Far-right protests

[nw1]

Probably worth its own thread, this.

I'm currently out of the UK but deeply, deeply disturbed by the actions of deranged far-right extremists. What the hell is going on?

I see it's now spread to Sunderland:

Eight arrested and building burned during Sunderland unrest

Three officers were injured after facing "serious and sustained levels of violence", Northumbria Police said.

www.bbc.com

Police officers faced "serious and sustained levels of violence" after disorder broke out in Sunderland on Friday night.
Northumbria Police said three of its officers were injured during the unrest and needed hospital treatment.
Eight people have been arrested after a police premises was ransacked and an adjacent building was set alight.
Beer cans and bricks were thrown at riot police outside a mosque and at least one car was set on fire during the disorder.
It is the latest episode of unrest to break out in towns and cities across England following the killing of three young girls in Southport on Monday.

Seemingly these people are, in their own heads, avenging the brutal Southport murders but it makes no sense to me. They've charged the likely murderer, that is the end of the matter. Anger should be directed at no-one except for the likely murderer himself.

It seems these people are just extremist fanatics who are exploiting the Southport murders to indulge in their own Islamophobic, xenophobic and racist fantasies. There is one example of someone who was attacked merely for being black (shortly after the identity of the likely murderer was revealed), so standard racism has been added to the toxic mix, it seems.

Particularly disturbing is the lack of condemnation by the likes of Farage, and his initial comments suggesting some kind of conspiracy going on.

And him saying "it's nothing compared to what will happen in the next few weeks" or something similar. That almost make you think he wants the violence and thuggery to continue because it somehow justifies his view of the world. It really shows up Farage for what he is - a uniquely nasty individual in UK politics.

Rioting is of course never justified but in this case it seems there is no rational explanation behind it at all. It's all based on misinformation that a Muslim asylum-seeker carried out the murders and even though a non-Muslim non-asylum-seeker has now been charged, these people still want to indulge in their hate-filled fantasies. And in any case even if the murderer was a Muslim asylum-seeker, there is zero reason to carry out random attacks on mosques.

I'm not normally one for tough law and order measures but in this case, I firmly believe examples need to be made of both the people spreading misinformation and/or encouraging the riots online and the rioters themselves, and the longest possible sentences served on anyone found guilty. This needs to be stamped out.

It doesn't of course help that politicians - including Conservatives as well as Reform - have normalised fear of asylum seekers and immigrants in recent years. Nor does it help that Islamophobia has risen in the wake of 9/11 and 7/7. It almost seems that the widespread Islamophobia and xenophobia of the past 20 years have legitimised - in some people's heads - their violent and thuggish actions.

Going forward I hope Labour really drive forward a climate of tolerance of, and understanding of, people of other races, religions or nationalities - along with a tough zero-tolerance policy on spreading anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, racist, xenophobic or anti-immigrant (to give five examples; this is a non-exhaustive list) hatred.

 

[yorkie]

Absolutely; the far right need to be dealt with robustly.

The towns they have targeted all have a higher than average support for the far right (and had higher proportions of people voting for the disgusting 'Reform" party); if they tried it in somewhere like York, they would be vastly outnumbered.

 

[dangie]

Even though I know this won’t happen, and the reasons for it not happening, when I watch these riots on television I wish the government could send in couple of platoons of Gurkhas to sort it out. The thugs who target these riots wouldn’t be so willing to riot again…. and I bet the Gurkhas would love it….

 

[Cowley]

This stuff was clearly building up before the awful situation that happened in Southport. There was a big far right rally in London two days before:

Thousands join Tommy Robinson march in London - BBC News

Police said a major operation was in place to "keep the peace" between protesters and counter-protesters.

www.bbc.co.uk

Thousands of supporters of the far-right activist Tommy Robinson have filled Trafalgar Square in central London after a march.
He claimed the event was the "biggest patriotic rally" the UK had ever seen.
A counter-protest by Stand Up To Racism and former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn's Peace & Justice Project also took place in London.
The Metropolitan Police said a major operation was in place to "keep the peace" between the two protests, amid fears of serious disruption.

