Cancelled due to ‘a short notice change to the timetable’

[AndrewE]

Nice to hear "due to a short notice change to the timetable" being mocked on R4 this morning, with the implication that it was nonsense and shouldn't be used. It was in an item about Bolton having the worst cancellation and delay record of any major station - and Northern got their fair share of the criticism. However while it wasn't harsh or alleging neglience or incompetence, it did highlight that some depots had exceptional sickness rates, which I thought came close to blaming the problems on the staff...

 

[Krokodil]

I find "we're being held at a red signal" slightly reassuring, in that [a] it means the stop isn't due to the wheels falling off our train, and there's a good chance that it's just some minor problem or delay in front of us; and it should mean that someone in the box or control centre is (or soon will be) aware of the issue.

The important bit though is that the member of staff making the announcement should (if there isn't any information available already) reassure the passengers that further information will be passed on as soon as it is known.

 

[Llandudno]

That's not a hard and fast rule for all cases (even if it probably applies here). There are more things to consider, including the alternative options available to the passengers. Better to cancel a busier service if there is another one ten minutes later for example.

I wonder if route knowledge has a part to play in this. It must be hard work keeping drivers current even if the advertised service ran as booked, both morning and evening.

Of course the fact that the line is so lightly patronised probably has quite a lot to do with the infrequency of the advertised service, and the fact that it is so unreliable. I would expect to see a significant percentage increase (from what is a very low base of course) in patronage whenever Merseyrail finally take over the Ellesmere Port to Helsby line.

I very much doubt Merseyrail have any interest in running between Ellesmere Port and Helsby, as none of the route lies within Liverpool City Region.

It would be cheaper, to run an hourly bus from Ellesmere Port to Helsby via Cheshire Oaks connecting with trains and could be started up in a matter of weeks!

 

[Confused52]

I very much doubt Merseyrail have any interest in running between Ellesmere Port and Helsby, as none of the route lies within Liverpool City Region.

It would be cheaper, to run an hourly bus from Ellesmere Port to Helsby via Cheshire Oaks connecting with trains and could be started up in a matter of weeks!

At the last Mayoral Election Steve Rotheram promised a new station at Daresbury. That location being between Helsby and Warrington Bank Quay and in Halton Borough which is within the Liverpool City Region. An hourly bus service already runs to Runcorn but it is no use to get to Warrington unless you change at Frodsham to the service from Chester. However the connection is poor (long) and the last departure of the day is before 1630. Hence not a replacement for the cancelled train. An hourly bus already runs on the route you suggest but is of no use to the OP and stops before the missing train.

 

[Krokodil]

I very much doubt Merseyrail have any interest in running between Ellesmere Port and Helsby, as none of the route lies within Liverpool City Region.

Chester doesn't lie within Liverpool City Region either, Merseyrail still run there.

It would be cheaper, to run an hourly bus from Ellesmere Port to Helsby via Cheshire Oaks connecting with trains and could be started up in a matter of weeks!

It might be cheaper to run a bus, but that doesn't mean that anyone will use it

 

[sansyy]

I would definitely argue that they should have an accessible taxi running between Ellesmere Port and Frodsham (in case there are any PRMs making a through journey who can't use the bridge at Helsby). A second best would be putting notices on the CIS screens telling passengers to use the help points (assuming that the stations are fitted) to contact the TOC for assistance.

They occasionally run a taxi depending on the day but when they P-code instead of cancel due to unavailable staff they don’t which is more than likely as they can’t be bothered to respect the customers.
While patronage is a lot lower than usual, it is still an advertised service that northern has been given to run and if they were so keen on removing the train then maybe they should man up and put a replacement bus every time on. As a paying customer it’s just unacceptable.

I would definitely argue that they should have an accessible taxi running between Ellesmere Port and Frodsham (in case there are any PRMs making a through journey who can't use the bridge at Helsby). A second best would be putting notices on the CIS screens telling passengers to use the help points (assuming that the stations are fitted) to contact the TOC for assistance.

