ASLEF - LNER drivers to strike every Sat & Sun for 3 months from 31 Aug - Now called off

[GRALISTAIR]

Hopefully GBR will hire more drivers and things will improve- I would be p****d off if I had to work more than 1 weekend per month.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Certain people who are posting in this thread need to realise that an employer does not own its employees and that we no longer live in Victorian times.

Time off is precious. It allows us to connect with family and friends; this is especially important when one starts work at silly'o'clock in the morning and, at the other end of the scale, finishes at stupid o'clock in the morning. These are things that we accept as shift workers; it goes with the territory.

However, there's nothing worse than when your long-planned weekend off is interrupted by a call from your boss asking you to cover a shift because of a staff shortage. I used to work a 4-on, 2-off pattern which meant that I only ever had Saturday and Sunday off once every seven weeks and it was totally frustrating to be phoned at 6am on that Saturday to be asked to come into work.

Sometimes you have to say "no"; it's not because you're unwilling to help the business or your colleagues, but simply because your own life outside of work comes first. As far as I'm concerned, if you fulfil your contractual obligations, your employer has no cause for complaint, especially if they fail to recruit sufficient staff to meet the needs of the business.

I'd be interested to know how many of the critics in this thread work nine-to-five and wouldn't ever consider working beyond their contracted hours without overtime payments.

Some people have also failed to considered that, in many industries, it could be, or is, illegal to work more than you are able to.
I've spent time working in many industries, one of them being logistics.

Driving time for HGV drivers is measured by tachographs.
If pressure was placed on a driver to do more hours and break driving regulations, the tachograph readings will reach the regulator (the DVSA), and the driver will receive an infringement on their record for working more than the law permits.

If these are repeated, you can be fined or even prosecuted as fatigue or the potential for fatigue is a contributory factor in many accidents, and the average risk with a HGV is so much greater in terms of the likelihood of fatalities, compared to a bus, coach or private car.

Now, with the operation of trains on railways being a similarly safety-critical industry, where fatigue is a major concern, can other members not see the similarity and see that repeated pressure to work overtime is dangerous?

 

[dk1]

Especially in the cab

Was so obvious in a 321 cab as I passed them too!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2024 ==

Was only saying the other day how rare it is now to see them in cab. Used to be piles of daily papers along with the odd magazine.

 

[newtownmgr]

Hopefully GBR will hire more drivers and things will improve- I would be p****d off if I had to work more than 1 weekend per month.

Well as we work 2 out of 3 Saturdays and depending on contract 1 to 2 Sundays a month good luck with that!

 

[Bald Rick]

Have those scenarios included removal of LNER management ?

Yes.

Hopefully GBR will hire more drivers and things will improve

LNER have been recruiting heavily for some time. As have most TOCs, several of which now have substantially more drivers than they have ever had.

Was only saying the other day how rare it is now to see them in cab. Used to be piles of daily papers along with the odd magazine.

When you say ‘odd magazine’……

 

[Jan Mayen]

I see LNER have stopped selling tickets for the first weekend of strikes. Anyone know why they haven't stopped selling for all of them?

 

[Bald Rick]

Hopefully GBR will hire more drivers and things will improve- I would be p****d off if I had to work more than 1 weekend per month.

Just seen this. When you join the railway for a job that is in the front line, you do so in the knowledge that the railway is a 24/7 operation for the most part. For traincrew, and taking the network as a whole, Saturdays have about 90% as much work as a Monday to Friday, and Sundays perhaps 60%. This does of course vary widely by TOC. But, on average, if weekends are part of a standard roster, you could expect Saturdays to be 15% of your working hours and Sundays to be 10%. Or put another way, in a standard 35 hour working week, and a 16 week roster, you‘d have a Saturday around 10 times out of 16, and a Sunday 6-7 times out of 16.

This is just very rough averages, and simplified greatly, and varies significantly by TOC depending on rostering arrangements and the work required (ie the timetable).

It’s different for other parts of the railway, eg signallers where the signalboxes (mostly) are open 24/7 and therefore on a 16 week roster you will usually be doing 10/16 Saturdays and Sundays on 8 hr shifts.

Or if you are in track renewals management, you will do 16/16 Sundays (and not be paid for it)

 

[Falcon1200]

However, there's nothing worse than when your long-planned weekend off is interrupted by a call from your boss asking you to cover a shift because of a staff shortage. I used to work a 4-on, 2-off pattern which meant that I only ever had Saturday and Sunday off once every seven weeks and it was totally frustrating to be phoned at 6am on that Saturday to be asked to come into work.

As the senior Control staff on duty I regularly did exactly that, ie phone staff to ask them to work their day off; Usually because someone else had just called in sick. If the sick person was early turn the phone call would be made at around 0500! I was no more happy about that than the staff being phoned, and of course disturbed, but the alternative was leaving a post uncovered, with inevitable effects on the workload on other staff and response to incidents. Staff who did not wish to work overtime marked themselves 'Not Available' on the roster and in that case would not be phoned; Does such a system not apply elsewhere (or if it does but was ignored, I understand the staff's annoyance - Whether it is sufficient to cause the disruption being discussed here is another matter).

