Cancelled due to ‘a short notice change to the timetable’

[ModernRailways]

It’s just a classic “Sunday is not in the working week, morale is low, it’s a warm summer day and the football is on”. Staff can chuck in their Sundays and therefore you have more planned services than crew to run them.

On the west side it’s purely voluntary for whether or not someone wants to work a Sunday. Sundays on the west may as well constantly be in a state of ‘do not travel’ because its consistently poor and people shouldn’t be making plans more than a day ahead.

On the east, you can request to have a Sunday off but this is only subject to resources having others wanting to work so the duty can be covered. Sundays aren’t part of the working week, but are contracted and form part of the roster.

East side can be considerably more hit and miss with cancellations because the cancellations are because of sickness and lack of people wanting rest day work. West side is a lot simpler, just don’t even bother trying to travel on a Sunday unless you really need too and you should expect disruption.

Terrible state of affairs but like you say, very low morale, summer, weekend, throw in the Euros and an England game, plus a widening gap of us and them (train crew/depot staff and management (regional and higher, not local)), pay and terms disputes and you just have the perfect recipe for people not wanting to work. This also ignores the fact that on weekends staff are likely going to receive some sort of abuse, and have a more stressful shift with limited, if any, support.

 

[davehsug]

Nightmare journey from Stoke to Blackpool yesterday. Caught the 10.55 to Oxford road, where I was to change to the 12.03 to Blackpool. The train terminated at Piccadilly, meaning I couldn't get to Oxford road in time. The 13.06 to Blackpool had already been cancelled, so I ended up on the 12.51 to Barrow, which was absolutely rammed, I literaly had to force my way on, then stand crushed to Preston. Northern are a bluddy disgrace and just to add, my ticket was not checked once on the whole journey.

 

[Confused52]

But the reason for the ASLEF overtime ban at the moment is entirely down to recent Northern management decisions in their relations with drivers over rostering,. disciplinary issues etc.
They have chosen an adversarial path, they could easily just go back to following rostering and disciplinary procedures as they were 12 months ago. They choose not to.
No idea why.

So the current Sunday problem is that the Northern management have the effrontery to believe that they have the authority to manage the operation when everyone else knows that only the unions can do that!

 

[Mag_seven]

On the west side it’s purely voluntary for whether or not someone wants to work a Sunday. Sundays on the west may as well constantly be in a state of ‘do not travel’ because its consistently poor and people shouldn’t be making plans more than a day ahead.

On the east, you can request to have a Sunday off but this is only subject to resources having others wanting to work so the duty can be covered. Sundays aren’t part of the working week, but are contracted and form part of the roster.

East side can be considerably more hit and miss with cancellations because the cancellations are because of sickness and lack of people wanting rest day work. West side is a lot simpler, just don’t even bother trying to travel on a Sunday unless you really need too and you should expect disruption.

Terrible state of affairs but like you say, very low morale, summer, weekend, throw in the Euros and an England game, plus a widening gap of us and them (train crew/depot staff and management (regional and higher, not local)), pay and terms disputes and you just have the perfect recipe for people not wanting to work. This also ignores the fact that on weekends staff are likely going to receive some sort of abuse, and have a more stressful shift with limited, if any, support.

Isn't about time that the MD of Northern started to justify their no doubt large salary and do what they are paid to do and sort this mess out. And just much subsidy does this outfit get from the taxpayer?

 

[Carlisle]

Northern management have the effrontery to believe that they have the authority to manage the operation when everyone else knows that only the unions can do that!

Yes, & a bit disingenuous when some posters continually suggest management have a vast array of tools at their disposal to address all these I.R. issues but conveniently omit saying most would result in some form of industrial action.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Isn't about time that the MD of Northern started to justify their no doubt large salary and do what they are paid to do and sort this mess out. And just much subsidy does this outfit get from the taxpayer?

They've just changed MD haven't they? obviously not a great start!