There is no help points or CIS’ sadly at any of the station except Helsby and beyond. Ellesmere Port only has those facilities on the Merseyrail platform and Ince and Elton is bare bones with no CCTV either.

And it's better to cancel a lightly used service to allow staff (or even a unit) to work a busier service which will benefit more passengers. The least bad option when they have limited options

I’d agree if they were honest and put replacement services on that worked for the few passengers but they don’t.

 

[Llandudno]

Chester doesn't lie within Liverpool City Region either, Merseyrail still run there.


It might be cheaper to run a bus, but that doesn't mean that anyone will use it

But Chester is a huge traffic generator.
Probably Merseyrail’s busiest station after Liverpool City Centre stations and Southport

I think Cheshire CC may have also chipped in a few quid for Chester electrification back in the day?

 

[sansyy]

Lots would use the Ellesmere Port Helsby link if it had more frequency

 

[Krokodil]

But Chester is a huge traffic generator.

So is Manchester. Getting there from Ellesmere Port is currently an utter chore. Cutting out the dog leg shortens journeys between quite a few parts of the south Wirral and Manchester (among other places).

 

[Kite159]

Lots would use the Ellesmere Port Helsby link if it had more frequency

Would they though?

If there was untapped potential for demand you would have pictured one of the local bus companies tapping into that demand by running a bus between the two places.

 

[Krokodil]

If there was untapped potential for demand you would have pictured one of the local bus companies tapping into that demand by running a bus between the two places.

Like the number 2? Takes 30 mins to do a journey that a train (when it runs) covers in 10. Runs hourly. Doesn't provide as convenient connections to Warrington and Manchester as a train would, and there are plenty of people who wouldn't consider catching a bus even if it did run at a reasonable speed.

Come to think of it, if you wanted to get from Ellesmere Port to Runcorn you can do so by train in a mere 29 minutes (vs 1hr 42mins by bus or 1hr 12mins by train via Lime St). Great. Just so long as you don't mind getting up for an 06:30 departure and Northern actually bother to run their train. Pointing at this line and saying "no one uses it" is just as ridiculous as it was in the 1960s when services were deliberately run down to justify closure. Of course no one uses it, it's almost unusable. Who would use a service that only runs at times that mean a 12.5hr day (again, if it even turns up)?

Incidentally, for some reason the Passenger Flow Data lists Runcorn East as having 3,450 passengers heading to/from Eastham Rake. If they are all travellling on a permitted route (and not buying the much more expensive "via Liverpool" ticket) that would make a total of up to 14 people travelling in each direction per day - via Chester apparently isn't permitted and via Liverpool is more than twice the fare. You can't travel in both directions on the same day, even if Northern did run the advertised service, because you'd have to turn back before you got there or you'd miss your return. So presumably you have two sets of 14 people travelling in each direction per day, staying overnight in Eastham Rake. Maybe they all hold a Changing of the Guard ceremony on the Ellesmere Port footbridge.

 

[Deepgreen]

A 'short notice change to the timetable' is, effectively, meaningless - one could argue that any cancellation would fall under this heading, with a plethora of underlying causes. Yet more embarrassing railway blether.

 

[Bikeman78]

NS used to say "due to rolling stock issues"

In other words, we have taken about 50 Koplopers out of service without any replacement!

 

[sansyy]

So is Manchester. Getting there from Ellesmere Port is currently an utter chore. Cutting out the dog leg shortens journeys between quite a few parts of the south Wirral and Manchester (among other places).

I recommend just going via Liverpool Lime Street, I usually get a Merseyrail Day Saver for 5.95 and then can get a 7.90 fare from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria on TPE and it’s usually cheaper than going straight from Chester even though it adds 20 minute to my journey. Cheaper than the TfW fare and nicer than the Northern Journey.

 

[Krokodil]

I usually get a Merseyrail Day Saver for 5.95

That's not a lot of use for a commuter, it's not valid until 09:30.

 

[londonmidland]

Northern posted this on X/Twitter recently. Advising passengers to travel ‘if only absolutely necessary’ during this Sunday across the North West.

