Euston overcrowding

[takno]

Genuine question: Which organisation is actually the most expert in station crowd control (at a main line terminal such as Euston so, for example, London Underground or Hong Kong metro not really applicable)?

I think it's a good question. There are a lot of trade-offs, and people with expertise in different spaces who would likely give competing advice.

Anybody with Platform-Train Interface expertise would likely push very hard for the numbers of people on the platform to be kept to a minimum. People experienced in dealing with surges in wider spaces might suggest getting people off the concourse as quickly as possible. Anybody who was licensing a club or festival to be honest might well throw their hands up in despair and declare that you needed people on the external doors limiting station capacity to 1000. People designing the pavements would be terrified that people queuing outside would end up under a bus.

I honestly don't know who has the most expertise or the most joined-up teams. ORR as a regulator are mostly focused on getting signed-off plans which indicate that NR have engaged the relevant expertise, and I suspect that most of the heavy-lifting is being done by a combination of NR and the RSSB. Whether they have the expertise in place or not I don't know.

Personally I just don't think there's a good way to completely eliminate risk in this scenario, and I suspect that a culture in the railways of expecting to completely eliminating risk isn't helping. It seems like we may be ending up with arbitrary actions put in place to mollify the people who shouted loudest and most recently.

I am not any kind of safety officer though, and would absolutely hate to have the job, so I'm reluctant to start saying that one thing or another is wrong, short of saying that whatever is currently happening doesn't seem sustainable.

 

[bramling]

I think it's a good question. There are a lot of trade-offs, and people with expertise in different spaces who would likely give competing advice.

Anybody with Platform-Train Interface expertise would likely push very hard for the numbers of people on the platform to be kept to a minimum. People experienced in dealing with surges in wider spaces might suggest getting people off the concourse as quickly as possible. Anybody who was licensing a club or festival to be honest might well throw their hands up in despair and declare that you needed people on the external doors limiting station capacity to 1000. People designing the pavements would be terrified that people queuing outside would end up under a bus.

I honestly don't know who has the most expertise or the most joined-up teams. ORR as a regulator are mostly focused on getting signed-off plans which indicate that NR have engaged the relevant expertise, and I suspect that most of the heavy-lifting is being done by a combination of NR and the RSSB. Whether they have the expertise in place or not I don't know.

Personally I just don't think there's a good way to completely eliminate risk in this scenario, and I suspect that a culture in the railways of expecting to completely eliminating risk isn't helping. It seems like we may be ending up with arbitrary actions put in place to mollify the people who shouted loudest and most recently.

I am not any kind of safety officer though, and would absolutely hate to have the job, so I'm reluctant to start saying that one thing or another is wrong, short of saying that whatever is currently happening doesn't seem sustainable.

There are several elements to the Euston problems

* Overcrowding on the concourse during disruption
* Surges when trains are advertised especially when this happens at the last minute
* Conflicts between arriving and departing flows

Some of this is very difficult to sort given the design of the station, but causing backing-up of flows because of the barrier checks, and surges due to late advertising of services are both avoidable to some extent.

Whilst we all know that sometimes late advertising of services is unavoidable, the feeling I get is that there is no effort at all made at Euston to improve on this. Likewise the barrier checks seem to be more aimed at keeping on-train revenue staff happy in terms of reducing the number of issues they’re likely to have to deal with.

Just getting as many people as possible on to trains as early as possible would help, but this seems to be firmly in the too difficult box. Yeah it’s more awkward for cleaners to work around people, but this is managed in plenty of other places.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just getting as many people as possible on to trains as early as possible would help, but this seems to be firmly in the too difficult box. Yeah it’s more awkward for cleaners to work around people, but this is managed in plenty of other places.

Not least the exact same trains at Manchester Piccadilly. Occasionally cursory efforts were made to control it, but you could always get there via the bridge, and now it's a single gateline (aside from the Northern bit) they can't prevent it at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2024 ==

Just getting as many people as possible on to trains as early as possible would help, but this seems to be firmly in the too difficult box. Yeah it’s more awkward for cleaners to work around people, but this is managed in plenty of other places.