The key question for me is what ASLEF require to call off this dispute; Complete removal (ie sacking) of LNER senior management (to be replaced by who?) or just some form of undertaking to abide by agreements in future.

 

[357]

Just seen this. When you join the railway for a job that is in the front line, you do so in the knowledge that the railway is a 24/7 operation for the most part. For traincrew, and taking the network as a whole, Saturdays have about 90% as much work as a Monday to Friday, and Sundays perhaps 60%. This does of course vary widely by TOC. But, on average, if weekends are part of a standard roster, you could expect Saturdays to be 15% of your working hours and Sundays to be 10%. Or put another way, in a standard 35 hour working week, and a 16 week roster, you‘d have a Saturday around 10 times out of 16, and a Sunday 6-7 times out of 16.

This is just very rough averages, and simplified greatly, and varies significantly by TOC depending on rostering arrangements and the work required (ie the timetable).

It’s different for other parts of the railway, eg signallers where the signalboxes (mostly) are open 24/7 and therefore on a 16 week roster you will usually be doing 10/16 Saturdays and Sundays on 8 hr shifts.

Or if you are in track renewals management, you will do 16/16 Sundays (and not be paid for it)

Various places have agreements where staff work longer shifts at weekends in return for life days off. I get every other Sunday off and pretty much every other Saturday off where I am, except twice a year when I work Saturday and not Sunday.

 

[Bald Rick]

The key question for me is what ASLEF require to call off this dispute; Complete removal (ie sacking) of LNER senior management (to be replaced by who?) or just some form of undertaking to abide by agreements in future.

I think some detailed explanation of exactly what agreements have been broken, and how, would help discussions, no doubt. There must be a reason they havent been made public…

 

[MatthewHutton]

Given train drivers are paid pretty well I am surprised they do as much overtime as they appear to do. As when they stop doing overtime the number of trains run drops a lot.

So I really think that LNER should hire more drivers and stop depending on overtime for the day-to-day service.

Perhaps there should be some overtime to cover holidays in the summer or sickness in the winter where the higher usage isn't all year - but otherwise it really shouldn’t be being used as much as it is.

 

[exbrel]

Yes.



LNER have been recruiting heavily for some time. As have most TOCs, several of which now have substantially more drivers than they have ever had.



When you say ‘odd magazine’……

Modern Railways, Rail or Steam Railway...

 

[MatthewHutton]

I think some detailed explanation of exactly what agreements have been broken, and how, would help discussions, no doubt. There must be a reason they havent been made public…

It does sound a bit like LNER management have done something very bad in the last 24 hours or so.

 

[Sniffingmoose]

It's being discussed on LBC radio now. The presenter wants people to call in an explain to him what the LNER dispute is about.

 

[LowLevel]

However, what I can say is that I’ve gamed all the likely scenarios about how this might be brought to a conclusion (for my own curiosity, not because I’m involved), and I can see only one outcome that looks good for ASLEF, and that outcome does not look at all good for Government, the railway, or rail users. This is why I think this announcement today is so extraordinary, and a huge gamble by the ASLEF rep concerned.

Do you not reckon that this is a final attempt at calling a headline large lump of action with a few weeks notice to kick the management team into coming to a mutual agreement on how to conduct themselves going forwards with regard to agreements and so on?

That's certainly my immediate first impression.

 

[Thumper1127]

Innocent bystander here (ex railway but very much still pro railway) with no agenda. If one of the key issues is being called to be asked whether you can work overtime, simply block the relevant number(s) when you don’t wish to be disturbed. But if there is some agreement about being able to move your next shift by x hours given Y notice then unblock the number(s) at the Y threshold. Is that not a practical solution?

 

[Starmill]

I think some detailed explanation of exactly what agreements have been broken, and how, would help discussions, no doubt. There must be a reason they havent been made public…

Has it been kept confidential because it's something sensitive, or is it merely that it's a technical point that the general public wouldn't, and don't need, to understand.

 

[greyman42]

I think some detailed explanation of exactly what agreements have been broken, and how, would help discussions, no doubt. There must be a reason they havent been made public…

if ASLEF have such a strong case for strike action then surely it would be in their members interests to make their reasons for strike action public?

 

[eldomtom2]

Has it been kept confidential because it's something sensitive, or is it merely that it's a technical point that the general public wouldn't, and don't need, to understand.

I think the intended implication is that ASLEF are keeping them quiet because the infractions are only minor ones. Of course, I don't know if that's true or not.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

if ASLEF have such a strong case for strike action then surely it would be in their members interests to make their reasons for strike action public?

Transparency is often a very good thing.

