Lack of ticket checking / scanning on Avanti services

[david l]

Moderator note: split from

Euston overcrowding

I've commuted into and out of Euston for 20+ years and tonight was the worst management I've ever seen and pretty dangerous. I'm usually pretty laid back and disruption and crowds happen but tonight was so bad I wanted to share my experience. I arrived about 1730 and came up through the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Policy, which is subject to staffing and a few other conditions is that Avanti services on 1-3 should be checked on arrival if it doesn't cause a delay and there's enough space (i.e. customers waiting to travel North aren't crowding near the gates, obstructing exiting passengers). No surprise that they catch a fair few with no/invalid tickets.

Attempts are made to prioritise arrival checking of double Voyager/Hitachi sets - but again, resourcing and operational constraints means it doesn't go to plan.

Glasgow (direct) are last stop Warrington (other than first/last trains) which, at virtually 2hours out should give TM's sufficient time to check all tickets - and not just Standard Premium/First as appears to be frequently the case..............................

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Glasgow (direct) are last stop Warrington (other than first/last trains) which, at virtually 2hours out should give TM's sufficient time to check all tickets - and not just Standard Premium/First as appears to be frequently the case..............................

RMT does not allow Train Managers on Avanti (and TPE) to properly inspect barcode tickets or smart cards - they want an additional payment. Extremely petty, but highly problematic for revenue protection.

Standard Premium and First class upgrades result in them getting a small sales commission.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had my barcode ticket scanned on Avanti this evening.

 

[Deafdoggie]

RMT does not allow Train Managers on Avanti (and TPE) to properly inspect barcode tickets or smart cards - they want an additional payment. Extremely petty, but highly problematic for revenue protection.

Standard Premium and First class upgrades result in them getting a small sales commission.

The dispute with Avanti is resolved. TMs are scanning tickets...if they bother checking at all.

 

[Bungle965]

The dispute with Avanti is resolved. TMs are scanning tickets...if they bother checking at all.

I wouldn’t be so sure on that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn’t be so sure on that.

I definitely had my ticket scanned on an Avanti train yesterday, so whether it's resolved or not at least some of them are doing it now.

 

[Bungle965]

I definitely had my ticket scanned on an Avanti train yesterday, so whether it's resolved or not at least some of them are doing it now.

Yes some are, not the vast majority however.

 

[Trackman]

I definitely had my ticket scanned on an Avanti train yesterday, so whether it's resolved or not at least some of them are doing it now.

I did last week, I dont know what all the fuss is about, the machine is doing all the hard work (so to speak).

 

[Deafdoggie]

I did last week, I dont know what all the fuss is about, the machine is doing all the hard work (so to speak).

They'd rather put more work & effort in by having to manually read the ticket than simply scan it

I wouldn’t be so sure on that.

Either it's resolved or they are all ignoring it.

 

[Kite159]

I did last week, I dont know what all the fuss is about, the machine is doing all the hard work (so to speak).

It's the RMT wanting extra money for the sake of doing part of the guard's job using a different manner, mainly using a scanner in addition to the Mk1 eyeball.

Made a bit of sense on Northern considering the large change from mostly pay-trains (where a good percentage of stations served by Northern didn't have TVMs) to the vast majority of stations having TVMs and the rise of online ticketing where commission from on board sales would have crashed compared to 2014 but for Avanti where the only on-board sales they would do are for chancers at the northern end of the network [Warrington - Lancaster] rather than at the southern end due to the majority of stations served having barriers. [and I know barriers are not perfect]

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

It's definitely not resolved. A handful of Train Managers ignore the union instructions and scan regardless, or at least scan tickets or customers they're sceptical about.

Something else for the new transport secretary to handle as part of overall pay negotiations.

Ultimately it's because the RMT has a theory that any time new technology is introduced, it automatically makes the acceptance of that technology deserving of a payment (mainly because some short-term minded TOCs gave into this approach in the late 90s, early 2000s when technology genuinely was novel). As soon as the Train Manager gets a one off £800-£1000 payment or something ridiculous like 2-5p per scan, all of a sudden, the technology is absolutely fine.

