Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[Trainbike46]

none of the 805 diagrams show 805’s going to Liverpool so I don’t know why people think they will be.
The additional Liverpool show as cancelled.
There is no date for 807s.
For a fleet of 10 only two are at Oxley. Running to Glasgow next week on test. I doubt these will be ready for the Dec 24 timetable

Because it was stated in a TfN (?) meeting that the second Liverpool service would start with 805s on diesel north of Crewe - people aren't just making it up, though when exactly this second Liverpool service will start is unclear

Well thats one positive after the dreadful harsh interiors on the GWR/LNER IETs but isn't the suggestion 5 cars will be running to Liverpool?

The 80x are only intended for the second hourly service to Liverpool, so completely additional to the existing hourly pendolino service (though most of the current pendolino services run in the 80x path)

 

[Sorcerer]

Interesting that Pendolino is still available on the continent though. Just needs a UK body that already exists So not really a new train.

The Pendolino on the continent does not come in the form of a bi-mode unit though, and while you could argue that a few Pendolinos could have been ordered instead of 807s as the electric-only stock to go with the 805 bi-modes (and indeed it wouldn't be unusual to have such a small order) it was better to just have a follow-on order from the same manufacturer. Not to mention the many other technical reasons why it wouldn't be feasible. Like I said earlier, it would not have been practical to order more tilting trains for the WCML when HS2 was just ten years away and would become the primary route for express intercity services.

Because it was stated in a TfN (?) meeting that the second Liverpool service would start with 805s on diesel north of Crewe - people aren't just making it up, though when exactly this second Liverpool service will start is unclear

Personally I don't think an 805 would be suitable given that it's only five carriages long while a seven coach 807 would've barely matched the capacity of a nine coach Pendolino, which in itself was barely enough for current capacity. Plus where are these extra 805 units even coming from? I know the Shrewsbury service was withdrawn but are North Wales services being that neglected that we have spare sets to run another train to Liverpool every hour?

 

[Trainbike46]

Personally I don't think an 805 would be suitable given that it's only five carriages long while a seven coach 807 would've barely matched the capacity of a nine coach Pendolino, which in itself was barely enough for current capacity. Plus where are these extra 805 units even coming from? I know the Shrewsbury service was withdrawn but are North Wales services being that neglected that we have spare sets to run another train to Liverpool every hour?

you don't have to match pendolino capacity though - because running an hourly pendolino plus an hourly 80x is more capacity than just the hourly pendolino

Clearly the 807s are more suitable once they sort out the power supply - the 807 was ordered for this service (and the Birminghams), and they picked 7-cars so they could stop at Liverpool South Parkway, which can't be served by pendolinos

I agree they shouldn't reduce North Wales or Chester services to enable a second hourly Liverpool, but is there any evidence they're actually doing that?

 

[Boodiggy]

Because it was stated in a TfN (?) meeting that the second Liverpool service would start with 805s on diesel north of Crewe - people aren't just making it up, though when exactly this second Liverpool service will start is unclear

The 80x are only intended for the second hourly service to Liverpool, so completely additional to the existing hourly pendolino service (though most of the current pendolino services run in the 80x path)

I know people were not making it up but it was never more than speculation with fleet size.
Plus the service wasn’t in the June 24 TT and the Dec 24 doesn’t have a big uplift in Liverpool services either it was always wishful thinking.

If it was a simple as running a diesel it could have been done with a Voyager..

 

[800001]

I have received the following from a source within Avanti (Internal email sent to staff) and below are the service's scheduled to be operated by an 805 starting wc 2nd June 2024, all paths are stp over the coming weeks due to engineering work. Anything not listed, continues to be operated by a 221 or 390.
Obviously not all may operate each day starting tomorrow, this list below is shared in good faith!
(Where states 2x805 to or from Chester, obviously they split/attach and it’s 1x805 to/from Holyhead)

