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The Times: Labour considering cuts to Restoring Your Railway and dropping HS2 Euston

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The Planner

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I'm old enough to remember all the 'Electric Spine'.
We are all heading for the coffin in that case, Electric Spine is hardly an old project!
Could capacity be improved simply by having longer trains?
Only to an extent, and you still have the underlying issue of the infrastructure works.
I wondered , prior to HS2, if it would have been viable to upgrade and electrify the Chiltern Line. Maybe adding 4 track sections in between Marylebone and Aynho, then Leamington to Hatton/Solihull to Moor Street. The space is there. Trains going on to Worcester/Kidderminster etc. could have been hybrid stock like 801-5s.
Wouldn't be any quicker, only solves Birmingham, not further north and Marylebone can't handle the trains. Same as when everyone with rose tinted glasses said to reopen the Great Central as a solution.
 
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HSTEd

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And as conceived originally with Western and Eastern legs would have acheived that. As currently being delivered, Old Oak Common to Curzon Street/Handsacre, looks close to a (very expensive) white elephant. With an additional change for London journeys not starting on the Elizabeth Line and the time penalty of a connection at OOC what will centre to centre times look like for London to Birminghan via HS2 compared with current route. Which then means it has become a very expensive southern WCML bypass for some journeys
The problem, to me, is that the HS2 scheme only really delivers it's major benefits if all the phases are built.
There does not seem to have been much consideration given to what happens if the scheme goes badly enough that it is curtailed.

HS2 has now got itself stuck in the trap where it has gone badly enough to make it seem like a white elephant. On top of that, the curtailed version of the scheme seems unlikely to deliver enough benefits to change public perception post opening. At least not for a very long time.

We will just be left with a two thirds empty railway in parallel with the classic network as a reminder of the failure of high speed rail.
 
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The exile

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That was the one I was thinking of. I think those of us outside of London would feel pleased that Labour were taking on a rule which helps people in some of the nicer suburbs of London, but has no parallel in other cities*

* Manchester has an unofficial doughnut policy whereby the central area has limits on height and the bigger towers are on sites surrounding the "hole". However, that has been challenged by the St Michaels (or whatever it is called now) and some of the new developments on the old Manchester Central station approaches.
Bath also has a ruling about the skyline as viewed from Royal Crescent, I believe.
 

Topological

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Bath also has a ruling about the skyline as viewed from Royal Crescent, I believe.
At least when viewed from a ground level is not as restrictive as the reverse. Like the view in the Haywain discussed on the topic of Constable. In the case of St Paul's the rule is not that you should not see any buildings sticking up above the roof of St Pauls when viewing it from the area around St Pauls.

I think you can very quickly hide buildings behind the building being "viewed".

I just like the idea that there is a commercial solution that allows the funding of HS2 to Euston.
 

Yew

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...as did lying Tories at for the last 14 years.

I see a department of value for money has been muted by Labour, perhaps that can go some way to claw back unnecessary expenditure - on the railway, the tiers of unnecessary or duplicative management and consultants, removal of many unnecessary processes, and elimination of leasing and train operating companies.
Why do I feel like "Value for money" will be assessed in some sort of myopic quarterly fashion?
 

Bikeman78

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Cancelling spending on infrastructure is crazy. The UK already spends comparatively little on infrastructure.
I'm always astonished at how much the Dutch railways has changed in the last 30 years. Numerous four tracking, flyovers and diveunders. Work is still ongoing, e.g. Delft. We need more projects like Reading.
 

31160

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I would like to know how many of the soon to be officially dropped schemes were ever likely to get finished anyway, Ashington and Okehampton just used existing formations nothing new as such
 

lachlan

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I would like to know how many of the soon to be officially dropped schemes were ever likely to get finished anyway, Ashington and Okehampton just used existing formations nothing new as such
The DfT previously said
“Our Network North plan, redirecting £36bn of savings from HS2, includes funding for numerous further restorations including lines for Don Valley, Ivanhoe, Barrow Hill and Stoke to Leek – as well as new stations at Ferryhill, Haxby, Meir, Cullompton and elsewhere.”
At the end of 2023 (Source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...n=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target)

Appreciate they weren't ready to go but the question now is - where did the funding go? Has the £bns from HS2 already been used up or did it never exist in the first place?
 

geoffk

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I would like to know how many of the soon to be officially dropped schemes were ever likely to get finished anyway, Ashington and Okehampton just used existing formations nothing new as such
Which schemes are advanced enough to qualify as "scrapped" if the worst happens? Ashington is due to open this year, after that Camp Hill presumably, where the new stations are under construction. How far advanced is Southampton - Fawley, the Waterside line? Portishead appears not that far down the road to getting spades in the ground and Tavistock isn't really anywhere. unless developers pay for the whole lot.
 