That march threatened to boil over and the events in Southport were almost* the perfect excuse for them to justify stepping it up into actual violence.

*I say almost, because they were trying put out online that it was was a Muslim illegal immigrant that perpetrated the stabbings in Southport as that would have suited their narrative far better.

This also feels like a way of trying to weaken a Labour government. Hopefully Starmer will use his considerable legal knowledge to good effect and get some of these people locked up for a while.

 

[Magdalia]

There is a long and sporadic history of summer riots in the UK. Examples I can think of are:

• 2011 Tottenham, Croydon and others mainly in London
• 2001 Bradford and Oldham
• 1981 Handsworth, Toxteth and Moss Side

Notting Hill in 1958 possibly counts too though that is before my time, and there are probably others going further back into history.

A common feature is the concurrence of:

• hot dry weather
• a loss of "institutional memory" of the previous example
• a trigger event

The initial riots have often been followed by "copycat" riots in other parts of the country. Social media makes it easier to mobilise people for this than in the past.

What the police could do with now is some heavy rain, which is guaranteed to end the rioting.

 

[brad465]

The irony that Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, one of the main far-right figures trying to stoke fears about Muslims/foreigners, has an Irish passport (as discovered by Canadian police) and has now fled abroad to evade arrest on contempt of court.

 

[najaB]

I'm currently out of the UK but deeply, deeply disturbed by the actions of deranged far-right extremists. What the hell is going on?

They see a window of opportunity to cause mischief and mayhem. What I don't understand is if they actually think they're going to achieve anything other than turn people off their cause (such as it is).

 

[507021]

Using the awful atrocity in Southport as an excuse for these "protests" is a shameful insult to the memory of the three girls who tragically lost their lives and their grieving families and friends.

All of these mindless thugs must be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law.

 

[brad465]

They see a window of opportunity to cause mischief and mayhem. What I don't understand is if they actually think they're going to achieve anything other than turn people off their cause (such as it is).

Yes this is akin to the disruptive climate protestors whose tactics have been counterproductive. However this latest incident has shown the hypocrisy of some of the authoritarian half of the political compass (certain the vocal ones): when protestors/thugs act on a cause they don't like, they demand tough sentencing and laws to stop them. But when the protestors/thugs acting on behalf of causes they like are doing comparable, if not more severe damage, they try and sympathise with them and talk about the causes before demanding punishment for those being disruptive. True law and order supporters would condemn law breaking of this sort irrespective of who it is.

 

[DarloRich]

Apparently these are just forgotten local working class people with "legitimate political concerns" - clearly the best way to express those "legitimate political concerns" are, checks notes, throwing wheelie bins at police, lobbing bricks, looting a vape shop and burning down a citizens advice bureau. Oh and getting swastika tattoos. FFS. Round them up, yeet them into prison.


Also we all know that action needs to be taken against the usual suspects & their outlets with their speculation based on untruths, huge if true/ someone said distribution of obviously incorrect information, intentionally incendiary "questions" based on those lies and those exploiting an awful, awful tragedy to further their own perverted ends. These people are bad faith actors & grifters seeking to create division and strife so they can feed off it and earn off it.

EDIT - and social media has been a total sewer this week. Bots, fake accounts and wrong uns joyously wallowing in their own racist excrement and throwing it at everyone challenging them.

EDIT 2 - and above all of this 3 families are grieving at the horrific murder of their daughters. Three little girls killed and these brainless, moronic idiots take to the street using that as an excuse for fighting the police. FFS. Tad angry about these people.

( first response on social media to any complaint is: but not angry about 9 girls stabbed eh? FFS. ARGH! )

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Using the awful atrocity in Southport as an excuse for these "protests" is a shameful insult to the memory of the three girls who tragically lost their lives and their grieving families and friends.

All of these mindless thugs must be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law.

Correct.