It's not even really about commission, as even before e-tickets, virtually all on board revenue came from excess fares/upgrades, which they still issue just as frequently - possibly more frequently with the introduction of Standard Premium.

 

[Bungle965]

It's definitely not resolved. A handful of Train Managers ignore the union instructions and scan regardless, or at least scan tickets or customers they're sceptical about.

Something else for the new transport secretary to handle as part of overall pay negotiations.

Ultimately it's because the RMT has a theory that any time new technology is introduced, it automatically makes the acceptance of that technology deserving of a payment (mainly because some short-term minded TOCs gave into this approach in the late 90s, early 2000s when technology genuinely was novel). As soon as the Train Manager gets a one off £800-£1000 payment or something ridiculous like 2-5p per scan, all of a sudden, the technology is absolutely fine.

It's not even really about commission, as even before e-tickets, virtually all on board revenue came from excess fares/upgrades, which they still issue just as frequently - possibly more frequently with the introduction of Standard Premium.

It’s funny however that this issue never came about under Virgin Trains even at the end, wonder why that was…

 

[takno]

It’s funny however that this issue never came about under Virgin Trains even at the end, wonder why that was…

I would guess because Virgin didn't introduce scanners until they were near or at the end of the contract, so it never came up

 

[Bungle965]

I would guess because Virgin didn't introduce scanners until they were near or at the end of the contract, so it never came up

Towards the end yes, but had at least 3 years if not more. Now even with Avanti the issue has only cropped up relatively recently.

 

[Krokodil]

It's the RMT wanting extra money for the sake of doing part of the guard's job using a different manner, mainly using a scanner in addition to the Mk1 eyeball.

That wasn't the story I'd heard from the local staff. They were saying that the working to rule came about because of unreasonable expectations from management. Allegedly TMs were being pulled up for trivia like not going through in the five minutes between Llandudno Junction and Colwyn Bay. If management had enough spare time to be going through the scan records to that level of detail then Avanti could save a few quid by reducing their numbers.

 

[CC 72100]

It’s funny however that this issue never came about under Virgin Trains even at the end, wonder why that was…

And how many e-tickets as a percentage of overall tickets were around then?

Context is required against that statement.

 

[Efini92]

It’s funny however that this issue never came about under Virgin Trains even at the end, wonder why that was…

Because virgin always stumped up the cash.

 

[Krokodil]

And how many e-tickets as a percentage of overall tickets were around then?

Context is required against that statement.

Quite a bit by the end. Except for anything with a Maltese Cross, but those journeys are still on CCSTs to this day.

 

[Rover77]

There is certainly no agreement, TMs in dispute and most should not be scanning. There are a number of reasons for this such as how the company use the data against staff for various reasons. Also important to note who owns the company who makes the scanners. Monopoly and conflict of interest springs to mind.

 

[ABB125]

There is certainly no agreement, TMs in dispute and most should not be scanning. There are a number of reasons for this such as how the company use the data against staff for various reasons. Also important to note who owns the company who makes the scanners. Monopoly and conflict of interest springs to mind.

I wasn't aware that First Group (or Trenitalia) made ticket scanners?

 

[Krokodil]

I wasn't aware that First Group (or Trenitalia) made ticket scanners?

Other than the "monopoly" reference, I was thinking that the scanners might be made by Fujitsu, and that is what he was alluding to.

 

[Bungle965]

There is certainly no agreement, TMs in dispute and most should not be scanning. There are a number of reasons for this such as how the company use the data against staff for various reasons. Also important to note who owns the company who makes the scanners. Monopoly and conflict of interest springs to mind.

Chinese whispers!
The company who makes the scanners have nothing to do with Avanti or parent company, indeed neither does the company that provides the scanning software.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The company that makes the scanners is Chinese, like virtually anything these days, but the company that makes the software that controls the scanners (and receives the data from them) is entirely English. No data goes ourside of the UK. It's certainly not a monopoly either, there's at least 4 providers in UK rail (Masabi, Clipper, Team Tech and TTK).

Never heard so much rubbish in my life.

 

[Bungle965]

Never heard so much rubbish in my life.

Nothing like a good railway rumour mill!