Sundays - 14 x 805 services

1A16 10:14 Chester to Euston 1x 805
1D83 10:36 Crew to Euston 2 x 805
1B38 11:15 Wolverhampton to Euston 1 x 805
1A42 12:48 Holyhead to Euston 2 x 805
1D87 13:02 Euston to Holyhead 1 x805
1A36 13:32 Chester to Euston 1 x 805
1A48 13:48 Holyhead to Euston 2 x 805
9G29 15:15 Euston to Birmingham NS 1 x 805
9G32 16:15 Euston to Birmingham NS 1 x 805
1J32 17:01 Euston Wrexham General + Holyhead 2 x 805 as far as Chester
1B55 17:21 Birmingham NS to Euston 1 x 805
1K67 17:53 Holyhead to Crewe 1 x 805
1D92 18:01 Euston to Holyhead 2 x 805 as far as Chester
1D95 19:18 Chester to Holyhead 1 x 805

Monday to Friday Services 14 x 805 services

1D80 05:30 Birmingham NS to Holyhead 2 x 805
1A14 06:48 Holyhead to Euston 2 x 805 from Chester
1A26 08:53 Holyhead to Euston 2 x 805
1A19 09:20 Chester to Euston 1 x 805
1D86 12:02 Euston to Chester 1 x 805
1A50 12:48 Holyhead to Euston 2 x 805 from Chester
9G26 14:16 Euston to Birmingham NS 2 x 805
1D89 15:02 Euston to Holyhead 2 x 805 as far as Chester
1B52 16:21 Birmingam NS to Euston 2 x 805
1D91 17:02 Euston to Holyhead 2 x 805 as far as Chester
1A68 17:32 Chester to Euston 1 x 805
9G38 18:16 Euston to Wolverhampton 2 x 805
1G00 19:48 Holyhead to Birmingham NS 1 x 805
1D94 20:02 Euston to Holyhead 1 x 805

Saturday services 18 x 805 services

1D80 05:30 Birmingam NS to Holyhead 1 x 805
1B25 07:21 Birmingham NS to Euston 1 x 805
1A26? 07:48 Holyhead to Euston 2 x 805 from Chester
9G08 08:16 Euston to Birmingam NS 1 x 805
1A34 08:48 Holyhead to Euston 1 x 805
9G11 09:16 Euston to Birmingham NS 1 x 805
1B31 09:21 Birmingham NS to Euston 1 x 805
1B34 10:21 Birmingham NS to Euston 1 x 805
1B37 11:21 Birmingham NS to Euston 1 x 805
1D86 12:02 Euston to Chester 2 x 805
1D87 13:02 Euston to Holyhead 1 x 805
1A58 14:32 Chester to Euston 2 x 805
9G32 16:16 Euston to Birmingham NS 1 x 805
1D91 17:02 Euston to Chester 2 x 805
9G38 18:16 Euston to Birminghmam NS 1 x 805
1B58 18:21 Birmingham NS to Euston 1 x 805
9G41 19:16 Euston to Wolverhampton 1 x 805
9G44 20:25 Euston to Wolverhampton 1 x 805

 

[Whistler40145]

Are the 807s planned for the Liverpool Lime Street and Blackpool North services once the power supply is upgraded?

 

[danbarjon]

Are the 807s planned for the Liverpool Lime Street and Blackpool North services once the power supply is upgraded?

I've heard that some Blackpool services are getting changed for Glasgow to reinstate the hourly West Mid - Glasgow link but for now it seems Liverpool and Blackpool are the 807s intended use but as always it could change.

 

[hexagon789]

Are the 807s planned for the Liverpool Lime Street and Blackpool North services once the power supply is upgraded?

The 2nd Liverpool and the hourly stopping Birmingham. Blackpool is supposedly go back to Glasgow bar I think a few peak directs via the Tremt Valley long-term.

 

[Whistler40145]

Will the 805s eventually be cleared for Birmingham New Street to Nuneaton for diversions?

 

[danbarjon]

I've found the application for the Blackpool services so here it is. *sorry it's a long one*


Weekday changes:

Weekdays Up 9A53EU 11:51 Blackpool North to Euston starts from Glasgow Central calling at Motherwell, Carlisle, Penrith, Preston and forward as booked to Euston.