I don't see what's hard about just stopping suppressing the platforms for WMT trains, where there's no specific servicing that takes place and no longer any splitting and joining either. That would significantly reduce it.

They're even suppressing London Overground platforms despite that only ever being 9 or 10, that's beyond silly to ludicrous.

 

[Carntyne]

Is it not TOCs sweating their fleet and having the mininum possible turnarounds in their timetables that's causing the issues?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it not TOCs sweating their fleet and having the mininum possible turnarounds in their timetables that's causing the issues?

Not really. The trains are there, they just aren't boarded until late. Euston layovers are quite long.

 

[WAB]

Is it not TOCs sweating their fleet and having the mininum possible turnarounds in their timetables that's causing the issues?

It's more platform occupancy if I remember correctly. There aren't enough platforms to give sensible turnaround times at Euston. Sweating the fleet more is a benefit I guess, but given the number of trains being sent out late as a result of even a small delay to the inbound working, I don't suppose it actually represents much of a saving.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2024 ==

Not really. The trains are there, they just aren't boarded until late. Euston layovers are quite long.

Are they, though? Plenty of services are down to near the minimum turnaround times specified in the Rules of the Plan. I agree though that when there are longer layovers, this does not seem to translate to timely boarding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's more platform occupancy if I remember correctly. There aren't enough platforms to give sensible turnaround times at Euston. Sweating the fleet more is a benefit I guess, but given the number of trains being sent out late as a result of even a small delay to the inbound working, I don't suppose it actually represents much of a saving.

Has this got tighter since the loss of 17/18? The problem does seem to have got worse in that time, but so many things have got worse in the same time that it's hard to tell if that's why.

 

[P Binnersley]

There seems to be mis-management of the boiarding process at Euston.

Platforms advertised unnecessarily late which encourages the 'stampede' down the ramps - one day someone will get seriously hurt
Not letting people ont othe platforms early. There is no reason not to do this. I was told they aren't allowed to do this because people on a platform when a trtain is arriving into the platform is too dangerous - err what happens at practically every station across the country then.

The ORR has issued an improvement notice on Network Rail over crowd management at Euston. I don't know what the outcome of this is but I would encourage anyone witnessing anything dangerous to report it to the ORR.

Rail regulator requires crowd management improvements at Euston Station | Office of Rail and Road

Network Rail has been issued with an improvement notice by the Office of Rail and Road for London’s Euston Station, where the company has failed to put in effective measures to prevent risks to passengers and others during instances of surges and overcrowding.

www.orr.gov.uk

They complied with the improvement notice last year.

Notice issued to Network Rail Infrastructure Ltd on 26 September 2023​

• Issue date: 26 September 2023
• Compliance date: 21 November 2023, extended to 15 December 2023
• Status: Complied
• Public register ID: I/NWM/20230926/03

 

[Russel]

There are only (that I recall) benches on 8-11, and nobody stops you going down there if you want in normal circumstances.

Though in terms of why they are there, platforms were not suppressed for local services until the mid 2000s. It worked better when they weren't.

They are also mid way down platform 2/3, just past the big concrete ramp, there may be a couple on 1 as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are also mid way down platform 2/3, just past the big concrete ramp, there may be a couple on 1 as well.

There was a time when they used the 1-3 roadway for rail replacement buses - maybe they were for that?

 

[Russel]

There was a time when they used the 1-3 roadway for rail replacement buses - maybe they were for that?

Maybe, though they look fairly modern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe, though they look fairly modern.

That was fairly recent. Until about 2010 if I recall.

 

[The Planner]

It's more platform occupancy if I remember correctly. There aren't enough platforms to give sensible turnaround times at Euston. Sweating the fleet more is a benefit I guess, but given the number of trains being sent out late as a result of even a small delay to the inbound working, I don't suppose it actually represents much of a saving.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2024 ==


Are they, though? Plenty of services are down to near the minimum turnaround times specified in the Rules of the Plan. I agree though that when there are longer layovers, this does not seem to translate to timely boarding.