They see a window of opportunity to cause mischief and mayhem. What I don't understand is if they actually think they're going to achieve anything other than turn people off their cause (such as it is).

Correct again. It achieves precisely zero.

 

[HullRailMan]

Ah, I see the usual impartial talking heads are out in force on the forum today. Did you condemn the violence in Leeds a couple of weeks ago, when the police simply ran away?

Meanwhile, clearly this violence is being stoked by people looking for a fight and that won’t achieve anything. But, the underlying cause is anger and frustration at their views being consistently ignored or silenced. Feeling that the current levels of immigration is too high is a legitimate concern, as is questioning the merits of multiculturalism and how well people are integrating.

The PM hasn’t helped by simply dismissing everyone that holds that position as ‘far right’; indeed, his tone deaf response has only served to feed the anger. The usual politicians and the media continue to pump out platitudes and lies without actually doing anything meaningful to address the situation. I’m not sure that a dismissive tone from a government that 80% of the electorate didn’t vote for helps either.

What’s needed on all sides is to calm down and to actually listen and try to understand each others position. We’ve completely lost the ability to debate and respectfully disagree in this country.

 

[jon0844]

The bots on X are now suggesting that, as the riots get out of control and can't be defended as 'working class people just being angry', it's the work of Antifa (yes, many bots can't really adapt to UK politics and have been mostly US focussed).

It seems odd that all of a sudden, it has gone from saying these people have every right to protest to 'oh, no, they're not us' and distancing themselves. I guess all the people who said they were doing nothing wrong are desperate to find a get-out and not be seen as supporting rioting, especially in a street near families mourning the loss of murdered children.

They say the saboteurs are simply trying to set innocent, hard-working, working class people up and it's a ploy to get all protests banned, but they won't agree to the police arresting said violent protestors as they're being heavy-handed. Well, what it is you want then? These people are 'Antifa' and nothing to do with you, so you say, but you don't want them arrested so you can protest peacefully?

We all know the reality. They know the reality. As things get out of control AS THEY ALWAYS DO, there will be a lot of rewriting history from the likes of Nigel Farage etc. They know what they did, and the whole 'just asking questions' thing isn't going to cut it. But they won't be able to stop the hooligans fighting, rioting and looting - at least until the football season starts again.

 

[DarloRich]

Did you condemn the violence in Leeds a couple of weeks ago, when the police simply ran away?

and there we have it - talking points straight off social media. Funny you don't seem able to condemn the violence. See how that kind of statement works?

Meanwhile, clearly this violence is being stoked by people looking for a fight and that won’t achieve anything. But,

There is always a but, always an excuse.

What’s needed on all sides is to calm down and to actually listen and try to understand each others position.

There is only one side out on the streets causing bother. Stop trying to excuse criminality. What is needed is decent people to say this isn't on and we wont have it.

The PM hasn’t helped by simply dismissing everyone that holds that position as ‘far right’; indeed, his tone deaf response has only served to feed the anger. The usual politicians and the media continue to pump out platitudes and lies without actually doing anything meaningful to address the situation. I’m not sure that a dismissive tone from a government that 80% of the electorate didn’t vote for helps either.

always someone else to blame eh?

 

[brad465]

Ah, I see the usual impartial talking heads are out in force on the forum today. Did you condemn the violence in Leeds a couple of weeks ago, when the police simply ran away?

Plenty of people condemned the Leeds violence, including the government who are condemning the current violence.

