GRALISTAIR
Established Member
I would bet good money on it!I think it is odds on that the current MD at LNER has a short shelf life. You don’t cause this level of embarrassment to Government and think you can survive.
I would bet good money on it!I think it is odds on that the current MD at LNER has a short shelf life. You don’t cause this level of embarrassment to Government and think you can survive.
Thanks for the detailed explaination, makes a lot of sense more so now as to why ASLEF has moved with such Action.That's not far off. But there is a lot going on beyond that.
To be clear, this post is simply my own thoughts and a few my own experiences - not those of my colleagues and I certainly don't speak for ASLEF.
The official reason for the strike action (which I voted for) has already been detailed by ASLEF. My summised understanding is that this boils down to breach of rostering agreements and failing to follow the agreed to processes that ASLEF and LNER/VTEC agreed to follow.
This is exactly what has been happening.
The company has certainly tried to ignore rostering agreements, repeatedly now for some time.
There's been mandate and support for this action for some time.
TO BE CLEAR TO MAIL READERS, ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH PAY. I can't speak for others but a RDW payment / agreement wouldn't make me turn a blind eye to what's been happening either.
The railway runs on a lot of goodwill due to its nature. Without employing at least 2/3 drivers at every depot per AM and PM to sit spare small delays can cause big problems when the workforce isn't being flexible this makes delays worse.
Simply put it's costly to build in a lot of redundancy and I suspect the public would be likely pretty annoyed to see people earning 60-80k a year sat on their arse 1/2 days a month.
As a result of the previously "assumed" goodwill drying up, day to day operation has gotten worse with relationships between drivers and DTMs and some individuals at both the ROC and board level are at low point. In some instances that has resulted in quite poor behavior from management. All to often that's resulted in some at the company "demanding" what isn't agreed to. They know this and try it on anyway.
There has certainly been instances of drivers being dragged through disciplinary processes only for there to be found that there is no wrong doing.
The we have day to day poor management and generally toxic behaviors. Some examples I've experienced would be.
- Being sent to the "wrong place" when spare, or sent on conflicting jobs. (I've been chasited for being exactly where I was meant to be and sent to by management - whilst booked on for duty).
- Having start times changed without agreed notice.
- Threatened with "escalation" when refusing to carry out additional work that's not on my booked diagram (and that's happened to many more than me). Just what you want to hear when you're undertaking safety critical duties.
- Called on my work mobile at the small hours of the morning on rest days. I switch mine off, some don't.
- Had training / assessments delayed due to managers working overtime (driving).
- Witnessed managers / Trainers being paid £500 for approximately 20 minutes work to fill a small gap unable to be plugged with spare drivers or cover diagrams.
- Had at least one assessment moved to suit a managers overtime - IE they got paid for the OT and I was driving.
- A manager walking into the mess room and broadcasting the size of their payslip for said payments.
- Being publicly blamed for the cancellation of services that have been planned to be cancelled in advance (stood on a platform waiting for a set with my crew only to have "Cancelled due to a shortage of train drivers" announced as the reason for it being canned) You can imagine what myself and crew dealt with on the platforms.
- Being told to carry out non risked assessed movements.
- Being asked and encouraged to cut breaks short when arriving late into a destination by local staff who have been "told to ask" and themselves have been pressured into doing what they don't agree with.
I could go on...
One or two "not agreed to requests" once in a while is one thing, but it's at the point where something happens on an almost daily basis, if not to me then a friend. Couple that to managers being heavily "Influenced" to work against drivers..... It's no wonder there is a "poor" atmosphere that has certainly become toxic. That was well within the companies power to control and they haven't.
That's not far off. But there is a lot going on beyond that.
To be clear, this post is simply my own thoughts and a few my own experiences - not those of my colleagues and I certainly don't speak for ASLEF.
The official reason for the strike action (which I voted for) has already been detailed by ASLEF. My summised understanding is that this boils down to breach of rostering agreements and failing to follow the agreed to processes that ASLEF and LNER/VTEC agreed to follow.