What's a sensible turnaround time? They haven't largely changed at Euston in 20 years.

 

[Kite159]

Not really. The trains are there, they just aren't boarded until late. Euston layovers are quite long.

Depends how you class as 'quite long'
23 minutes typical for a LNR from Crewe isn't that long. Especially when it can easily arrive late into London.

What's the typical turnaround for a Birmingham LNR or even a stopper from Milton Keynes or Tring.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends how you class as 'quite long'
23 minutes typical for a LNR from Crewe isn't that long. Especially when it can easily arrive late into London.

What's the typical turnaround for a Birmingham LNR or even a stopper from Milton Keynes or Tring.

I was more thinking of Avanti where there is cleaning and preparation taking place. It's not necessary to suppress LNR platforms at all because no work is done to the trains at Euston (aside from an occasional litter pick which can take place with people on board) - they weren't until the mid 2000s, and it worked better when they were not.

 

[WAB]

What's a sensible turnaround time? They haven't largely changed at Euston in 20 years.

I feel like this is a trap, given your much greater experience compared to me

But I would say that 30 minutes would be the minimum for VT in my view, 40 for the Anglo Scots. The LM Crewes could also do with longer turnarounds. But Euston isn't my turf so I can only speculate.

Perhaps the most interesting way to do it would be to work out what performance would be like if the following conditions had to be met, even during service perturbation:

• Incoming passengers to clear ramps before platform is called
• all Avantis to be cleaned fully
• all trains to be called a minimum of ten minutes prior to departure
• all trains to be unlocked for boarding for at least five minutes prior to departure

From this, look at how late trains are going out and adjust the turnaround times to eliminate the majority of delays. It would of course force a reappraisal of the capacity of Euston, but it seems that there is currently an unrealistic expectation of what Euston can handle given the regularly displaced traffic position.

 

[bramling]

What's a sensible turnaround time? They haven't largely changed at Euston in 20 years.

It isn’t so much the turnround time (though that’s a completely separate issue as regards performance), but the practice of staff wanting to keep trains out of bounds to departing passengers whilst the train is prepared and/or until staff are present.

There are attitudes in elements of the industry which take the view that the passenger is lucky to be on the train at all in advance of departure time. If the experience was really as focussed on the end-user as it claims to be then giving people access to the train at the absolute soonest possible time would be a priority. Some places do exactly that, Euston doesn’t.

 

[The Planner]

It isn’t so much the turnround time (though that’s a completely separate issue as regards performance), but the practice of staff wanting to keep trains out of bounds to departing passengers whilst the train is prepared and/or until staff are present.

There are attitudes in elements of the industry which take the view that the passenger is lucky to be on the train at all in advance of departure time. If the experience was really as focussed on the end-user as it claims to be then giving people access to the train at the absolute soonest possible time would be a priority. Some places do exactly that, Euston doesn’t.

I dont disagree.

I feel like this is a trap, given your much greater experience compared to me

But I would say that 30 minutes would be the minimum for VT in my view, 40 for the Anglo Scots. The LM Crewes could also do with longer turnarounds. But Euston isn't my turf so I can only speculate.

Perhaps the most interesting way to do it would be to work out what performance would be like if the following conditions had to be met, even during service perturbation:

• Incoming passengers to clear ramps before platform is called
• all Avantis to be cleaned fully
• all trains to be called a minimum of ten minutes prior to departure
• all trains to be unlocked for boarding for at least five minutes prior to departure

From this, look at how late trains are going out and adjust the turnaround times to eliminate the majority of delays. It would of course force a reappraisal of the capacity of Euston, but it seems that there is currently an unrealistic expectation of what Euston can handle given the regularly displaced traffic position.

Disagree, Euston isn't a badly performing location, sweating diagrams is. Anglo Scots should get 35 now, unless via the West Mids as there is a buffer at New St. Manchester and Liverpool get 25.