 

[mike57]

This problem has been around for what seems like years. Until this year we had been relatively immune on our local route, the Yorkshire Coast line. However every weekend there are now multiple cancellations. The workforce are not going to (quite rightly) give up their existing arrangements and move to a 7 day working week if they will end up worse off and probably need other safegaurds. The government/DfT have said there is no money, continue in loop with no obvious solution. I dont think likely changes post July 4th will help.

What I cant get my head round is this: I assume currently Sundays are overtime, and paid at an enhanced rate, so it costs more to run the Sunday services. So if Sundays are brought into the working week they could still attract the premium rate, so that if someone works the same number of Sundays they get a similar level of pay to what they get now. Among those currently in the job there will be those who never work Sundays and dont wish to, you would have to give them a 'pass' but they would just get current basic pay I assume. All new recruits terms include Sundays, with current uplifts, so they get the financial benefit, but dont have the opt out option. In time you would solve the problem, and costs would surely not be vastly different to the current staffing costs, or am I missing something. I suspect the DfT are trying to get 7 day working week at the same hourly rate or whatever as the current arrangements, i.e. on the cheap

And I might get unpopular, but I dont think the Unions have been good at putting their case over to the public, I know it may sound simplistic, but for public consumption it need to be simple and sound bite sized.

 

[geoffk]

Nice to hear "due to a short notice change to the timetable" being mocked on R4 this morning, with the implication that it was nonsense and shouldn't be used. It was in an item about Bolton having the worst cancellation and delay record of any major station - and Northern got their fair share of the criticism. However while it wasn't harsh or alleging neglience or incompetence, it did highlight that some depots had exceptional sickness rates, which I thought came close to blaming the problems on the staff...

The shortage of trains yesterday (Sunday 16th) was an item on Radio 4's one o'clock news today. We were told that several train operators relied on overtime to run a full timetable, especially on Sundays. There wasn't an interview with anyone from the rail industry or DfT. Has this issue made the national news before (as opposed to industrial action or overtime bans)?

 

[Darandio]

Meanwhile, I undertook a return journey on Northern out this morning back early afternoon and every train ran bang on time. Indeed through Middlesbrough there's been one cancellation all day and that was due to a unit fault.

Doesn't seem like Northern are "giving up" whatever that's supposed to mean to me...

Wasn't too clever on our patch today!

Granted it's quite the rarity for us on this side.

Due to members of train crew been unavailable, the following Northern services will be cancelled.
11:22 Saltburn to Darlington due 12:17
12:22 Darlington to Saltburn due 13:18
13:22 Saltburn to Darlington due 14:16
13:23 Darlington to Saltburn due 14:18
14:22 Saltburn to Darlington due 15:17
14:22 Darlington to Saltburn due 15:17
15:22 Darlington to Saltburn due 16:18
15:22 Saltburn to Darlington due 16:16
16:22 Saltburn to Darlington due 17:16
16:22 Darlington to Saltburn due 17:18
17:22 Saltburn to Darlington due 18:16
17:24 Darlington to Saltburn due 18:18
18:23 Saltburn to Darlington due 19:17
19:22 Darlington to Saltburn due 20:18
20:23 Saltburn to Darlington due 21:18
20:26 Bishop Auckland to Saltburn due 21:51
21:59 Saltburn to Darlington due 22:55
_____
Due to a member of train crew been unavailable, the following Northern service will be terminated at Darlington.
18:59 Saltburn to Bishop Auckland due 20:19. It will no longer call at North Road, Heighington, Newton Aycliffe, Shildon and Bishop Auckland.
_____
Northern apologise for the cancellation of these train services today, please travel on the next available service.

 

[HullRailMan]

The Labour Party 2024 Manifesto includes the following commitment to deliver reliable train services. To achieve this they will if they form the next Government have to negotiate agreements to bring Sunday within the working week where this is not already the case and end the reliance on overtime and rest day working which is making some train services unreliable.

