmouth to alert me to the existence of Basingstoke and SWR on the return journey.

I also know of a more recent example of a relative going from Oxford to Birmingham via Bicester after two consecutive XC trains were cancelled, and Pontefract to Sheffield via Leeds because of a similar Northern cancellation. To people unfamiliar with the country, or with the concept of there being a permitted route at all, it can be very easy to just grab a random map and assume any line you can draw on it is fine.

 

[Krokodil]

To people unfamiliar with the country, or with the concept of there being a permitted route at all, it can be very easy to just grab a random map and assume any line you can draw on it is fine.

So you didn't get chinged and nor did your relative? I maintain that few people get chinged for taking a reasonable - if not permitted - route on an Any Permitted ticket.

People do however get chinged for boarding the 09:51 to Manchester Airport with a ticket for the 09:55. Frequently.

The simplest ticketing system is one where a ticket from A to B is a ticket from A to B. No time restrictions, no need to split to get a sensible price, and no route restrictions (within reason, Liverpool to Manchester via Glasgow is not a reasonable route).

 

[Hadders]

So you didn't get chinged and nor did your relative? I maintain that few people get chinged for taking a reasonable - if not permitted - route on an Any Permitted ticket.

People do however get chinged for boarding the 09:51 to Manchester Airport with a ticket for the 09:55. Frequently.

The simplest ticketing system is one where a ticket from A to B is a ticket from A to B. No time restrictions, no need to split to get a sensible price, and no route restrictions (within reason, Liverpool to Manchester via Glasgow is not a reasonable route).

If Anytime tickets were the only ones available it would result is massive fares increases for many people.

For example London to Manchester is £369.30 Anytime or £109.00 Off-Peak. What would the proposed new Anytime fare be and how many people would face a massive increase.
How would you manage capacity on the busiest trains?

 

[yorksrob]

Here I have a story from the old, innocent days of 2021.

I had just arrived in the UK, and had obtained a GWR train map. Not knowing anything otherwise about the UK railways, I had foolishly assumed GWR was the only train company west of London. So, holding an Oxford to Portsmouth any route return, I took the most direct route shown on the GWR network map - via Westbury. This is not a valid route, nor was it a speedy route (though the West Country branch lines were quite scenic).

The RPI found me south of Trowbridge. He was quite bewildered as to why I would be going anywhere close to where I was, and asked for my address. Fortunately, he had caught me at a time when I was staring absentmindedly at said GWR network map, so my plea of complete ignorance was plausible, and he left me with a note instructing the staff at Portsmouth to alert me to the existence of Basingstoke and SWR on the return journey.

I also know of a more recent example of a relative going from Oxford to Birmingham via Bicester after two consecutive XC trains were cancelled, and Pontefract to Sheffield via Leeds because of a similar Northern cancellation. To people unfamiliar with the country, or with the concept of there being a permitted route at all, it can be very easy to just grab a random map and assume any line you can draw on it is fine.

I've long said that there should be full network maps at all stations, however the industry hasn't managed it.

 

[ainsworth74]

and he left me with a note instructing the staff at Portsmouth to alert me to the existence of Basingstoke and SWR on the return journey

This really made me chuckle so thanks for that

 

[Fermiboson]

So you didn't get chinged and nor did your relative? I maintain that few people get chinged for taking a reasonable - if not permitted - route on an Any Permitted ticket.

People do however get chinged for boarding the 09:51 to Manchester Airport with a ticket for the 09:55. Frequently.

The simplest ticketing system is one where a ticket from A to B is a ticket from A to B. No time restrictions, no need to split to get a sensible price, and no route restrictions (within reason, Liverpool to Manchester via Glasgow is not a reasonable route).

I was going to get chinged, but presumably because I looked young and my behaviour matched my excuse the RPI let me off. My relative did not get their ticket checked.

Nevertheless back to the point, time restrictions are not necessarily the problem; overly restrictive and confusing time restrictions are. If, for example, off peak time was set universally at pre 0900 departure for all routes not via London and pre 0900 arrival into London otherwise, I doubt very many people would use the wrong ticket for the wrong time by mistake. For advances, a possible solution could be clearer indication of the train in question, perhaps by displaying the headcode prominently on passenger information boards, or putting advance platforming data on the ticket itself.

I don’t think it’s a good idea to entirely remove advances altogether. Cheap options, etc. are valuable to have. The situation would however undoubtedly be much fairer if the industry was actually honest in its messaging.

I have a previous speculative thread on possible ways to simplify the routeing guide, and the conclusion is more or less that it’s impossible to establish any rules for “reasonable” in generality. Is Hull to Sheffield reasonable via York? Is Bradford to Southport reasonable via Liverpool? Is Carlisle to Edinburgh reasonable via Newcastle? York to Wakefield via Pontefract? All of these routes could be faster than the typical/direct routes, if interchange times line up badly and/or there is disruption. Not to mention BoJ restrictions - which stations should be set to accept a BoJ from a given return ticket?