9A84EU 15:51 Blackpool North to Euston starts from Glasgow Central calling at Carlisle, Lancaster, Preston and forward as booked to Euston.

1A92EU 12:51 Blackpool North to Euston new service calling at Preston, Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Nuneaton, Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction and Euston.

Down 9P47FU 07:40 Euston to Blackpool North is diverted to Glasgow Central. As booked to Preston and then calls at Lancaster, Penrith, Carlisle, Motherwell and Glasgow Central.

9P65FU 11:40 Euston to Blackpool North is diverted to Glasgow Central. As booked to Preston and then calls at Lancaster, Penrith, Carlisle, Motherwell and Glasgow Central.

1P92FU 09:20 Euston to Blackpool North new service calling at Milton Keynes Central, Tamworth Low Level, Lichfield Trent Valley, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston and Blackpool.

Saturday changes:

Saturdays Up
9A53EV 11:51 Blackpool North to Euston starts from Glasgow Central calling at Motherwell, Carlisle, Penrith, Preston and forward as booked to Euston.

9A84EV 15:51 Blackpool North to Euston starts from Glasgow Central calling at Carlisle, Lancaster, Preston and forward as booked to Euston.

1A92EV 12:51 Blackpool North to Euston new service calling at Preston, Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Nuneaton, Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction and Euston.

Down 9P47FV 07:40 Euston to Blackpool North is diverted to Glasgow Central. As booked to Preston and then calls at Lancaster, Penrith, Carlisle, Motherwell and Glasgow Central.

9P65FV 11:40 Euston to Blackpool North is diverted to Glasgow Central. As booked to Preston and then calls at Lancaster, Penrith, Carlisle, Motherwell and Glasgow Central.

1P92FV 09:20 Euston to Blackpool North new service calling at Milton Keynes Central, Tamworth Low Level, Lichfield Trent Valley, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston and Blackpool North.

Fleet use:

The rights being sought utilise existing specified equipment. The procurement of a new-build Hitachi fleet on to other services releases Class 390 units to the services detailed in 4.1.

Dates of these changes:

18 May 2025 until 14 December 2030.

Application link:

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Current%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/22.05.2024%20-%20First%20Trenitalia%20West%20Coast%20Rail%20Limted%20-%20Section%2022A%20-%203rd%20SA%20-%20Closes%2024.06.2024/3rd%20SA%20Form%20P%2022A%20for%20200524%20submission.pdf

 

[Elorith]

Well thats one positive after the dreadful harsh interiors on the GWR/LNER IETs but isn't the suggestion 5 cars will be running to Liverpool?

The suggestion is 2tph on the Liverpool route (eventually). Even if both run as 7 car 807s, that's still more capacity than exists at the moment.

 

[800301]

I have it on good authority that many Hitachi fitters will be spending a lot of time around Chester over the next few weeks for the start of service to aid with any issues of them splitting and attaching.

As much as it’s nice to see these new trains enter service, I wonder how long it’ll be until they start running round like the GWR ones with GU’s isolated, traction converters out of use and diesel only restrictions being the norm

 

[Elorith]

Reply

I have it on good authority that many Hitachi fitters will be spending a lot of time around Chester over the next few weeks for the start of service to aid with any issues of them splitting and attaching.

As much as it’s nice to see these new trains enter service, I wonder how long it’ll be until they start running round like the GWR ones with GU’s isolated, traction converters out of use and diesel only restrictions being the norm

Given that some of the stock diagrams have over 1000 miles on them, diesel only running would rather hard to implement!

 

[Sam 76]

I have it on good authority that many Hitachi fitters will be spending a lot of time around Chester over the next few weeks for the start of service to aid with any issues of them splitting and attaching.

As much as it’s nice to see these new trains enter service, I wonder how long it’ll be until they start running round like the GWR ones with GU’s isolated, traction converters out of use and diesel only restrictions being the norm

To be fair GWR are the only ones to destroy them like this. The others have all been quite well maintained so fingers crossed Avanti are no exception.