The same paragraph says they won’t spend a penny. Solving the Sunday outside the working week issue without it costing money is surely impossible? They either need to financially incentivise existing staff or employ more staff to reduce the reliance on overtime. Either way, someone (traveller or taxpayer) will have to cough up.

 

[Moonshot]

The same paragraph says they won’t spend a penny. Solving the Sunday outside the working week issue without it costing money is surely impossible? They either need to financially incentivise existing staff or employ more staff to reduce the reliance on overtime. Either way, someone (traveller or taxpayer) will have to cough up.

It is indeed impossible.....

 

[Horizon22]

Only a few years people were so thankful when Northern had the franchise stripped, despite many stating that, actually, 90% of the issues would remain. And yet here we are...

The Sunday working is a deep-seated issue and the wider context is that ultimately if your hands are tied, it doesn't matter who is trying to manage Northern, it would effectively 'fail'.

 

[iknowyeah]

So the current Sunday problem is that the Northern management have the effrontery to believe that they have the authority to manage the operation when everyone else knows that only the unions can do that!

ASLEF are in favour of Sunday being part of the working week.

RMT as far as I know don't have a position as they leave it to members, but as a member of both I like the current arrangement, and if the company weren't causing a dispute I'd probably be working every Sunday for the next month, so they only have themselves to blame

 

[Falcon1200]

In time you would solve the problem, and costs would surely not be vastly different to the current staffing costs, or am I missing something.

Bringing Sundays into the working week would increase costs because more Drivers would be required! Instead of working say 5 weekdays plus a Sunday, the week would consist of 5 days of which one might be a Sunday. But the current situation at Northern is a disgrace and the bullet will have to be bitten, eventually.

 

[mike57]

Bringing Sundays into the working week would increase costs because more Drivers would be required!

But would it? If for the sake of arguement it takes 420 hours of time to deliver a particular service 7 days a week, and 40 of those hours are Sunday hours which attract a premium then you can either have 10 drivers each working 42 hours, i.e similar to current situation, or split those hour between more drivers, if you have 11 drivers then they each work ~38 hours, 12 drivers work 35 hours each, But assuming hourly rates paid are the same where do the extra costs come from? I understand there is a cost of employment, but how significant is that.

 

[Confused52]

ASLEF are in favour of Sunday being part of the working week.

RMT as far as I know don't have a position as they leave it to members, but as a member of both I like the current arrangement, and if the company weren't causing a dispute I'd probably be working every Sunday for the next month, so they only have themselves to blame

Why does management changing rostering or whatever it is mean they are causing a dispute? In the rest of industry it happens and there is consultation but everyone knows that being consulted doesn't mean unions have to agree with change for it to happen. Why does it have to be different in Northern?

 

[muz379]

I understand there is a cost of employment, but how significant is that.

Employers NIC contributions which are 13.8% above the threshold , employer contributions to the RPS which vary from scheme to scheme but are a significant cost / costs associated wih training , ongoing competence management for instance the increase in crew required to bring sundays inside the working week might mean that to maintain sensible management ratios you would need a new Driver or Guards manager as well to keep the team sizes sensible with all the costs associated with this new employee as well .

 

[mike57]

Employers NIC contributions which are 13.8% above the threshold , employer contributions to the RPS which vary from scheme to scheme but are a significant cost / costs associated wih training , ongoing competence management for instance the increase in crew required to bring sundays inside the working week might mean that to maintain sensible management ratios you would need a new Driver or Guards manager as well to keep the team sizes sensible with all the costs associated with this new employee as well .

Wouldn't NIC contributions increase anyway with overtime. I dont know about the pension, but usually they are earnings related, so really the extra cost is management and training of a larger team of people. My take away is its cheaper to have a smaller number of people working more hours and earning more money per person to deliver a given level of service. (I am not saying its the right approach, just trying to get my head around where the costs are coming from).

