If it happens, not before time, though New Street would be better, giving far more possible connections. At the times when the sleepers would be in the Birmingham area, New Street can't be terribly busy, so pathing shouldn't be difficult. You might have to wait a while to/from your connecting train but that could still be more convenient than travelling via London or connecting at Crewe.(delete if someone has already said) Caledonian Sleeper has applied for a stop at Birmingham International.
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22.05.2024 - Caledonian Sleeper Limited - Section 17 - 9th SA - Closes 22.06.2024 is the named application
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Caledonian Sleeper
- Thread starter Essexman
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Peter Sarf
Established Member
What are platform lengths like at Birmingham New Street for a sleeper ?.
Then again how long are the platforms at Birmingham International ?.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
International also allows for diversion via Bescot if there's any engineering works between New Street and Wolverhampton doesn't it?
danbarjon
Member
In the application they have specified they have arranged how it would work with opening selective doors.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Also just to clarify they only want to stop the Inverness train.
danchester
Member
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- 3 Oct 2018
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- 98
Seems hard to argue with their arguments in the application:
If their data show people there is demand and are travelling to Crewe to board then this seems like a logical forward-thinking step. Hopefully it will take a cars off the road/flyers out of the air.
Not long enough but, they are keen to point out, few are:
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Presumably the reason for International rather than New St is that blocking the New St throat with the back end of the train wouldn't be acceptable?
Seems a good plan to me. It has been talked about before, nice to see it happening.
Seems a good plan to me. It has been talked about before, nice to see it happening.
International: 281/283/304/303/303m platforms 1-5
New Street:
Both from https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs March 24/London North Western (South) Sectional Appendix March 2024.pdf
Euston platform 1 is 398m from the same source.
Full 16 coach sleeper consist plus locomotive is ~380m today.
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Deafdoggie
Established Member
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- 3,414
Do we know if this is instead of Crewe, or in addition to Crewe?
danbarjon
Member
In the application I couldn't see them mentioning a withdrawal of the Crewe stop but they could announce something different if the Birmingham International stop gets approved.
sprinterguy
Veteran Member
Yeah, it ensures that the rakes are cycled through Polmadie depot, Alstom's primary maintenance facility for the Caledonian Sleeper fleet.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Very interesting.
I see New Street has 10 out of 13 platforms longer than the longest at Internationals which surprised me. But unsurprisingly the train is still longer.
BUT I suppose having the rear overhanging the junctions to the East (maybe not ?) and West of International is less disruptive than doing the same at New Street (as @Bletchleyite says). Shame really as New Street offers the optimum in connections. I could only see it being alleviated if the tracks in the New Street approach tunnels are bi-directional meaning use of platform one would not be so bad. That is coupled with the fact that the sleepers are there well outside the peak.
Something that occurred to me is wondering how many passengers on the sleepers that (decades ago) ran between the South West and Scotland via Birmingham got on or off at Birmingham ?.
Is there a market waiting to be tapped there ?.
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I presume this would only apply to the Highlander, not the Lowlander (although I seem to recall that until sometime in the 1980s or early 90s there was a separate Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh sleeper)?(delete if someone has already said) Caledonian Sleeper has applied for a stop at Birmingham International.
Sale of access rights - Network Rail
All passenger and freight train operators who want to use our network require a track access contract, dealt with by our customer teams.
22.05.2024 - Caledonian Sleeper Limited - Section 17 - 9th SA - Closes 22.06.2024 is the named application
Do you know how soon CS is hoping to introduce the Birmingham International stop? I presume with the December 2024 timetable change.
If you click on the above link, scroll down and click on Current Track Access Consultations you will find the one for Caledonian Sleeper at the bottom of the list (albeit shown as closing 31st May rather than 22nd June), but if you then click on the link it contains links to various documents relating to the application. I can't find any actual reference to the Birmingham International application, though.
See https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo... 9th SA - Closes 22.06.2024/Form P 9th SA.pdf which is down there somewhere ….