This is exactly what has been happening.
The company has certainly tried to ignore rostering agreements, repeatedly now for some time.
There's been mandate and support for this action for some time.
TO BE CLEAR TO MAIL READERS, ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH PAY. I can't speak for others but a RDW payment / agreement wouldn't make me turn a blind eye to what's been happening either.
The railway runs on a lot of goodwill due to its nature. Without employing at least 2/3 drivers at every depot per AM and PM to sit spare small delays can cause big problems when the workforce isn't being flexible this makes delays worse.
Simply put it's costly to build in a lot of redundancy and I suspect the public would be likely pretty annoyed to see people earning 60-80k a year sat on their arse 1/2 days a month.
As a result of the previously "assumed" goodwill drying up, day to day operation has gotten worse with relationships between drivers and DTMs and some individuals at both the ROC and board level are at low point. In some instances that has resulted in quite poor behavior from management. All to often that's resulted in some at the company "demanding" what isn't agreed to. They know this and try it on anyway.
There has certainly been instances of drivers being dragged through disciplinary processes only for there to be found that there is no wrong doing.
The we have day to day poor management and generally toxic behaviors. Some examples I've experienced would be.
- Being sent to the "wrong place" when spare, or sent on conflicting jobs. (I've been chasited for being exactly where I was meant to be and sent to by management - whilst booked on for duty).
- Having start times changed without agreed notice.
- Threatened with "escalation" when refusing to carry out additional work that's not on my booked diagram (and that's happened to many more than me). Just what you want to hear when you're undertaking safety critical duties.
- Called on my work mobile at the small hours of the morning on rest days. I switch mine off, some don't.
- Had training / assessments delayed due to managers working overtime (driving).
- Witnessed managers / Trainers being paid £500 for approximately 20 minutes work to fill a small gap unable to be plugged with spare drivers or cover diagrams.
- Had at least one assessment moved to suit a managers overtime - IE they got paid for the OT and I was driving.
- A manager walking into the mess room and broadcasting the size of their payslip for said payments.
- Being publicly blamed for the cancellation of services that have been planned to be cancelled in advance (stood on a platform waiting for a set with my crew only to have "Cancelled due to a shortage of train drivers" announced as the reason for it being canned) You can imagine what myself and crew dealt with on the platforms.
- Being told to carry out non risked assessed movements.
- Being asked and encouraged to cut breaks short when arriving late into a destination by local staff who have been "told to ask" and themselves have been pressured into doing what they don't agree with.
I could go on...
One or two "not agreed to requests" once in a while is one thing, but it's at the point where something happens on an almost daily basis, if not to me then a friend. Couple that to managers being heavily "Influenced" to work against drivers..... It's no wonder there is a "poor" atmosphere that has certainly become toxic. That was well within the companies power to control and they haven't.
That's not far off. But there is a lot going on beyond that.
To be clear, this post is simply my own thoughts and a few my own experiences - not those of my colleagues and I certainly don't speak for ASLEF.
The official reason for the strike action (which I voted for) has already been detailed by ASLEF. My summised understanding is that this boils down to breach of rostering agreements and failing to follow the agreed to processes that ASLEF and LNER/VTEC agreed to follow.
This is exactly what has been happening.
The company has certainly tried to ignore rostering agreements, repeatedly now for some time.
There's been mandate and support for this action for some time.
TO BE CLEAR TO MAIL READERS, ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH PAY. I can't speak for others but a RDW payment / agreement wouldn't make me turn a blind eye to what's been happening either.
The railway runs on a lot of goodwill due to its nature. Without employing at least 2/3 drivers at every depot per AM and PM to sit spare small delays can cause big problems when the workforce isn't being flexible this makes delays worse.
Simply put it's costly to build in a lot of redundancy and I suspect the public would be likely pretty annoyed to see people earning 60-80k a year sat on their arse 1/2 days a month.
