Cancelled due to ‘a short notice change to the timetable’

[Whistler40145]

Northern could make Sundays part of the working week, alternatively they could have a pool of staff willing to work Sundays

 

[Re 4/4]

Sorry, just put on the other thread, over 60 Northern services already cancelled for tomorrow on their Journey Check. I think they have given up.

Where can I see journey check for tomorrow? The version I get on mobile has start/end point, but no day selector unless I'm missing something.

 

[Starmill]

Where can I see journey check for tomorrow? The version I get on mobile has start/end point, but no day selector unless I'm missing something.

There's just a list of cancellations and if you scroll down you'll see any that are already input for tomorrow.

 

[Moonshot]

Its worth pointing out that currently, ASLEF have instructed drivers at Northern not to work any overtime including Sunday's. This is because of a dispute between Union and Management which is separate from the pay dispute. This will last until end of July...... though I suspect if the dispute isn't settled by then, it will just carry on until further notice.

As has been stated many many times now by the informed opinion on here, do NOT rely on Northern for making a journey......there are scores of them being cancelled at short notice. You cannot say you haven't been warned

 

[12LDA28C]

They couldn’t buy out existing contracts, no, nor buy the companies outright. But if they wanted to they could fund new stock up front and cut out the Rosco, thus starting the process. I think it’s very unlikely though.

They could, but they have announced no plans to do so, nor to buy any existing stock off the ROSCOs into public ownership. Leasing will continue.

 

[John R]

They could, but they have announced no plans to do so, nor to buy any existing stock off the ROSCOs into public ownership. Leasing will continue.

Which is exactly why I said it was very unlikely.

 

[Kilopylae]

Perhaps Northern should cancel Sunday trains permanently? That way, the travelling public will know to plan alternatives.

And Network Rail get a free day every week to do maintenance!

I assume from the ! this is meant to be a bit tongue in cheek, but given the state of things, is this something they could seriously consider? Or are their hands tied by the franchise obligations?

 

[Confused52]

I assume from the ! this is meant to be a bit tongue in cheek, but given the state of things, is this something they could seriously consider? Or are their hands tied by the franchise obligations?

They don't have a franchise, and any penalty they might incur would be due to their own shareholders, the new Labour Government. The OLR is a wholly owned subsidiary company of HMG. If it does something it is because the DfT wants it so and thus penalties would be inappropriate. They are not really in control anyway that privilege belongs to the unions; that is because the DfT cannot just take away a public service required by statutory authority. That is what means the get out clauses in TUPE can never be used in the railways to reorganise and modernise and is at the heart of why we are we are.

 

[thealexweb]

The deadlock between Northern management, unions and DfT needs breaking. How about copy and paste the new TfW contract that recently got approved?

 

[ainsworth74]

Meanwhile, I undertook a return journey on Northern out this morning back early afternoon and every train ran bang on time. Indeed through Middlesbrough there's been one cancellation all day and that was due to a unit fault.

Doesn't seem like Northern are "giving up" whatever that's supposed to mean to me...

 

[Whistler40145]

They need to sort things out over the Pennines

 

[Horseman]

The deadlock between Northern management, unions and DfT needs breaking. How about copy and paste the new TfW contract that recently got approved?

Exactly. Instant acceptance

 

[AMD]

How about copy and paste the new TfW contract that recently got approved?

If it came with the £££ that TfW is offering, there would be a very large proportion of conductors asking where we sign. Part of the present dissatisfaction with the current state of play is that Northern conductors pay is slipping further behind other operators and senior management aren't helping the situation (whether or not this is driven by the DfT) with their refusal to countenance any enhancement of Sundays as a 'short term' fix.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I assume from the ! this is meant to be a bit tongue in cheek, but given the state of things, is this something they could seriously consider? Or are their hands tied by the franchise obligations?

I was thinking it might be a sensible course of action. Stop trying to run trains where you don't have committed (as opposed to voluntary) resources to do so.
Reinstate when/if you do get the committed resources.

 

[Dore & Totley]

I see from Northern twitter they are being a tad disingenuous calling it action short of a strike and referring people to their strike page for further information.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Something needs to be done, but nobody will pay for it, so it won’t be.

 

[londonmidland]

Meanwhile, I undertook a return journey on Northern out this morning back early afternoon and every train ran bang on time. Indeed through Middlesbrough there's been one cancellation all day and that was due to a unit fault.

Doesn't seem like Northern are "giving up" whatever that's supposed to mean to me...

That’s because you’ve traveled on the east side of their network, which seems to be relatively unaffected by the issues.

The west side is a whole different ball game. Try travelling out of Manchester Piccadilly/Victoria on a Northern service heading to Lancashire and/or Merseyside stations, for example, and you’ll soon see the issues arise.

 

[Krokodil]

I think the poster you were replying to was indicating that shortages among other grades in the industry also have a very noticable impact .

Shortages in engineering lead to units being stopped for longer waiting repair or exams which leads to short forming which is also a real prevalent issue at some operators .

Shortages in planning and control also leads to less resilience , less create diagramming in response to engineering works and a much less creativity in service recovery following incidents . Again both things we see people on these forums posting about quite a bit .

Those are indirect. No driver today = cancellation today. That's a very simple cause and effect. The other examples you list won't be as readily understood by the public, and the problems tend to form over time rather than immediately.

 

[Starmill]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but Northern tickets are being accepted on TransPennine Express services by any reasonable route, by East Midlands Railway services between Manchester Piccadilly and Sheffield, and on a lot of other routes (e.g. Avanti West Coast between Manchester Piccadilly and Crewe and Merseyrail between Liverpool South Parkway and Southport). In most cases the affected routes have had the final service of the day replaced with a bus, meaning if the other operator doesn't run a service late enough, there will at least be road transport.