Leeds: Home Secretary Yvette Cooper visits city after unrest

Yvette Cooper MP has said those who sparked the disturbances will face full force of the law.

www.bbc.co.uk

The home secretary has condemned violent disorder that broke out on the streets of Leeds, describing it as "audacious criminality".
Five people have been arrested after trouble flared in the Harehills area on Thursday when officers responded to a child protection issue.
Videos on social media showed crowds of people in the streets and a bus was later set on fire and a police car flipped over.
Speaking at the city’s Elland Road police station Yvette Cooper said those responsible should feel the "full force of the law".
Ms Cooper said: "I've been talking to West Yorkshire Police officers and also to local community leaders about the action they are taking in response to these unacceptable scenes of disorder and criminality that we saw last night.
"Many people will have seen on social media some of the really shocking scenes of audacious criminality and that’s why it’s really important that those individuals face the full force of the law and that’s one of the issues police have been talking to me about this evening."
Asked about footage circulating online which appeared to show police officers dragging a child out of a house and the anger in the community, Ms Cooper said: "Well, I think what we saw last night was the scenes of criminality with the bus being set alight, with the attack on the police cars.
"And we've also seen some issues around misinformation about the police having to respond to a complex child protection incident."

The PM hasn’t helped by simply dismissing everyone that holds that position as ‘far right’; indeed, his tone deaf response has only served to feed the anger. The usual politicians and the media continue to pump out platitudes and lies without actually doing anything meaningful to address the situation. I’m not sure that a dismissive tone from a government that 80% of the electorate didn’t vote for helps either.

Can I look forward to seeing you help campaign for proportional representation then?

What’s needed on all sides is to calm down and to actually listen and try to understand each others position. We’ve completely lost the ability to debate and respectfully disagree in this country.

So you'll support social media being shut down then, because none of this will happen unless it is. Firstly because it encourages all extremes to speak out, especially where content moderation is poor. Second, because misinformation and the difficulty many have in being able to identify it, is the primary root cause of the current unrest.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==

What the police could do with now is some heavy rain, which is guaranteed to end the rioting.

Unfortunately the most reliable rain is confined to Scotland over the next few days. There is rain forecast further south, but it may not coincide with the optimum timings that unrest may occur in. The weather is meant to be cooler today and tomorrow though, which may partially help.

 

[jon0844]

Nobody will ever close social media down, but making the site owners responsible for the actions of its users (as a publisher of their comments) would soon change things. These people would be blocked and kicked in no time. Facebook, X etc are not going to keep paying fines indefinitely.

And before anyone goes on about 'freE spEeCh', let's all pause to remind ourselves of what that means relating to your freedom from the Government, not private entities.

Let these neanderthals go back to ranting in their local Wetherspoons about the state of the world, and if Tim Martin saw fit he could chuck them out too.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ah, I see the usual impartial talking heads are out in force on the forum today. Did you condemn the violence in Leeds a couple of weeks ago, when the police simply ran away?

I suppose as most of us share the same demographic (white cis men) as the rioters here it feels a bit more personal to us and more our responsibility to call out.

After all, if there'd been a white supremacist riot on a Monday and one in a Muslim suburb on a Wednesday, I'm not sure the local imam, while condemning the violence committed by his brethren, would be sarcastically asked "well what about the white guys doing the same on Monday?".

Meanwhile, clearly this violence is being stoked by people looking for a fight and that won’t achieve anything.

Glad you're calling that out. Now, please link us to a post you made on here condemning the Leeds rioting. I assume there is one.

Feeling that the current levels of immigration is too high is a legitimate concern, as is questioning the merits of multiculturalism and how well people are integrating.

The PM hasn’t helped by simply dismissing everyone that holds that position as ‘far right’

He has not said that.

What’s needed on all sides is to calm down and to actually listen and try to understand each others position. We’ve completely lost the ability to debate and respectfully disagree in this country.

Well, you could start by showing us where and how the PM called everyone who has concerns about immigration or multiculturalism a "far right thug".

 

[Andyh82]

There is a long and sporadic history of summer riots in the UK. Examples I can think of are:

• 2011 Tottenham, Croydon and others mainly in London
• 2001 Bradford and Oldham
• 1981 Handsworth, Toxteth and Moss Side

Notting Hill in 1958 possibly counts too though that is before my time, and there are probably others going further back into history.

A common feature is the concurrence of:

• hot dry weather
• a loss of "institutional memory" of the previous example
• a trigger event

The initial riots have often been followed by "copycat" riots in other parts of the country. Social media makes it easier to mobilise people for this than in the past.