As a result of the previously "assumed" goodwill drying up, day to day operation has gotten worse with relationships between drivers and DTMs and some individuals at both the ROC and board level are at low point. In some instances that has resulted in quite poor behavior from management. All to often that's resulted in some at the company "demanding" what isn't agreed to. They know this and try it on anyway.
There has certainly been instances of drivers being dragged through disciplinary processes only for there to be found that there is no wrong doing.
The we have day to day poor management and generally toxic behaviors. Some examples I've experienced would be.
- Being sent to the "wrong place" when spare, or sent on conflicting jobs. (I've been chasited for being exactly where I was meant to be and sent to by management - whilst booked on for duty).
- Having start times changed without agreed notice.
- Threatened with "escalation" when refusing to carry out additional work that's not on my booked diagram (and that's happened to many more than me). Just what you want to hear when you're undertaking safety critical duties.
- Called on my work mobile at the small hours of the morning on rest days. I switch mine off, some don't.
- Had training / assessments delayed due to managers working overtime (driving).
- Witnessed managers / Trainers being paid £500 for approximately 20 minutes work to fill a small gap unable to be plugged with spare drivers or cover diagrams.
- Had at least one assessment moved to suit a managers overtime - IE they got paid for the OT and I was driving.
- A manager walking into the mess room and broadcasting the size of their payslip for said payments.
- Being publicly blamed for the cancellation of services that have been planned to be cancelled in advance (stood on a platform waiting for a set with my crew only to have "Cancelled due to a shortage of train drivers" announced as the reason for it being canned) You can imagine what myself and crew dealt with on the platforms.
- Being told to carry out non risked assessed movements.
- Being asked and encouraged to cut breaks short when arriving late into a destination by local staff who have been "told to ask" and themselves have been pressured into doing what they don't agree with.
I could go on...
One or two "not agreed to requests" once in a while is one thing, but it's at the point where something happens on an almost daily basis, if not to me then a friend. Couple that to managers being heavily "Influenced" to work against drivers..... It's no wonder there is a "poor" atmosphere that has certainly become toxic. That was well within the companies power to control and they haven't.
To be clear, ASLEF will have taken action on what they've have seen happen themselves and following consultation at branch level etc.Thanks for the detailed explaination, makes a lot of sense more so now as to why ASLEF has moved with such Action.
LNER change needed but I don’t think it will happen at DfT - I could be wrong.Thank you for that very interesting. Whilst I have some tactical concerns with ASLEF's approach to announcing the strike action now, it is quite clear that there are a series of very valid grievances at play here. Hopefully a change of leadership at the DfT might allow head to get knocked together. If you don't mind me asking, what would you say needs to happen for the dispute to be resolved?
If you don't mind me asking, what would you say needs to happen for the dispute to be resolved?
No worries, thanks for sharing the thoughts you have on the causes of the dispute. It's very interesting/helpful in understanding what's going on and whyNot for me to answer. I have my own thoughts, but won't share those.
It already is and has been since June 2018...LNER to go Operator of Last Resort possibly a quickish solution?
Eh. They went Operator of Last Resort in 2018.LNER to go Operator of Last Resort possibly a quickish solution?
That would be a new one, stripping an operation from the operator of last resort to hand it to, er, the operator of last resort.LNER to go Operator of Last Resort possibly a quickish solution?
LNER to go Operator of Last Resort possibly a quickish solution?
What would that achieve? Except need to train several hundred drivers to cover all routes? And maintain that knowledge?LNER TPE and Northern are all OLR and all serve the North of England so perhaps they should be combined into one train operator with one management and a shared pool of train drivers.
I think it's pretty plain that hiring a replacement is necessary for a settlement. However, is it sufficient?The solution lies in the power of Gisby and his fellow DOHL directors to make either a change in the management policy at LNER and/or a change in the management itself.
I think it is odds on that the current MD at LNER has a short shelf life. You don’t cause this level of embarrassment to Government and think you can survive.