Avanti clearly care about maintenance given the refurbishment so fingers crossed

 

[mikestone1952]

805008 left Stafford for Euston on diesel on 3A88 yesterday.
;
On Wednesday 805010 appeared to have some problem in the Rugeley area, seemingly resulting in the 09.46 LM from Euston being held at Tamworth then running non-stop all the way to Crewe!

 

[800001]

To be fair GWR are the only ones to destroy them like this. The others have all been quite well maintained so fingers crossed Avanti are no exception.

Avanti clearly care about maintenance given the refurbishment so fingers crossed

Is it not Hitachi who maintain GWR units?

 

[Boodiggy]

I have it on good authority that many Hitachi fitters will be spending a lot of time around Chester over the next few weeks for the start of service to aid with any issues of them splitting and attaching.

As much as it’s nice to see these new trains enter service, I wonder how long it’ll be until they start running round like the GWR ones with GU’s isolated, traction converters out of use and diesel only restrictions being the norm

A team of fitters will also be riding the new trains to combat any issues during the introduction to service

 

[Benjwri]

Is it not Hitachi who maintain GWR units?

To be fair it isn’t GWR themselves, but it’s the Great Western route (barring anything to do with differences between Hitacgi GWML and ECML depots and build quality, which is speculation at best). GWML IETs spend longer on diesel so of course have traction motors go quicker, and the supply issues are well documented on here.
Diesel only is rare at the moment, when it does happen I believe it often has things to do with Dawlish.
These are a mixture of poor design is some areas, but also or failure to complete GWML electrification has meant they are not running in the designed conditions.

 

[800001]

To be fair it isn’t GWR themselves, but it’s the Great Western route (barring anything to do with differences between Hitacgi GWML and ECML depots and build quality, which is speculation at best). GWML IETs spend longer on diesel so of course have traction motors go quicker, and the supply issues are well documented on here.
Diesel only is rare at the moment, when it does happen I believe it often has things to do with Dawlish.
These are a mixture of poor design is some areas, but also or failure to complete GWML electrification has meant they are not running in the designed conditions.

I know all that, the poster implied it was GWR who were responsible for the poor maintenance of the units, which is not true.

 

[Sam 76]

I know all that, the poster implied it was GWR who were responsible for the poor maintenance of the units, which is not true.

Apologies for any confusion I have caused. More wanted to make this point that most fleets are in better condition than the GWR ones. They seem to be in my experience for some reason the exemption not the norm

 

[Northerngirl]

Are the first passenger services tomorrow?

 

[Boodiggy]

Yes, diagrams in post 2255 above.

 

[800001]

Are the first passenger services tomorrow?

Post 2255 shows services ‘scheduled’ to start tomorrow.

 

[danbarjon]

Tomorrows 10:14 Chester to London has been allocated as 805008.

 

[800001]

Tomorrows 10:14 Chester to London has been allocated as 805008.

Certainly on Chester/Holyhead route all 805 allocations are now showing on RTT

 

[danbarjon]

Certainly on Chester/Holyhead route all 805 allocations are now showing on RTT

Hopefully some videos of the inside are released tomorrow in service. I think someone might want to update Avanti's website if the launch goes ahead tomorrow.

 

[Boodiggy]

Post 2255 shows services ‘scheduled’ to start tomorrow.

Yes, it is the diagrammed workings. Could change but most likely to be those services

 

[800001]

Yes, it is the diagrammed workings. Could change but most likely to be those services

I know, which is what I wrote on the post! The post is what Avanti have briefed out to there staff!
As I say in the post, things can change on the day!

 

[danbarjon]

I know, which is what I wrote on the post! The post is what Avanti have briefed out to there staff!
As I say in the post, things can change on the day!

I think there are some changes like some 10 cars altered for a 5.

 

[AJDesiro]

I have it on good authority that many Hitachi fitters will be spending a lot of time around Chester over the next few weeks for the start of service to aid with any issues of them splitting and attaching.

As much as it’s nice to see these new trains enter service, I wonder how long it’ll be until they start running round like the GWR ones with GU’s isolated, traction converters out of use and diesel only restrictions being the norm

The Avanti units have new GU’s, which are meant to be more reliable than the older 80x, I believe the 810s have this new design too.