 

[Rover77]

I should have said the data company, not the company thst makes the actual hardware.
Love how so many people on this forum are such experts on everything. Check Mistral data LTD and the conflict of interest with the Chair of the RDG (amongst his other appointments)

 

[JamesT]

Love how so many people on this forum are such experts on everything. Check Mistral data LTD and the conflict of interest with the Chair of the RDG (amongst his other appointments)

Mistral Data Ltd is part of First Group. The Chair of RDG is Arriva’s MD. You’re going to have to be a bit more explicit in where you see a conflict of interest.

 

[Rover77]

The company that makes the scanners is Chinese, like virtually anything these days, but the company that makes the software that controls the scanners (and receives the data from them) is entirely English. No data goes ourside of the UK. It's certainly not a monopoly either, there's at least 4 providers in UK rail (Masabi, Clipper, Team Tech and TTK).

Never heard so much rubbish in my life.

Nobody mentioned data going outside the UK. You invented that part yourself. TMs are under attack and first group are Setting arbitry onboard sales targets and pressuring them to meet them. This may also explain why there are so many comments about unfair excess fare charges. TMs feel under pressure to sell or excess standard tickets. Revenue training is also no longer part of the TM training course yet they are still pressurised to sell.
The data used against them is that when scanning we are then unable to show discretion. If a scan shows a ticket is not valid and a TM chooses to accept it and not excess or sell a fresh ticket, this info will be used against them.
The job is hard enough but management make it feel like you are doing it with your hands tied behind your back.
Customers are completly unaware of the challenges so just keep questioning and criticising hard working staff doing a difficult job in impossible circumstances.

Mistral Data Ltd is part of First Group. The Chair of RDG is Arriva’s MD. You’re going to have to be a bit more explicit in where you see a conflict of interest.

MD of RDG is Steve Montgomery, he was until Feb this year an executive of Mistral Data. He also is the top dog of first group who own Avanti.

 

[JamesT]

MD of RDG is Steve Montgomery, he was until Feb this year an executive of Mistral Data. He also is the top dog of first group who own Avanti.

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/governance/rdg-members.html Says the Chair is David Brown, Steve Montgomery is just part of the board.
Steve Montgomery is or was a director of many First Group companies, that doesn’t make it a conflict of interest.
It’s an entirely normal setup for conglomerates to have specialists in an area provide services to the rest of the group.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I should have said the data company, not the company thst makes the actual hardware.
Love how so many people on this forum are such experts on everything. Check Mistral data LTD and the conflict of interest with the Chair of the RDG (amongst his other appointments)

You're still talking absolutely rubbish and seem to have a totally flawed argument here.

I have no idea how this subsidiary company fits into your conspiracy - but let's run with it and say you're correct, it's linked to First Group and they're using the data in the way you describe, to monitor staff.

What do you propose would stop them from buying the equipment/ data from a totally unrelated company for the same purpose? Why does it matter where it comes from? Surely any company providing this sort of product would have reporting available - otherwise it would be a pretty useless product?

Second - if a ticket is invalid, and a Train Manager knows it is invalid, and is repeatedly accepting invalid tickets without taking action to resolve these irregularities - then like in any other job, I'd expect to be investigated and performance managed. Showing discretion on occasion is completely different to routinely accepting invalid tickets.

(This also relies on a strange conspiracy here, because Avanti as a franchise presumably doesn't really care all that much about the absolutely miniscule revenue a Train Manager is finding, it all goes to the DfT, and excess fares etc really is are a tiny rounding error in the scheme of things).

Third - think about how many train managers are employed by Avanti - hundreds across wide geographic areas. They're in short supply, fairly costly to recruit and train - and the franchise needs all the resource it can get. You're assuming that someone is actively spending time on reports looking for the slightest staff irregularity to then immediately pounce on them and get HR involved, open an investigation, disciplinary etc. It's frankly bananas, and sounds simply like a typical rail staff myth - "they're watching us". Funny how this all gets resolved once a pay deal incorporates it.

I also refuse to believe that Train Managers aren't trained on ticketing/revenue - perhaps not to the highest of standards - but I would bet my house that they receive training, and presumably mentoring.

 

[Krokodil]

Love how so many people on this forum are such experts on everything.

If you're going to drip-feed then you can't be surprised if no one can follow