 

[ainsworth74]

Edit: LNER are on strike tomorrow not today so there are some journey opportunities later in the day that allow usage of the Off-Peak Single. However the general point I believe still stands.

Proving very difficult to buy good value fares today due to the way that LNER is operating with reservation compulsory flags and making no seat reservations available. If you want to go from Middlesbrough to Edinburgh today (which is perfectly possible even with the ASLEF strike on LNER) the only fares available are a 1st class Advance at £90.80 and it's only available on one of five different journey opportunities today. If you cannot travel on the 1025 then it is not currently possible to buy a ticket.



(Image shows five journeys possible from Middlesbrough to Edinburgh today indicating that the cheapest fare is the 1st AP at £90.80 and is not available on any of the other journeys. A second image shows that even the 1st Anytime Single (£137.20) is not valid on any trains other than the 1025)

Of course if you go to the ticket office at Middlesbrough they will sell you an Off-Peak Single at £48.20 valid on any of the five possible journeys. By all means mark the trains as "Reservation Recommended" but to mark them compulsory when they're nothing of the sort is just yet another way that LNER are trying to squeeze even more moeny out of passengers.

What a shoddy outfit LNER have become in recent years. Really disappointing as they used to be (in their various guises) one of the best, they had ups and downs of course, but consistently one of the best.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti were doing that the other week, I noticed - on a fairly quiet (I could see that from the displays at New St) service to Euston they weren't releasing any short distance reservations so it would show as "sold out" if you tried to buy New St-International, Cov or Rugby but would sell MKC or Euston. That's very naughty practice.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

but to mark them compulsory when they're nothing of the sort is just yet another way that LNER are trying to squeeze even more moeny out of passengers.

Not very customer friendly, but if squeezing revenue is indeed the motivation for it, does it even result in more money being squeezed? How many discretionary travellers between Middlesbrough and Edinburgh will cough for the sums being demanded for the online booking and how many will chose a different mode or to simply not travel? I suspect very few will realise that a £48.20 ticket can simply be purchased at the ticket office.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a shoddy outfit LNER have become in recent years. Really disappointing as they used to be (in their various guises) one of the best, they had ups and downs of course, but consistently one of the best.

Completely agreed. I can, as I've said before, be swayed on actual compulsory reservations done properly, but this is an absolute incompetent mess.

Not very customer friendly, but if squeezing revenue is indeed the motivation for it, does it even result in more money being squeezed? How many discretionary travellers between Middlesbrough and Edinburgh will cough for the sums being demanded for the online booking and how many will chose a different mode or to simply not travel? I suspect very few will realise that a £48.20 ticket can simply be purchased at the ticket office.

With Middlesbrough not being the most well-off of places, I suspect the number of those first class tickets sold will be very round - 0.

 

[DanNCL]

Proving very difficult to buy good value fares today due to the way that LNER is operating with reservation compulsory flags and making no seat reservations available. If you want to go from Middlesbrough to Edinburgh today (which is perfectly possible even with the ASLEF strike on LNER) the only fares available are a 1st class Advance at £90.80 and it's only available on one of five different journey opportunities today. If you cannot travel on the 1025 then it is not currently possible to buy a ticket.

View attachment 155800View attachment 155801

(Image shows five journeys possible from Middlesbrough to Edinburgh today indicating that the cheapest fare is the 1st AP at £90.80 and is not available on any of the other journeys. A second image shows that even the 1st Anytime Single (£137.20) is not valid on any trains other than the 1025)

Of course if you go to the ticket office at Middlesbrough they will sell you an Off-Peak Single at £48.20 valid on any of the five possible journeys. By all means mark the trains as "Reservation Recommended" but to mark them compulsory when they're nothing of the sort is just yet another way that LNER are trying to squeeze even more moeny out of passengers.

What a shoddy outfit LNER have become in recent years. Really disappointing as they used to be (in their various guises) one of the best, they had ups and downs of course, but consistently one of the best.

Could specifying a change at Newcastle force the journey planner to offer the off peak fare? That should show itineraries using TPE north of Newcastle which don’t have the compulsory reservation marker.

I agree it’s all utterly dire and a lot worse than they used to be. Hopefully the wider public will start to see through it, walk away en-masse and force LNER to fix all of these issues to win people back.

 

[island]

Avanti were doing that the other week, I noticed - on a fairly quiet (I could see that from the displays at New St) service to Euston they weren't releasing any short distance reservations so it would show as "sold out" if you tried to buy New St-International, Cov or Rugby but would sell MKC or Euston. That's very naughty practice.

Even on an Avanti Only ticket which couldn't be used on local trains?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even on an Avanti Only ticket which couldn't be used on local trains?

Not on sale. The trains were showing as sold out. If you already had the ticket obviously you could use it, but you couldn't buy it. This is very naughty practice and it looks like LNER might be up to the same here...