 

[stephen rp]

As the senior Control staff on duty I regularly did exactly that, ie phone staff to ask them to work their day off; Usually because someone else had just called in sick. If the sick person was early turn the phone call would be made at around 0500! I was no more happy about that than the staff being phoned, and of course disturbed, but the alternative was leaving a post uncovered, with inevitable effects on the workload on other staff and response to incidents. Staff who did not wish to work overtime marked themselves 'Not Available' on the roster and in that case would not be phoned; Does such a system not apply elsewhere (or if it does but was ignored, I understand the staff's annoyance - Whether it is sufficient to cause the disruption being discussed here is another matter).

The key question for me is what ASLEF require to call off this dispute; Complete removal (ie sacking) of LNER senior management (to be replaced by who?) or just some form of undertaking to abide by agreements in future.

What was the ballot question?

And presumbly most drivers voted before the pay deal was announced.

 

[nuneatonmark]

I have no doubt that some TOCs management teams are pretty ****e, but this proposed action just seems disproportionate and very badly timed given the very generous pay offer. It just makes the unions look like they'll use any excuse to strike. A taste of things to come?

I do very much agree that more drivers need to be recruited, that is a fair point.

 

[Carlisle]

It sounds pretty similar to their dispute & resultant overtime ban at Northern

 

[AJW12]

I have no doubt that some TOCs management teams are pretty ****e, but this proposed action just seems disproportionate and very badly timed given the very generous pay offer. It just makes the unions look like they'll use any excuse to strike. A taste of things to come?

This will just be the beginning. They've bent down and given them a no-strings-attached deal for additional pay backdated two years, and ignored any attempt to bring the working conditions inline with any normal job. It won't end here - they know that they've got the government by the short and curlies. Huge wage rises, no reform, outdated practices.

I don't think they quite understand how low the public perception will be of them here....

(Interesting read: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...ay-rise/ar-AA1oU1zu?ocid=finance-verthp-feeds)

 

[BostonGeorge]

I don't think they quite understand how low the public perception will be of them here....

You might as well get a job with Talk TV at this rate. Public perception doesn't matter one bit. The outrage machine is forever in operation. The race to the bottom promoted by the right-wing media and certain political parties isn't going anywhere.

They are outraged when we strike, they are outraged when we settle.

We will never lose the support of those who actually care enough to read about deeper into why are striking. We will never have the support of those who read only headlines.

 

[yorksrob]

Whilst the drivers at LNER will probably have legitimate grievances, given that the Government has (we think) just broken the logjam over the wider pay/conditions agreement, it might be politically astute for ASLEF to cut the Government some slack and park this one for the time being.

Maybe try a bit of back door negotiation - a word in the Minister's ear, instead of generating negative headlines.

Afterall, the Minister hasn't been in place for long. They may be more willing to sort things out behind the scenes.

 

[Osian85]

This will just be the beginning. They've bent down and given them a no-strings-attached deal for additional pay backdated two years, and ignored any attempt to bring the working conditions inline with any normal job. It won't end here - they know that they've got the government by the short and curlies. Huge wage rises, no reform, outdated practices.

It is perceived as a great offer, but its still a pay cut in real terms which is what the fight was against. However whilst the offer does feel good to me (im very happy with it) I believe it was also tactical to reset the playing field of relations and gives a foundation for future negotiations whereby changes are coming, ASLEF have illuded to it already in the email to its members, some changes do need to happen and this offer wasn’t rolling over and giving in to all demands, it was giving a below inflation rise, that looks good to all, resetting relations and softening the blow of changes that will come further down the line.

However, I agree with others that this is a PR disaster for ASLEF; calling a big strike within 48hrs of settling the national dispute was a huge own goal as far as public perception and giving the media extra ammunition they didnt need! we will all be tarred with this brush now regardless of the details and truth.

 

[Efini92]

If you don't know what people are arguing for, then ask them. Making up an obviously weak argument and dismissing it is the strawman fallacy.

Some of the outdated working practices in parts of the railway industry include:

• Refusal to use electronic means such as iPads to receive communications such as late notices or TSLs
• Staff members claiming an entitlement to restart the duration of a break if a manager speaks to the staff member during the break, even as little as saying hello
• Claiming of "walking time" of 10-15 minutes for distances that can be covered in less than two
• Strict demarcation of locations where work will be carried out where there is no rationale or benefit to the business
• Demanding money for use of scanning equipment to read e-tickets
• Refusing to use videoconferencing technology such as Zoom for meetings
• Refusing rest day working and then objecting to other competent employees working those rest days
• Claiming of paid time off every six months to check that the staff member's health hasn't been adversely impacted by the microwave in the break room

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not state that all or any of these practices are in place at LNER or any specific TOC, and I will not respond to seriatim refutation or rebuttal. I am citing them as examples of categories of behaviour that belong in the history books.

You need to delete specific then your sentence will be correct.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Can Louise Haigh order any change of management at LNER with it be ing OLR or are her hands tied?

 

[Buffer stop]

Would a £600 rest day payment like XC and Avanti have sort the problem.