What the police could do with now is some heavy rain, which is guaranteed to end the rioting.

You are right that a riot only ever takes place in each location once per generation

Whereas there were some older blokes with racist tattoos probably bussed into Sunderland, the main crowd were mainly local young lads, and some girls, probably getting involved in a bit of fun and excitement on a warm summer night. On the night they thought there would be no consequences

Once the arrests start being made it’ll all start to become real. Everyone will know someone who was involved and whose life was effected by a conviction, and hence there won’t be a riot again in that location for 20 years. I know this was certainly the case in Bradford

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

This kind of thing is as old as time - over the decades, I've come to appreciate that this sort of behaviour is probably a "necessary evil" in the grand scheme of things. I think these sorts of people are underestimated, in that they do have quite genuine and sincere views on the issues they are protesting, whether you or I think they are reasonable or correct is a whole different matter. However, letting the steam out of the kettle every now and again with these sorts of incidents probably stops an even greater escalation. It's the non-violent, unassuming far right or far left groups that aren't outwardly visible or recognizable as such which are the problem, the ones using social media to manipulate gullible minds.

They'll have their brief moment in the spotlight, have a few fights and do damage to property. The football will start up again, and they'll go back to that, and all this will quieten down, and a few of the most deserving will eventually be picked up and locked away for a little while.

 

[Trackman]

There is a long and sporadic history of summer riots in the UK. Examples I can think of are:

• 2011 Tottenham, Croydon and others mainly in London
• 2001 Bradford and Oldham
• 1981 Handsworth, Toxteth and Moss Side

Notting Hill in 1958 possibly counts too though that is before my time, and there are probably others going further back into history.

You can add Lewisham, August 1977.

 

[jon0844]

The 2011 riots were a bit different in that it was in response to the perception that a known drug-dealer on his way with a gun to kill someone, and being followed by police who wanted to stop this happening, was murdered because he threw his gun as soon as he exited the taxi.

People came out in support of this, and it quickly turned into an excuse of mass-scale looting and misbehaviour - spurred on by the use of BlackBerry Messenger to let people know what shops to go to, where the police were and reassure friends that the police were doing nothing.

The police wanted to stand back because of the circumstances of the protesting, but then allowed things to get out of control through that inaction. As we saw from those arrested later when 'enough was enough', lots of people with no criminal records got caught up because they couldn't resist getting free stuff.

I am sure 90-95% of the people had no concern whatsoever as to what happened to Mark Duggan. We certainly don't mourn his loss today.

The police will always have tough decisions to make on when to stand back and when to go all in, with the risk of inflaming the situation even more.

As with 2011, if lots of arrests are made in the coming weeks and lots of people sent to jail (if there's room) then it might send a message to deter others for a bit. But it will never end people wanting an excuse to go out and fight.

 

[507021]

It is perfectly reasonable to have concerns about immigration, but I and many others who do don't resort to committing acts of violence to express them. The far right are not interested in or capable of debating anything in a manner which could be considered reasonable. They have used the tragic deaths of six, seven and nine-year-old girls as an excuse to assault police officers (many of whom will likely have been at the scene the previous day), destroy other peoples' property and push their racist narrative. They attacked a mosque even though it was made clear the alleged perpetrator is not a Muslim. None of that is in any way acceptable and as I said in my previous post, it is an insult to the memory of those girls and their grieving loved ones.

The recent riots in Leeds were deplorable and those involved should be punished, but the key difference is that it wasn't caused by far right thugs exploiting a tragedy. The "justification" for the actions of the far right over the past few days shows just how despicable they are. If they actually cared about the girls and their families, then they'd have listened to the pleas for the acts of violence being committed in their daughters' names to stop, or better still, not carried them out in the first place. Those thugs all need locking up for as long as the law allows. There is no justification whatsoever for committing acts of violence, especially when a tragedy involving children is used as an excuse. Enough is enough.