Wolfie

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Indeed, though we are currently debating whether the "protection" can be justified and whether there would be any mass national outrage if such protections were waived to enable the funding of HS2 with development on the Euston site.
Typical price of everything and value of nothing mentality. That would have meant no special treatment when putting overhead power supply into the Bath section of the GWML for example. Similarly if they electrify Settle to Carlisle.
 

RoyalMint

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Couldn't they just fudge this whole project, and route a few of the HS2 services into Paddington?

You're still technically routing HS2 'into Central London'.

Also connecting to tube (&Liz Line), GWML, Heathrow Express etc for a fraction of the cost

The two stations are so close and already have a direct rail line, and no tunnelling would be needed. Free up space in PAD by cutting metro (Elizabeth Line now serves a lot of W. London metro)
 

hwl

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The DfT previously said
“Our Network North plan, redirecting £36bn of savings from HS2, includes funding for numerous further restorations including lines for Don Valley, Ivanhoe, Barrow Hill and Stoke to Leek – as well as new stations at Ferryhill, Haxby, Meir, Cullompton and elsewhere.”
At the end of 2023 (Source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...n=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target)

Appreciate they weren't ready to go but the question now is - where did the funding go? Has the £bns from HS2 already been used up or did it never exist in the first place?
It doesn't exist until the borrowing is created to fund CapEx by HMT. The are interim stage to allocating future funding.
 

jfowkes

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Couldn't they just fudge this whole project, and route a few of the HS2 services into Paddington?
Not without a major redesign. HS2 at Old Oak is 20m below ground level, you'd have to find a way of connecting that to the GWML.
 

Wolfie

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I'm sorry but London does not just belong to Londoners. Yes it might be nice for the residents of Hampstead and Highgate to be able to see St Paul's, but the rest of us too need a capital city that isn't just a monument to capitalism.
Agreed. See also Heathrow third runway. Virtually all of those in favour live outside of London and really don't care as long as they benefit.
 

yorksrob

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The DfT previously said
“Our Network North plan, redirecting £36bn of savings from HS2, includes funding for numerous further restorations including lines for Don Valley, Ivanhoe, Barrow Hill and Stoke to Leek – as well as new stations at Ferryhill, Haxby, Meir, Cullompton and elsewhere.”
At the end of 2023 (Source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...n=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target)

Appreciate they weren't ready to go but the question now is - where did the funding go? Has the £bns from HS2 already been used up or did it never exist in the first place?

Yes, this is lovely but the railway's been run into the ground for the past three years, so I was never holding my breath.
 

Mikey C

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Honestly, what is the cost of blocking the view of St Paul's from Primrose Hill?

If someone was going to put a massive tower block in the gardens of Primrose Hill then it would make sense. That is what we all have the "right to light" principle to prevent.

However, a tower as far away as Euston is only blocking a view. It is not genuinely impinging on the day-to-day life of residents in Primrose Hill.

I think if Labour put it to a referendum there would be very little sympathy for those fortunate enough to currently benefit from the rule.

IF there are similar rules in other cities that are also preventing the optimisation of national infrastructure then we should be repealing those rules too.
It's nothing to do with the residents of Primrose Hill, it's to do with the view from the landmark hill called Primrose Hill, loved by thousands and thousands of people who visit it.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's nothing to do with the residents of Primrose Hill, it's to do with the view from the landmark hill called Primrose Hill, loved by thousands and thousands of people who visit it.

I've just Googled the view and you can barely pick out St Paul's. It's the general city view that's impressive.
 

Mikey C

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The DfT previously said
“Our Network North plan, redirecting £36bn of savings from HS2, includes funding for numerous further restorations including lines for Don Valley, Ivanhoe, Barrow Hill and Stoke to Leek – as well as new stations at Ferryhill, Haxby, Meir, Cullompton and elsewhere.”
At the end of 2023 (Source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/polit...n=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target)

Appreciate they weren't ready to go but the question now is - where did the funding go? Has the £bns from HS2 already been used up or did it never exist in the first place?
The Sunak promises after the HS2 cancellation were written on the back of a fag packet. I don't think anyone took them seriously.
 

Snow1964

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Meanwhile, today has been chosen to announce extension of TPE 397 maintenance contract, so things still happening with rail

29 July 2024 – Alstom, global leader in smart and sustainable mobility, has signed a £10.4 million contract extension with passenger operator TransPennine Express to maintain their Class 397 fleet.

The contract will see Alstom continue to offer train maintenance, stabling, servicing and cleaning services for TransPennine Express’ 12 Class 397 – known as Nova 2 – five-car electric multiple units (EMUs).

The work for TransPennine Express will continue to be carried out of Alstom’s Traincare Centres in Manchester and Glasgow; two of five similar facilities the company operates along the West Coast Main Line. The contract supports more than 50 roles across the two sites, including production managers, site operatives and train movement operators.