People who are pushing an untruth very often take that line - how incredibly convenient for them!Unfortunately, the poster who posted these largely incorrect comments specifically said they wouldn't discuss them.
You’d also have to persuade TPE and Northern drivers that they should be happy to go drive one of those pointy train that go t’ London for 15-20K less a year than their LNER colleagues (appreciate the pointy train is available to TPE too).What would that achieve? Except need to train several hundred drivers to cover all routes? And maintain that knowledge?
Wouldn’t be needed if the links were kept separate, ie ex LNER drivers only did ex LNER routes and stock, ex Northern drivers only did ex Northern routes and stock, and so on.What would that achieve? Except need to train several hundred drivers to cover all routes? And maintain that knowledge?
The root cause seems to be a lack of drivers for trains, leading to the need for overtime work of which is struggling to also be filled. The company is then resorting to paying managers a premium to fill the overtime requirement themselves. I would assume at least one point ASLEF is asking, is for more drivers to be hired ontop of some behavioral changes.
Assume this is linked to LNER's planned imposition of minimum service levels during previous strike action. Something ASLEF only got them to back down on by announcing additional strike dates at the time.
This tweet from Nigel Roebuck would suggest it is at least partly to do with that.No, nothing to do with that
"So those who snipe about salaries and morale need to fully understand that this whole LNER debacle was self-inflicted because they choose like lemmings to follow a government instruction that is now political history along with the protagonists that failed an industry."
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Labour urge ASLEF and LNER to meet ahead of fresh train strikes over working conditions
Transport Secretary Louise Haigh said last week that Labour had "put an end" to industrial action on the railways after ASLEF recommended a pay offer to members. But days later, the union announced new action over working conditions in a dispute with LNER.news.sky.com
Writing in the Sunday Mirror, Transport Secretary Louise Haigh said: "I've made my frustrations clear to both parties and my message is simple.
Follow this government's lead - urgently get around the table, negotiate in good faith and stop this action before it starts."
Nigel Roebuck, ASLEF's lead negotiator, said the union is willing "to listen as well as talk" with LNER.
LNER refused to comment.
That's not far off. But there is a lot going on beyond that.
To be clear, this post is simply my own thoughts and a few my own experiences - not those of my colleagues and I certainly don't speak for ASLEF.
The official reason for the strike action (which I voted for) has already been detailed by ASLEF. My summised understanding is that this boils down to breach of rostering agreements and failing to follow the agreed to processes that ASLEF and LNER/VTEC agreed to follow.
This is exactly what has been happening.
The company has certainly tried to ignore rostering agreements, repeatedly now for some time.
There's been mandate and support for this action for some time.
TO BE CLEAR TO MAIL READERS, ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH PAY. I can't speak for others but a RDW payment / agreement wouldn't make me turn a blind eye to what's been happening either.
The railway runs on a lot of goodwill due to its nature. Without employing at least 2/3 drivers at every depot per AM and PM to sit spare small delays can cause big problems when the workforce isn't being flexible this makes delays worse.
Simply put it's costly to build in a lot of redundancy and I suspect the public would be likely pretty annoyed to see people earning 60-80k a year sat on their arse 1/2 days a month.
As a result of the previously "assumed" goodwill drying up, day to day operation has gotten worse with relationships between drivers and DTMs and some individuals at both the ROC and board level are at low point. In some instances that has resulted in quite poor behavior from management. All to often that's resulted in some at the company "demanding" what isn't agreed to. They know this and try it on anyway.
There has certainly been instances of drivers being dragged through disciplinary processes only for there to be found that there is no wrong doing.
The we have day to day poor management and generally toxic behaviors. Some examples I've experienced would be.
- Being sent to the "wrong place" when spare, or sent on conflicting jobs. (I've been chasited for being exactly where I was meant to be and sent to by management - whilst booked on for duty).
- Having start times changed without agreed notice.
- Threatened with "escalation" when refusing to carry out additional work that's not on my booked diagram (and that's happened to many more than me). Just what you want to hear when you're undertaking safety critical duties.