 

[WAB]

Disagree, Euston isn't a badly performing location, sweating diagrams is. Anglo Scots should get 35 now, unless via the West Mids as there is a buffer at New St. Manchester and Liverpool get 25.

So is there enough platform capacity to give sufficiently generous turnarounds to absorb the usual mild delays?

 

[modernrail]

A station as busy and badly laid out as Euston needs to be run really well, with a hugely positive Management that inspires its team to make it one of the best stations in the country, despite its considerable shortcomings. It is after all the major terminus of the busiest main line in the United Kingdom.

Instead the feeling on entry is of a badly cared for facility with a focus on lots of the wrong priorities and a a staff-customer interaction that borders on the contemptuous from both sides.

I personally can’t stand the place. It manages to take the fun out of catching a train in every way possible. I can enter happy and by the time I reach the bottom of the ramp I am usually thinking about emigrating.

They just need to do a much, much better job.

 

[uglymonkey]

I don't think it will change, sadly, until someone is killed or badly hurt in a "crush" situation ( not even then probably ("mistakes were made" etc)).

 

[The Planner]

So is there enough platform capacity to give sufficiently generous turnarounds to absorb the usual mild delays?

I'll ask again, whaf sort of turnarounds are we talking about if you dont consider the current ones adequate? Personally I would have a hot spare sitting there for stepping up, but Avanti run enough trains per hour to juggle sets.

 

[AlbertBeale]

So that the casualties from the rush can be laid out in comfort and not delay a train while they wait for an ambulance?

You got there before me!!

 

[Trainbike46]

I dont disagree.

Disagree, Euston isn't a badly performing location, sweating diagrams is. Anglo Scots should get 35 now, unless via the West Mids as there is a buffer at New St. Manchester and Liverpool get 25.

so, if they get 25 minutes turn around time, after arrival give it 5 minutes to allow most disembarking passengers to leave, then release the platform. As the Manchester and Birmingham trains run every ~20 minutes, that should mean that there is always a Manchester and a Birmingham boarding, limiting the amount of people waiting, and therefore avoid lots of people heading over at the same time. For the other routes, most people won't be arriving (much) more than 20 minutes before departure anyway, so it should lead to more spread out boarding.

If they want to clean without people on the train they can just lock the doors.

For LNWR, just don't suppress platforms at all, or do the same thing were the platform is released 5 minutes after arrival of the set, so that disembarking passengers have mostly left by the time departing passengers start arriving

 

[modernrail]

so, if they get 25 minutes turn around time, after arrival give it 5 minutes to allow most disembarking passengers to leave, then release the platform. As the Manchester and Birmingham trains run every ~20 minutes, that should mean that there is always a Manchester and a Birmingham boarding, limiting the amount of people waiting, and therefore avoid lots of people heading over at the same time. For the other routes, most people won't be arriving (much) more than 20 minutes before departure anyway, so it should lead to more spread out boarding.

If they want to clean without people on the train they can just lock the doors.

For LNWR, just don't suppress platforms at all, or do the same thing were the platform is released 5 minutes after arrival of the set, so that disembarking passengers have mostly left by the time departing passengers start arriving

I agree. I just cannot see a disadvantage to letting people on to the platform to queue at the doors.

It might be worse for me personally as I use the chaos to my advantage if I don’t have a seat reservation , by keeping an eye on RTT and then nabbing a seat in the unreserved carriage. However, it is not really meant to the survival of fittest, so let people on the platforms at least 15 minutes before the departure time.

This would also benefit the concourse as it would keep numbers lower and the atmosphere more calm.

I really must be missing why this is all such a terrible idea.

 

[Lewis66655]

I travelled from Euston last week. I checked my train on OpenTrains, headed to the platform down the slipway bit and past a few Avanti staff chatting. I was asked what I was doing, told I can’t go on to platform until the platform was announced and if I go any further I’d be denied travel .