 

Energy

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A few options:
  1. Sell and leaseback the HS2 rolling stock to pay for the tunnels. Rolling stock leasing is a very developed market but we'd be stuck paying the lease for 40 years.
  2. Fund it via debt and attach a local levy, particularly around Old Oak Common, to pay off said debt like the Northern Line Extension. Debt to fund infrastructure tends to have a good credit rating so should be possible.
  3. Cancel. This could leave the government open to criticism and put a poor light onto their infrastructure investment and have harmful long term economic impacts.
Euston Station itself should be possible to fully fund itself via oversite development. I can definetly see Labour switching this to a consortium to fund + build + operate the oversite development for x years to reduce their risk.

Remember that the Times didn't even put it as one of the key points in their article and only mentioned it as a potential option, later mentioning long term impacts in cancelling infrastructure spending.

HS2 2a is long off the cards unless the private route shows some willing options.

I wouldn't be suprised to see an indefinite delay on the Stonehenge tunnel.
 

HSTEd

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A few options:
  1. Sell and leaseback the HS2 rolling stock to pay for the tunnels. Rolling stock leasing is a very developed market but we'd be stuck paying the lease for 40 years.
There won't be much money to be made from this.
There are only 432 vehicles in the HS2 purchase, you'd be lucky to get a billion pounds.

And the state would end up paying for it many times over.

Euston Station itself should be possible to fully fund itself via oversite development. I can definetly see Labour switching this to a consortium to fund + build + operate the oversite development for x years to reduce their risk.
I doubt it, given the very low height limits placed on the Euston site to protect various sightlines to St Pauls.
The site is vertically constrained to the point that you won't get much over the top of the station.

Unfortunately I expect they will simply axe everything to pay for their very expensive day-to-day spending (especially the triple lock).
 

HullRailMan

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So the massive hole in the finances that has been discovered by Labour that was left by 14 years of Conservative mismanagement should be ignored?
The usual will happen Labour will get the country back on its feet over the next ten years hopefully and then the Conservatives will come in again and ruin it all again and so the cycle continues.
Nothing has just been ‘discovered’. This black hole was known about before the election but the parties, including Labour, chose to ignore it. Of course, it now gives the new government a ready made excuse to cut things and blame their predecessors.
Infrastructure is always an easy target to cut but has long term negative effects on economic growth. Meanwhile, we somehow have enough money to pay for a state babysitting service for pre-school kids. Bizarre priorities.
 

renegademaster

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Nothing has just been ‘discovered’. This black hole was known about before the election but the parties, including Labour, chose to ignore it. Of course, it now gives the new government a ready made excuse to cut things and blame their predecessors.
Infrastructure is always an easy target to cut but has long term negative effects on economic growth. Meanwhile, we somehow have enough money to pay for a state babysitting service for pre-school kids. Bizarre priorities.
The idea of free childcare is it's supposed to pay for itself by freeing up women to work formal jobs, but with the very high staff ratios daycares are required to have it cant be saving much
 

Energy

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There won't be much money to be made from this.
There are only 432 vehicles in the HS2 purchase, you'd be lucky to get a billion pounds.
£1.97bn for the trains & 12 years maintanence so it may be possible, but very close.
I doubt it, given the very low height limits placed on the Euston site to protect various sightlines to St Pauls.
The site is vertically constrained to the point that you won't get much over the top of the station.
There are some details here from the Mace chief, there was an article from a former high up at HS2 which talked about Lendlease funding it but I'm currently struggling to find a link.

It currently looks like while the station is possible to fund privately the tunnels will need seperate funding. This lines up with rumours that the Treasury were preparing to spend £1bn+ on the tunnels.

Anyway, speech is due to start 15:30pm so we should hear soon!
 

12LDA28C

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But none of those things require a faster train. When I take a leisure trip from Manchester to London I never think "I wish this journey was 25 minutes shorter": the journey is part of the fun.
And I am sure that freighters aren't concerned about getting their widgets to London 25 minutes sooner.

'The Freighters' should be sending their goods via rail instead of clogging up the roads with 44-ton HGVs. HS2 is designed to provide capacity to enable that to happen.

I wondered , prior to HS2, if it would have been viable to upgrade and electrify the Chiltern Line. Maybe adding 4 track sections in between Marylebone and Aynho, then Leamington to Hatton/Solihull to Moor Street. The space is there. Trains going on to Worcester/Kidderminster etc. could have been hybrid stock like 801-5s.

Where is the space at Marylebone to accommodate all those extra trains?

Bang goes any chance of a payrise for Drivers etc.

How so? Junior Doctors have just agreed a 22% rise so clearly there are funds available to resolve industrial disputes.
 
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Snow1964

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Live from Parliament, Rachel Reeves now speaking

A303 and A27 improvements cancelled

£85m of restoring your railway projects cancelled

Transport secretary to announce details
 
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