- Called on my work mobile at the small hours of the morning on rest days. I switch mine off, some don't.
- Had training / assessments delayed due to managers working overtime (driving).
- Witnessed managers / Trainers being paid £500 for approximately 20 minutes work to fill a small gap unable to be plugged with spare drivers or cover diagrams.
- Had at least one assessment moved to suit a managers overtime - IE they got paid for the OT and I was driving.
- A manager walking into the mess room and broadcasting the size of their payslip for said payments.
- Being publicly blamed for the cancellation of services that have been planned to be cancelled in advance (stood on a platform waiting for a set with my crew only to have "Cancelled due to a shortage of train drivers" announced as the reason for it being canned) You can imagine what myself and crew dealt with on the platforms.
- Being told to carry out non risked assessed movements.
- Being asked and encouraged to cut breaks short when arriving late into a destination by local staff who have been "told to ask" and themselves have been pressured into doing what they don't agree with.
I could go on...
One or two "not agreed to requests" once in a while is one thing, but it's at the point where something happens on an almost daily basis, if not to me then a friend. Couple that to managers being heavily "Influenced" to work against drivers..... It's no wonder there is a "poor" atmosphere that has certainly become toxic. That was well within the companies power to control and they haven't.
What relevance is what happens in other industries? This is the railway and that’s how it happens in the railway.In no other industry does anyone need an "agreement" for managers to do work of a lower grade. If the managers are willing and able to do it, then it isn't anybody else's business. If the managers are not so willing or able, then that's a dispute between managers and their managers.
It isn't though. There's nothing in law or the rules that say it's not permitted. It's just down to some other operators having agreed to a specific provision.What relevance is what happens in other industries? This is the railway and that’s how it happens in the railway.
I hope there's some more news this week, and it's not left until a week on Tuesday. It may be rather late by then to have to restore the service.Thanks for this - it rather confirms what I have heard from a couple of drivers at another LNER depot but not in such horrific detail.
Ringing people at home when they may have their phone on for news of ill or elderly relatives and then trying to put the squeeze on to get them to cover jobs is pretty low and actually starts to get into “endangering the safety of the railway” territory because you want drivers not to come to the job rushed or stressed. These are 125mph trains with hundreds of punters relying on their driver to get them to their destination safely.
I also think this isn’t a case of LNER management being lent on. Some have enjoyed playing the previous Governments game.
I suspect we will see a return to proper depot linking under GBR, with progression through duty and traction type but, in the meantime, the TOCs need to work to one agenda and stick to their agreements, not play macho.
Gisby has a lot to do as he is heavily involved in the shadow GBR (which is being set up at pace, we hear) but he needs to come down hard on those who are intent on rocking the boat.
Be careful what you wish for.Time to remove the entire LNER legacy leadership - Many of whom still harbour the Tory dream of trying to destroy the railway.
New leadership is a must.
As if they're not subject to intense scrutiny by reps? I think it's fair to say that the unions are often more involved in crew diagramming matters than the train planners at times!Walking times are not claimed but diagrammed. They are set out by management - an example to suit your post would be Fenchurch Street where the messroom was next to the gateline but we got 10 minutes walking time. The reason for this was that the old messroom was much further away and the management were too busy to notice and update the walking times.
Plenty of Avanti staff walk all over their managers and the management has a very poor reputation in parts of the industry for various reasons.AWC trains are better staff more welcoming and service reliability a whole lot better than it was. Im pretty sure some of that is an outcome from pressure that can be exerted on a private operator still.
I don't agree with calling people at home but I think that argument is a bit of a stretch.Ringing people at home when they may have their phone on for news of ill or elderly relatives and then trying to put the squeeze on to get them to cover jobs is pretty low and actually starts to get into “endangering the safety of the railway” territory because you want drivers not to come to the job rushed or stressed. These are 125mph trains with hundreds of punters relying on their driver to get them to their destination safely.
I sort of agree.I don't agree with calling people at home but I think that argument is a bit of a stretch.