Ah yes, now I see. It's on page 2 of that document, with Birmingham International in red with Polesworth crossed out because obviously it would no longer go via the Trent Valley.
I am fairly sure there is standage beyond some of the platforms at International, which may be enough to take the sleeper without completely blocking the line.
Not calling New Street also means engineering work would be less disruptive as the sleeper can still divert via Aston while serving international.
Not a big one. It's a slight shame they aren't getting the New St call from a SW/S Wales view as its another change to Int'l, but its also not a massive market given the competition from day trains, flights or overnight coaches.
Steve Harris
Member
I don't think there was a standalone Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh sleeper service. However, there certainly was a Bristol - Glasgow/Edinburgh sleeper service in 1988 (as I used it). The sleeper cars got added to a West Country (Plymouth/Paignton) - Scotland service at Bristol (Northbound) and of course this service called at Birmingham.
Anyway, getting back on topic, it's nice to see a TOC making their service more readily available to their West Midlands customers.
TheTallOne
Member
So all those people who were delayed got a lie-in?
Although those in the cheap seats might not be as comfortable with the delay?
Although those in the cheap seats might not be as comfortable with the delay?
alistairlees
Established Member
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It does. You need to login to your account.
I'm stating that people may not have made their booking themselves and/or not taken in all of the details at the time of booking and/or recalled all of that detail - rather different from the negligent carelessness that you present.
I'd suggest that signposting needs to be along the lines that others have suggested - giving clear directions as to when the train will be ready for boarding, where to wait at the station, and who should go to the lounge. Or, in other words, respect the fact that many passengers will be unsure of their environment and concerned about making their journey smooth and trouble free.
If I know it all, I can ignore it; if I don't, it will lead me and answer the questions I'm most likely to have before I go digging for the piece of paper/booking confirmation. Or, in other words, making it easy for customers.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
International has long term car parking, and good access from the wider West Midlands area.
Does the introduction of a Birmingham International stop mean an earlier departure from London / later arrival in London. Presumably about 30 minutes of additional travel time? On the other hand, should make the departure / arrival times more consistent for going via WCML and ECML.
I'd be surprised if it had that much, if any, impact - the Sleeper as-is (diversions aside) has a fair bit of slack in its timetable. Maybe 15 minutes, but I can't see it adding half an hour to the journey time.
I thought they didn’t go through Birmingham because it would get missed out too often for engineering work?(delete if someone has already said) Caledonian Sleeper has applied for a stop at Birmingham International.
Sale of access rights - Network Rail
All passenger and freight train operators who want to use our network require a track access contract, dealt with by our customer teams.
22.05.2024 - Caledonian Sleeper Limited - Section 17 - 9th SA - Closes 22.06.2024 is the named application
What I've noticed is that when Caledonian Sleeper expect a delay, they VSTP the splits at Edinburgh to add an extra hour between the penultimate stop and the destination. Is that to remove some liability for delay repay?
maybe, but surely there's enough rat runs around Birmingham to get trains in and out even in the worst of circumstances. And if it's 'planned' maintenance, well that's not so bad... you just don't sell tickets, or offer alternatives... Trent Valley etc.
jagardner1984
Member
- Joined
- 11 May 2008
- Messages
- 749
I always assumed the stops at Preston, Crewe etc were poorly advertised as they were largely an irrelevance to the overall flows - with no availability most nights on Glasgow to London, for example - this is the forthcoming month in Classic.
So it seems unusual to open up new flows for which there will, presumably, also be little availability (Highlander availability Northbound for June 2024 is even worse), and which for significant portions of the year will be locked out anyway for the ECML diversions.