 

[anothertyke]

But would it? If for the sake of arguement it takes 420 hours of time to deliver a particular service 7 days a week, and 40 of those hours are Sunday hours which attract a premium then you can either have 10 drivers each working 42 hours, i.e similar to current situation, or split those hour between more drivers, if you have 11 drivers then they each work ~38 hours, 12 drivers work 35 hours each, But assuming hourly rates paid are the same where do the extra costs come from? I understand there is a cost of employment, but how significant is that.

That's always been my question. but I presume part of the answer is that the price of reducing the average working week by 10 per cent and bringing sundays inside is (let us say) a 10 per cent increase in hourly rates. Or at least that's the negotiating zone.

Plus there are obvious practical short term issues of training enough staff to get from here to there.

 

[TheEastAnglian]

Wouldn't NIC contributions increase anyway with overtime. I dont know about the pension, but usually they are earnings related, so really the extra cost is management and training of a larger team of people. My take away is its cheaper to have a smaller number of people working more hours and earning more money per person to deliver a given level of service. (I am not saying its the right approach, just trying to get my head around where the costs are coming from).

Pension contributions don't take into account any overtime and are just taken from base salary. You're right it is cheaper to pay the overtime and rely on good will of employees to work over their contacted hours. Great when times are good and relations between staff and management are fine. Horrific when someone rocks the boat, just like what is happening at the moment.

 

[12LDA28C]

But would it? If for the sake of arguement it takes 420 hours of time to deliver a particular service 7 days a week, and 40 of those hours are Sunday hours which attract a premium then you can either have 10 drivers each working 42 hours, i.e similar to current situation, or split those hour between more drivers, if you have 11 drivers then they each work ~38 hours, 12 drivers work 35 hours each, But assuming hourly rates paid are the same where do the extra costs come from? I understand there is a cost of employment, but how significant is that.

It's quite simple. If Sundays are currently outside the working week then they are paid as overtime, in addition to a driver's ~35 hour week. So a driver works an average of 35 hours per week but might work (for example) 43 hours if they have a rostered Sunday.
As soon as Sunday is brought into the working week then it forms part of the 35 hour week which means that a driver rostered to work a Sunday now needs an additional day off in the week to avoid exceeding the 35 hours. And that is the case for every driver who works a Sunday, leading to more drivers having a Rest Day in the week which means many more drivers need to be employed to cover those vacant shifts.

You've literally just explained how, in your example, it would require 12 drivers to cover the same work as 10 drivers once Sundays are brought into the working week. Now multiply those numbers over and over again all around the network and surely you can appreciate the costs involved?

That's always been my question. but I presume part of the answer is that the price of reducing the average working week by 10 per cent and bringing sundays inside is (let us say) a 10 per cent increase in hourly rates. Or at least that's the negotiating zone.

Plus there are obvious practical short term issues of training enough staff to get from here to there.

See my explanation above. A driver now working a rostered Sunday as part of their ~35 hour week is now not driving trains on a Wednesday, for example.

Why does management changing rostering or whatever it is mean they are causing a dispute? In the rest of industry it happens and there is consultation but everyone knows that being consulted doesn't mean unions have to agree with change for it to happen. Why does it have to be different in Northern?

An industry which generally relies on goodwill from staff to run the advertised service, particularly on a Sunday would not respond well to Management failing to adhere to previously agreed policies and principles by introducing arbitrary changes to working arrangements that negatively impact staff. Surely that's fairly simple to understand?

 

[Falcon1200]

You've literally just explained how, in your example, it would require 12 drivers to cover the same work as 10 drivers once Sundays are bought into the working week. Now multiply those numbers over and over again all around the network and surely you can appreciate the costs involved?

Explained very well, thanks!

The other point I think is that if Drivers lose their Sunday overtime shifts, their take-home pay goes down too; Would the extra time off be sufficient to compensate for that, or would an increase in basic pay rates be demanded?