It could be argued therefore that the internal decision to use the relevant CSL2 procedures means this Sunday the end consumer is getting a slightly better service than they would have last Sunday or several other recent ones.

 

[richfoz84]

Northern have issued a Do Not Travel warning today, because of their poor service due to lack of staff.

 

[ainsworth74]

That’s because you’ve traveled on the east side of their network, which seems to be relatively unaffected by the issues.

The west side is a whole different ball game. Try travelling out of Manchester Piccadilly/Victoria on a Northern service heading to Lancashire and/or Merseyside stations, for example, and you’ll soon see the issues arise.

Well yes, but I'm not quite sure how strife on one side of the operation means that Northern as an entirety has "given up"? It's extremely problematic on the West Side, I don't dispute, but "giving up"?

 

[td97]

ASLEF have instructed drivers at Northern not to work any overtime including Sunday's

Sundays for Northern West side drivers are contractually committed overtime.

The rampant Sunday cancellations are due to lack of West side guards, for whom Sunday working is entirely voluntary.

The easiest short term fix would be for management to recognise that this story is repeated every week, and adequately source alternative transport (similar to an engineering work rail replacement bus operation).

 

[Horizon22]

Well yes, but I'm not quite sure how strife on one side of the operation means that Northern as an entirety has "given up"? It's extremely problematic on the West Side, I don't dispute, but "giving up"?

"Giving Up" means the control team have had something to work with and haven't bothered. If you are so short of crew, you will be firefighting all day and they didn't have much to work with in the first place.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2024 ==

The easiest short term fix would be for management to recognise that this story is repeated every week, and adequately source alternative transport (similar to an engineering work rail replacement bus operation).

I imagine though the impact is varied each Sunday though? A wet April Sunday with no major events will be totally different to a warm June Sunday when the country is playing a major sporting event.

This is why entirely voluntary Sundays is such an outdated practice as the service reliability is at the whims of the weather, events and the way the calendar falls.

 

[muz379]

I assume from the ! this is meant to be a bit tongue in cheek, but given the state of things, is this something they could seriously consider? Or are their hands tied by the franchise obligations?

I suspect that might attract more negative press than the current state of affairs is however , and obviously would then possibly highlight the political element of the problem . So doubt the DFT would sanction this .

The deadlock between Northern management, unions and DfT needs breaking. How about copy and paste the new TfW contract that recently got approved?

Deadlock indicates that there has been some discussion / negotiation around this matter which as far as I am aware is not the case .

If it came with the £££ that TfW is offering, there would be a very large proportion of conductors asking where we sign. Part of the present dissatisfaction with the current state of play is that Northern conductors pay is slipping further behind other operators and senior management aren't helping the situation (whether or not this is driven by the DfT) with their refusal to countenance any enhancement of Sundays as a 'short term' fix.

Spot on , the fact that Northern conductors pay relative to other operators is lower means that to drum up apetite for a deal around sundays comes at a high price .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2024 ==

The easiest short term fix would be for management to recognise that this story is repeated every week, and adequately source alternative transport (similar to an engineering work rail replacement bus operation).

Probably easier , cheaper and better for customers to increase the enhancement for sunday working . That way you can get the actual trains that people want running rather than putting them on slower busses .

And of course road transport isn't always easy to come by .

 

[Starmill]

If it came with the £££ that TfW is offering, there would be a very large proportion of conductors asking where we sign. Part of the present dissatisfaction with the current state of play is that Northern conductors pay is slipping further behind other operators and senior management aren't helping the situation (whether or not this is driven by the DfT) with their refusal to countenance any enhancement of Sundays as a 'short term' fix.

Most Northern conductors working on the affected routes already receive an enhanced rate for Sundays. It's more that morale is near an all time low and there's a good reason for many people to not want to sign up for work today.

 

[richfoz84]

Manchester Piccadilly is circa 40 conductors short, so this is contributing to the cancellations.

 

[NewarkRed]

Manchester Piccadilly is circa 40 conductors short, so this is contributing to the cancellations.

Northern don't help themselves in this respect

You might have a Qualified Conductor wanting to move to Manchester or Blackpool or wherever, but their application will go nowhere because a)Northern want to train their own staff b)they get paid to do so and c)the travelling time restriction - even if you have a place to live already.

 

[156421]

As well as cancelling roughly half of the Barrow to Carlisle (and return) services yesterday, there was also a SPAD at Askam resulting in the driver being taken off the job, resulting in further cancellations. Additionally Northern did their signature move of cancelling last services of the day. Rail replacement taxi taking me from Harrington to Barrow can't have been cheap.

 

[Moonshot]

Sundays for Northern West side drivers are contractually committed overtime.

The rampant Sunday cancellations are due to lack of West side guards, for whom Sunday working is entirely voluntary.

The easiest short term fix would be for management to recognise that this story is repeated every week, and adequately source alternative transport (similar to an engineering work rail replacement bus operation).

As I actually work for Northern, I can safely assure you that around 40% of the driving turns on Sunday we're not covered. Committed overtime will only cover a certain number of turns on any given Sunday.....the rest needs volunteers. No volunteers are being allowed to work at the moment due to a non pay dispute.

 

[mandub]

Obviously there are structural issues with Sundays on the west with Northern that need to be sorted long.term.

But the reason for the ASLEF overtime ban at the moment is entirely down to recent Northern management decisions in their relations with drivers over rostering,. disciplinary issues etc.
They have chosen an adversarial path, they could easily just go back to following rostering and disciplinary procedures as they were 12 months ago. They choose not to.
No idea why.
Morale & motivation to help out the company in anyway is non existent