As unappealing as the timings might be, given the utterly trivial numbers of passengers involved, it would seem in terms of promoting it as a consistent route, to offer the Birmingham to ... most logical place to pick up the sleeper ... as part of the sleeper fare when ECML diversions are in place - e.g. probably take a train around 7-8pm to London to then go north (and vice versa). Far from ideal, but maybe less not ideal than blocking out for example the bank holiday weekend just gone, for either the out or return leg of someone's trip (ECML diversions in place) which would likely rule out both. It would also probably make the sleeper booking engine and its myriad of possibilities even more of a nightmare to code (and I think the current one is a huge step forward).
Part of me wondered whether there might be some tie in with Varamis for getting a parcel or two up to Inverness/Aberdeen first thing from their hub at international - I've never seen how fully (or not) the space is used on the Mk5s - presumably they'd avoid Fort William to avoid any confusion about the Edinburgh Transfer.
There is reference to the Shellfish Transport Inverness to London in this thread from 2019 - I'm not sure if this is accurate or if this is still a thing, but clearly at some point there has been capacity for more than passenger luggage on the CS.
So it seems unusual to open up new flows for which there will, presumably, also be little availability (Highlander availability Northbound for June 2024 is even worse), and which for significant portions of the year will be locked out anyway for the ECML diversions.
As unappealing as the timings might be, given the utterly trivial numbers of passengers involved, it would seem in terms of promoting it as a consistent route, to offer the Birmingham to ... most logical place to pick up the sleeper ... as part of the sleeper fare when ECML diversions are in place - e.g. probably take a train around 7-8pm to London to then go north (and vice versa). Far from ideal, but maybe less not ideal than blocking out for example the bank holiday weekend just gone, for either the out or return leg of someone's trip (ECML diversions in place) which would likely rule out both. It would also probably make the sleeper booking engine and its myriad of possibilities even more of a nightmare to code (and I think the current one is a huge step forward).
Part of me wondered whether there might be some tie in with Varamis for getting a parcel or two up to Inverness/Aberdeen first thing from their hub at international - I've never seen how fully (or not) the space is used on the Mk5s - presumably they'd avoid Fort William to avoid any confusion about the Edinburgh Transfer.
There is reference to the Shellfish Transport Inverness to London in this thread from 2019 - I'm not sure if this is accurate or if this is still a thing, but clearly at some point there has been capacity for more than passenger luggage on the CS.
When did fish traffic from north east Scotland finish?
When was the last time fish traffic actually ran from the northeast? Circa 1973ish?
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norbitonflyer
Established Member
Doubt it - they often go via International anyway (when the Trent valley is diverted for engineering work, and every Sunday night on the Lowlander for route knowledge purposes) - look at the PUSL site for trains taking the Grand Junction line between Stechford and Aston or between Bushbury Junction and Portobello Junction.
Sunday night has different departure times and a slightly longer journey time.
BRX
Established Member
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2008
- Messages
- 4,117
Low availability just means that they are successfully selling beds at the price they are asking, in the context of the current demand. If they can tap into an additional market at Birmingham, then they can increase demand and I'm sure would be aiming to increase the price they can charge and still sell out most of the beds.
Making a success of garnering extra passengers from Birmingham may not be in the interests of those of us who use the sleeper as it might help increase prices! Although of course in the longer term it's good for the survival of the sleeper service if it is well used and brings in more revenue.
Aside from the larger population that's in the west midlands, a departure time of something like 22.30 is quite a lot more attractive than 23.45 at Crewe ... and similar in the mornings.
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jagardner1984
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- 749
Yes and obviously if it helps bring new business - fantastic and for better timings for users currently using Crewe.
There was some discussion of this around the turn of the year when the formation length is dropped down, but it does seem rather odd to market a service to presumably garner new or returning custom, and then when people successfully engage with that marketing to get as far as looking into booking, they are told “computer says no” on all but a couple of Tuesday nights in all of the forthcoming month !
Good on them they can fill it, and doubtless there will be further fare rises as it continues to deviate from the “regular mode of transport” model it pushed during the ScotRail years.
£19 Bargain Berth Befitting Birmingham anyone ? !