 

[anothertyke]

I do understand that.

But suppose you have a unit with staff working a 35 hr week and available for overtime on a Sunday. In normal times the duty guy can fill the roster with voluntary overtime.

Now management says ' we'd like to bring Sundays inside and propose to recruit enough staff to fill the roster. So now you'll all be working five days out of seven with no overtime except in exceptional sickness/holiday circumstances.'

What hourly rate premium would you have to pay to get a deal like that?

 

[Confused52]

An industry which generally relies on goodwill from staff to run the advertised service, particularly on a Sunday would not respond well to Management failing to adhere to previously agreed policies and principles by introducing arbitrary changes to working arrangements that negatively impact staff. Surely that's fairly simple to understand?

Not as simple as you think. It actually says that in said industry the unions have a veto on any changes (any changes can be labelled as arbitrary) which they don't like at pretty much any time they like. If all industry worked like like the economy would collapse due to inflation never being offset by improved productivity. That would mean ever lowering quality of life for the employees.

 

[12LDA28C]

Not as simple as you think. It actually says that in said industry the unions have a veto on any changes (any changes can be labelled as arbitrary) which they don't like at pretty much any time they like. If all industry worked like like the economy would collapse due to inflation never being offset by improved productivity. That would mean ever lowering quality of life for the employees.

Nope, still simple. Principles negotiated between management, Unions and staff and agreed as acceptable to all parties should be adhered to and acted on in good faith. Any changes to those agreements would need to be negotiated between all relevant parties so a satisfactory compromise can be reached. Seems fair to me, but apparently not to you.

I do understand that.

But suppose you have a unit with staff working a 35 hr week and available for overtime on a Sunday. In normal times the duty guy can fill the roster with voluntary overtime.

Now management says ' we'd like to bring Sundays inside and propose to recruit enough staff to fill the roster. So now you'll all be working five days out of seven with no overtime except in exceptional sickness/holiday circumstances.'

What hourly rate premium would you have to pay to get a deal like that?

Rail staff shouldn't be relying on overtime to be able to live their life and have no right to complain if more people are employed so that depots are full staffed meaning a reduction in the amount of overtime available. ASLEF's position is that Sunday should be in the working week as of course that means more drivers employed, more membership fees rolling in and a stronger Union with more members.

 

[Moonshot]

More of the same this weekend.....Around 30 driver turns uncovered this Sunday at my depot. Will be similar elsewhere. Do not plan a journey on Sunday with Northern, it more than likely won't happen

 

[Confused52]

87 cancellations for the rest of the day at the moment on journey check for Northern. Not just North West but every one I looked at was Short Notice Change or missing crew member. Anyone would think there was an England match on ......

 

[AndrewE]

It's mornings as well... Yesterday our attempt to meet up with my brother in the S Pennines was spoilt for a second time by the cancellation of the 0944 from York at Bradford. Day not completely wasted, but we were kicking our heels for an hour waiting for his arrival before we could get going on our walk together. Public transport has to be reliable if people are to risk using it rather than just jumping in the car.

I know that the staff have been pushed beyond any breaking point and the manangement have their hands tied... so I really hope that the politicians who are the paymasters get the DfT by the balls pdq and make them impose sensible /binding contracts on the TOCs and fund adequate staffing together with the T&C needed to run the railway that the country needs.

 

[dk1]

87 cancellations for the rest of the day at the moment on journey check for Northern. Not just North West but every one I looked at was Short Notice Change or missing crew member. Anyone would think there was an England match on ......

That will of course add to the issues. Obviously no ASLEF members are doing overtime, working rest days, or helping out in any way but many other traincrews in other unions will be less likely to have any interest in volunteering for extra today from late afternoon/evening and early tomorrow when the nations football team are playing.

 

[Donny Dave]

I'm planning on going for a walk along the Hope Valley tomorrow. How big is the possibility of trains being cancelled between Sheffield and Manchester?