 

[Wallsendmag]

Proving very difficult to buy good value fares today due to the way that LNER is operating with reservation compulsory flags and making no seat reservations available. If you want to go from Middlesbrough to Edinburgh today (which is perfectly possible even with the ASLEF strike on LNER) the only fares available are a 1st class Advance at £90.80 and it's only available on one of five different journey opportunities today. If you cannot travel on the 1025 then it is not currently possible to buy a ticket.

View attachment 155800View attachment 155801

(Image shows five journeys possible from Middlesbrough to Edinburgh today indicating that the cheapest fare is the 1st AP at £90.80 and is not available on any of the other journeys. A second image shows that even the 1st Anytime Single (£137.20) is not valid on any trains other than the 1025)

Of course if you go to the ticket office at Middlesbrough they will sell you an Off-Peak Single at £48.20 valid on any of the five possible journeys. By all means mark the trains as "Reservation Recommended" but to mark them compulsory when they're nothing of the sort is just yet another way that LNER are trying to squeeze even more moeny out of passengers.

What a shoddy outfit LNER have become in recent years. Really disappointing as they used to be (in their various guises) one of the best, they had ups and downs of course, but consistently one of the best.

It the end of Easter holidays and the day before a strike, I would expect the trains to be very very full.

 

[paul1609]

Indeed. Rail transport is the backstop for middle and long distance public transport if you need to get somewhere in a hurry. That is a public service consideration and it needs to be maintained in return for taxpayer support.

Except it really isnt. Living on the north end of Romney Marsh (taking Appledore Station as my starting point) (an extreme case) rail is quicker to Central London, road is then quicker to nearly every other destination (there are a few city centre exceptions)until you reach the Scottish Borders where air takes over. By the time you reach the Central Belt Air is significantly faster for real journeys and wipes the floor for anywhere north of there.

 

[yorksrob]

Except it really isnt. Living on the north end of Romney Marsh (taking Appledore Station as my starting point) (an extreme case) rail is quicker to Central London, road is then quicker to nearly every other destination (there are a few city centre exceptions)until you reach the Scottish Borders where air takes over. By the time you reach the Central Belt Air is significantly faster for real journeys and wipes the floor for anywhere north of there.

Yes, but not in terms of public transport (see my post you quoted).

The many millions of people who don't have access to a car at any given time still need to undertake medium to long distance journeys.

 

[paul1609]

Yes, but not in terms of public transport (see my post you quoted).

The many millions of people who don't have access to a car at any given time still need to undertake medium to long distance journeys.

indeed, i was broadly happy with the level of subsidy I was paying to the rail industry pre-pandemic from my tax. I'm not happy with the level of subsidy being paid for primarlily leisure travel since. I would prefer my tax being transferred to health, education and even defence. So I support LNERs changes and hope that they will be rolled out nationwide. I acknowledge that my preferences may not align with yours.

 

[yorksrob]

indeed, i was broadly happy with the level of subsidy I was paying to the rail industry pre-pandemic from my tax. I'm not happy with the level of subsidy being paid for primarlily leisure travel since. I would prefer my tax being transferred to health, education and even defence. So I support LNERs changes and hope that they will be rolled out nationwide. I acknowledge that my preferences may not align with yours.

That's a personal view and you're entitled to it.

I'd personally rather we spent money on maintaining the current rail service and growing the business, and trimmed the billions lost through the fuel duty freeze instead.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

I'd personally rather we spent money on maintaining the current rail service and growing the business, and trimmed the billions lost through the fuel duty freeze instead.

Is it a service - which requires public support. Or is it a business - which should stand on its own two feet?

 

[yorksrob]

Is it a service - which requires public support. Or is it a business - which should stand on its own two feet?

It's a service which requires public support.

They tried the other in the 1960's and it didn't work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a service which requires public support.

Is LNER profitable at the moment when taking into account its share of infrastructure costs?

indeed, i was broadly happy with the level of subsidy I was paying to the rail industry pre-pandemic from my tax. I'm not happy with the level of subsidy being paid for primarlily leisure travel since. I would prefer my tax being transferred to health, education and even defence. So I support LNERs changes and hope that they will be rolled out nationwide. I acknowledge that my preferences may not align with yours.

It could put the fares up without making things less flexible. If it has to increase fares I'd rather that.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Trying to identify a "profitable core" which CAN stand on its own feet has also been considered more recently than the 60's. Serpell thought that such a "commercial" network existed.

It also identified a somewhat larger network, where the cost of non-closure could be notionally balanced by not needing to provide alternative capacity on the road network.

Neither would have been a particularly useful national network and swathes of closures of commuter routes in well heeled parts was not acceptable to the Tory government.

 

[yorksrob]

Is LNER profitable at the moment when taking into account its share of infrastructure costs?



It could put the fares up without making things less flexible. If it has to increase fares I'd rather that.

I'm not sure, however I view the network as a whole as a service, whether one bit or another of it happens to be in surplus at any given time.