 

[najaB]

It is perfectly reasonable to have concerns about immigration, but I and many others who do don't resort to committing acts of violence to express them.

Exactly. If you have a concern about it, go speak with your MP, start a petition, get a protest permit and stage a demonstration. Throwing bricks through windows, setting fire to cars and looting shops will do absolutely nothing to change immigration policy and all that people will see is the needless violence.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Throwing bricks through windows, setting fire to cars and looting shops will do absolutely nothing to change immigration policy and all that people will see is the needless violence.

indeed. It breaks my heart to see what is going on in my beloved homeland. Needless violence achieves nothing.

 

[najaB]

indeed. It breaks my heart to see what is going on in my beloved homeland. Needless violence achieves nothing.

Even more so given that some of the common complaints about immigrants are that they "don't follow our laws" and "don't want to integrate". So, how do these idiots react? By breaking the law and starting "us vs them" riots!

 

[Gloster]

For many of them it is just a chance to relieve the boredom of the hot weather, loot a few things and have a go at the police who they often come up against. If some devious right-wing voices feed them with a lie that makes them feel justified and standing up for something or other, all the better (for the right-wing voices that will melt away once the shot hits the fan).

 

[birchesgreen]

Football will be back in a week or so, they'll go back to hitting each other.

 

[Gloster]

Football will be back in a week or so, they'll go back to hitting each other.

Did football ever go away?

With the situation in Sunderland, I wonder if any of them will have to go Citizens Advice for help for problem resulting from them setting fire to…Citizens Advice’s office. I read somewhere that the brave boy who got bitten on the backside by a police dog was in tears when he appeared in court: a real hard man.

 

[Strathclyder]

The racist, bigoted scum who have exploited this unimaginable tragedy in Southport and twisted it into an excuse to riot and cause chaos are beneath contempt. Hope the book gets thrown at all of them hard and are made examples of. Sadly, such opportunistic vermin will always be on the lookout for the perfect excuse to whip their fellow travellers up into a frenzy if they smell an opportunity to further their repulsive movement; social media makes this all too easy.

As far as I'm concerned, the only people who really matter here are the victims, their familes, friends and the wider community in Southport at the center of all this. Can't even begin to imagine what they're going through, even before their living nightmare was so grotesquely exploited.

The irony that Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, one of the main far-right figures trying to stoke fears about Muslims/foreigners, has an Irish passport (as discovered by Canadian police) and has now fled abroad to evade arrest on contempt of court.

Bravely turned his tail and fled when he faced actual consequences. Snivelling little weasel. Should've had his passport revoked imho.

Even more so given that some of the common complaints about immigrants are that they "don't follow our laws" and "don't want to integrate". So, how do these idiots react? By breaking the law and starting "us vs them" riots!

The mere concept of irony would make these idiots' brains short-circuit, so I wouldn't bother trying to explain it to them. But I wager the primary instigators of this know full well what it means and simply don't care if they think it helps further this repugnant movement of theirs.

 

[Iskra]

We are in turbulent times, and I concur with those that have raised the warm weather as a recurring factor for disorder and louty behaviour in this country, it certainly brings the idiots out. Warm weather, holiday season and the remotest political turbulence seems to be enough of an excuse.

We seem to live in an increasingly polarised world, where the middle ground has eroded away. I think this is accentuated by the rise of the internet/social media, as it's the extremes of arguments that get attention and the naïve feel the need to be on a 'side.'

It's not just the far right though, a few weeks ago I travelled through Leeds city centre and two sets of people with different views and flags were yelling at each other across a square with a line of police in the middle, some using loudspeakers. It was an extremely off-putting scene in stark contrast with the general pleasant atmosphere of the city, and I thought it a very strange way of spending a Saturday afternoon. Perhaps we need to re-evaluate what is acceptable in terms of protesting in this country, is it even necessary at all anymore when people can put their views on the internet? Where, only those that wish to engage with them, then have to.