Serious power trip. All I wanted to do was to sit on the benches before a horde of 600 people come my way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==

I travelled from Euston last week. I checked my train on OpenTrains, headed to the platform down the slipway bit and past a few Avanti staff chatting. I was asked what I was doing, told I can’t go on to platform until the platform was announced and if I go any further I’d be denied travel .

Serious power trip. All I wanted to do was to sit on the benches before a horde of 600 people come my way.

Other stations like Waterloo are more than fine with you waiting, even long distance services to Bournemouth etc.

 

[bramling]

I travelled from Euston last week. I checked my train on OpenTrains, headed to the platform down the slipway bit and past a few Avanti staff chatting. I was asked what I was doing, told I can’t go on to platform until the platform was announced and if I go any further I’d be denied travel .

Serious power trip.

And here I think lies the problem. The whole place seems to function on the basis of keeping Avanti staff happy. Just like it was in Virgin days.

For some reason management seem to pacify staff on this franchise in terms of letting things be run in a way which suits them, as opposed to putting the passenger first. Same with some of the shenanigans we’ve seen over the years with staff trying to keep certain seats free, or even on occasions trying to maintain complete carriages empty (coach K when the 390s had four first carriages). Management must be aware of all this going on, yet acquiesce to it.

It’s a variation of the Blackpool North theme.

Unlike Blackpool North which is a sleepy station at the end of a backwater branch, Euston is sufficiently busy that I tend to agree with the view that this will eventually come to a head with some kind of serious incident.

 

[Bungle965]

Same with some of the shenanigans we’ve seen over the years with staff trying to keep certain seats free, or even on occasions trying to maintain complete carriages empty (coach K when the 390s had four first carriages).

Something which can no longer happen, especially on a weekend where it is only Coach K available.
There is a dedicated seat located forward of the kitchen that the member of staff can use.

 

[WAB]

I'll ask again, whaf sort of turnarounds are we talking about if you dont consider the current ones adequate? Personally I would have a hot spare sitting there for stepping up, but Avanti run enough trains per hour to juggle sets.

• 5 minutes for disembarkation and platform to clear
• (25mins ex-Scotland, 20mins other services) delay recovery time
• 10 minutes for cleaners to clean with doors locked (platform called once doors locked)
• 7 minutes to board

So 42 to 47 minutes. Although this would require the way the station works to be overhauled into something far more suitable than that which exists at present.

To avoid overcrowding and the Euston Scrum, the circa. 15 mins allowed for boarding has to be sacrosanct. I'm less fussy about the delay recovery time, but it depends how late you want departures off Euston to be. From a cursory examination of RTT, delays up to the 20 minute mark seem pretty common, so a 20 minute recovery time would be reasonable. If, however, you're happy for trains to routinely leave late with the consequent performance issues across NW&C and beyond, then you can trim that down to suit your taste.

A hot set would be useful, but I'm not sure I'd trust Avanti to do set swaps on such large numbers of services and have them ready to start to time whilst retaining the 15 minutes protected boarding window.

 

[modernrail]

Something which can no longer happen, especially on a weekend where it is only Coach K available.
There is a dedicated seat located forward of the kitchen that the member of staff can use.

Yes and add this to the fact that those staff then have very loud chats which is infuriating when you have paid for a first class ticket often to enjoy a quieter area to work in - as advertised by the company that is allowing its staff to use dedicated passenger carriages (subsidised by the public purse) as a common room.

The other trick I have seen on Avanti is putting the seat back tables down in large areas of a carriage that staff then come in and use. It is pretty outrageous behaviour and I don’t understand why this operator in particular thinks it is okay.

There is a culture on LNER of the staff being very loud around the seating near the kitchen and taking over seats but it tends to be slightly less annoying as the service is generally more passenger focussed. Be better if it didn’t happen though.

Back to Euston….yeah the whole attitude is very power trip. The gate line staff are appalling, treating every passenger as a potential criminal whilst usually chatting between themselves, slowing down the ticket check. Then acting with glee in telling somebody they are ‘too late’. The managers at Euston need sacking and replacing if they can’t start doing their job properly.