Significant disruption and short notice cancellations in the North West on Sunday 16th June 2024.

Customers please be advised that Services on routes in and around the North West will be subject to significant disruption and short notice cancellations this coming Sunday.

Please check journey planners in advance and travel only if absolutely necessary.

journeycheck.com/northern/

 

[Lampshade]

Northern posted this on X/Twitter recently. Advising passengers to travel ‘if only absolutely necessary’ during this Sunday across the North West.

Father's Day and the Euros.

 

[AndrewE]

but it's not good for people needing to use public transport - part of the infrastructure underpinning our public realm.

Treat the staff properly (fairly) and they will sacrifice their pleasures for the public good. It's not rocket science.

 

[TheEastAnglian]

but it's not good for people needing to use public transport - part of the infrastructure underpinning our public realm.

Treat the staff properly (fairly) and they will sacrifice their pleasures for the public good. It's not rocket science.

Absolutely agree, traincrew at the front and back being treated very poorly at the moment, and this is the consequences. Industrial Relations are at an all time low with little change on the horizon.

 

[Class 170101]

Absolutely agree, traincrew at the front and back being treated very poorly at the moment, and this is the consequences. Industrial Relations are at an all time low with little change on the horizon.

Don't run away with the idea its just confined to traincrew, it isn't.

 

[Whistler40145]

Maybe the New Mills Central landslip has some knock on effect?

 

[Rail Ranger]

There are mass cancellations on many lines on Northern today. ASLEF overtime ban (until 27th July) plus Sunday being voluntary overtime for conductors on the west side of Northern.

 

[Mag_seven]

plus Sunday being voluntary overtime for conductors on the west side of Northern.

And this combined with Fathers Day and England on the telly this evening makes it a perfect storm.

 

[Moonshot]

Staff are perfectly entitled to not work on a Sunday

 

[Iskra]

Staff are perfectly entitled to not work on a Sunday

That doesn’t mean that it’s a sensible contractual position in 2024 or that it’s in sync with passenger demand or business need. Probably something that will have to be addressed sooner rather than later.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Staff are perfectly entitled to not work on a Sunday

And Northern are perfectly entitled to propose changes to the contract that bring them back in touch with operational reality.

Sadly, they have failed to put together an offer that reflects this reality. At this point, at least new starters should be employed with Sundays in the working week.

 

[LowLevel]

Staff are perfectly entitled to not work on a Sunday

I've been a guard for years and whilst I agree that it's correct as it stands - the railway runs on a Sunday and if some sort of mutually agreeable solution whatever it might be to ensure a service can operate can't be found (up to the staff for me whether it's Sundays inside with a guaranteed rest day pattern and extra rest days, committed Sundays, protecting those who can demonstrate they've not worked Sundays for however long or whatever) then it isn't unreasonable to suggest that people should consider whether this changed element of what is expected of them at work suits them or whether it is important enough to them to seek alternative employment.

 

[Moonshot]

I've been a guard for years and whilst I agree that it's correct as it stands - the railway runs on a Sunday and if some sort of mutually agreeable solution whatever it might be to ensure a service can operate can't be found (up to the staff for me whether it's Sundays inside with a guaranteed rest day pattern and extra rest days, committed Sundays, protecting those who can demonstrate they've not worked Sundays for however long or whatever) then it isn't unreasonable to suggest that people should consider whether this changed element of what is expected of them at work suits them or whether it is important enough to them to seek alternative employment.

Oh I agree....changes to working patterns to include Sundays will happen. I'm simply pointing out that as things stand now, staff do not have to work Sundays. I ve lost count of how many times this has been pointed out on this forum, yet we still get posts like this saying exactly the same thing

 

[Trainman40083]

I'm sure people said that nationalisation would solve the problem... No, sorting out the real problems will, no matter who runs it .

 

[skyhigh]

And Northern are perfectly entitled to propose changes to the contract that bring them back in touch with operational reality.

Which has, historically, happened. East drivers have Sunday as part of their normal working week.

The problem is that under the outgoing Conservative government there has been no appetite for constructive discussions regarding changes to contracts.