End in sight for the ASLEF dispute: Offer now made

[baz962]

I don't know the answer to this so it would be interesting to know for sure but knowing the French I doubt French Eurostar drivers are being paid less than their British counterparts!

Apparently they are ( Eurostar) the French side I believe are SNCF seconded .

 

[Krokodil]

That doesn't answer the question -without privatisation the wages would not have escalated to such an extent - or do you disagree ?

I'm well aware that the creation of a free market in train driving has resulted in employers having to compete to attract and retain staff. If there were a free market in healthcare you'd see a similar result. I just find it rather ironic that the same politicians who are all in favour of the free market when it benefits the companies are suddenly appalled that skilled workers have done well out of it.

 

[RailExplorer]

Back on the argument about drivers getting paid too much. It never seems to end. As a qualified driver myself, living in London, the £70k pay is ok. If it was £55k or less, I certainly wouldn't be doing this job. Absolutely no chance. But neither would I work in many jobs people appear to compare drivers to, such as driving buses - and none that pay awful wages, such as a shop.

If I wouldn't have entered the rail industry however (and instead stuck at the pilot route or the civil engineer route - both of which I'm qualified to do to a certain degree), I would be earning far more by now with far more career potential. £70k however is a fair pay package for the skills I have had to learn coupled with the fact I can't quit train driving, try something else for a few years and come back to train driving (unlike pretty much every other career on this planet).

 

[AverageJoe]

Perhaps an acknowledgement that although you may not agree with Privatisation it is largely responsible for the salary position you find yourself in now.

Good luck to you with whatever you can get I've got no axe to grind on that front.

it just seems that is the aspect of privatisation that is the Elephant in the Room that no one wants to talk about as it doesn't adhere to the "Everything was bad" mantra.

I don’t see why I have to acknowledge anything to do with privatisation, it happened waaaay before I was ever involved in the railway.

I applied for the job I ended up with and the wage I applied for was the wage I got.

I don’t see why any train drivers owe you or anyone else an explanation as regards that to be honest.

What you are really trying to get as is that you want us to admit that the wage is far greater than the job difficulty.

Is the job physically difficult? No

Is it mentally draining? Yes

Are there massive consequences to mistakes? Yes

Is there a lot of training and knowledge needed to do the job correctly? Yes

Do I have to give up a huge part of my social/family life? Yes

Am I at high risk of killing someone and/or hear about my colleagues going through that most weeks/months? Yes


Would I do this job if the money was lower? No


People always ignore the negatives of the Job and just think about the ‘lever’ and apparent 1 ‘button’ that we press.

 

[Sloughranger]

First time post from me. I'm just interested in how the ballot potentially could work.
Could one Toc stop the deal going through? Eg, if one Toc votes no by say 51% to 49% would that stop the deal?

Or is it a straight vote, so all drivers that are eligible from all TOCs vote and majority wins?

 

[DesiroOperator]

First time post from me. I'm just interested in how the ballot potentially could work.
Could one Toc stop the deal going through? Eg, if one Toc votes no by say 51% to 49% would that stop the deal?

Or is it a straight vote, so all drivers that are eligible from all TOCs vote and majority wins?

My understanding is the deal struck by the DfT with the Union now means that the DfT has given each individual TOC the authority to offer the deal to its employees. I’d therefore expect (though I am often wrong too!), that it is a TOC by TOC basis. Not sure what would happen if one TOC or more said no thanks. I assume back to local bargaining. Though I think it’s a really remote chance. It’s only a small minority that seem to be unhappy and if I’m honest it’s the same people that can empty a mess room when they start talking about any subject really.

 

[Sloughranger]

My understanding is the deal struck by the DfT with the Union now means that the DfT has given each individual TOC the authority to offer the deal to its employees. I’d therefore expect (though I am often wrong too!), that it is a TOC by TOC basis. Not sure what would happen if one TOC or more said no thanks. I assume back to local bargaining. Though I think it’s a really remote chance. It’s only a small minority that seem to be unhappy and if I’m honest it’s the same people that can empty a mess room when they start talking about any subject really.

Thank you for the reply

 

[AverageJoe]

My understanding is the deal struck by the DfT with the Union now means that the DfT has given each individual TOC the authority to offer the deal to its employees. I’d therefore expect (though I am often wrong too!), that it is a TOC by TOC basis. Not sure what would happen if one TOC or more said no thanks. I assume back to local bargaining. Though I think it’s a really remote chance. It’s only a small minority that seem to be unhappy and if I’m honest it’s the same people that can empty a mess room when they start talking about any subject really.

It’s a national dispute so I would have thought that although the TOCs present the vote it would be a group majority from all of the tocs that determine the outcome.

Although I could be way off with that.

It would end up causing more issues if one toc refuses and gets offered a better deal that the other who have already accepted.
Don’t think that would go down well at all.

However saying that TOCs will negotiate their own deals from 2025 onwards it seems so you may be right.

 

[DesiroOperator]

It’s a national dispute so I would have thought that although the TOCs present the vote it would be a group majority from all of the tocs that determine the outcome.

Although I could be way off with that.

It would end up causing more issues if one toc refuses and gets offered a better deal that the other who have already accepted.
Don’t think that would go down well at all.

However saying that TOCs will negotiate their own deals from 2025 onwards it seems so you may be right.

I agree but I also don’t think a single TOC going it alone would get a better no strings deal anyway. Tbh I think it’s a moot point anyway as I really can’t see a majority at any depot being silly enough to turn it down but I don’t always give my Colleagues the credit they deserve

 

[JamesT]

It’s a national dispute so I would have thought that although the TOCs present the vote it would be a group majority from all of the tocs that determine the outcome.

Although I could be way off with that.

It would end up causing more issues if one toc refuses and gets offered a better deal that the other who have already accepted.
Don’t think that would go down well at all.

However saying that TOCs will negotiate their own deals from 2025 onwards it seems so you may be right.

Employment law is all based around the employer and the employee. Although the DfT and ASLEF may have been negotiating at a national level, your dispute will be with whichever TOC you work for.

 

[Tractor2018]

It's a national dispute. TOC's will individually present offers, basically a copy and paste as instructed, but the ballot will be one national result. I believe.

 

[greatkingrat]

It's a national dispute. TOC's will individually present offers, basically a copy and paste as instructed, but the ballot will be one national result. I believe.

I don't think that is correct. In the original ballots for strike action, each TOC had a separate vote.

 

[AverageJoe]

I don't think that is correct. In the original ballots for strike action, each TOC had a separate vote.

But we didn’t have a vote to accept the pay deal.
So maybe it would be like those not in the union, they don’t put it to it but they still benefit from it, if that makes sense.

 

[Tractor2018]

I don't think that is correct. In the original ballots for strike action, each TOC had a separate vote.

I thought as the resolution offered was a national one then it'd be balloted as such. That's what I took from the webinar anyway........although I've maybe misunderstood as I was also up to my neck in housework at the time!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I don't think that is correct. In the original ballots for strike action, each TOC had a separate vote.

Correct. The dispute it national, but the industrial action and pay deal are to do with your employers.

Each TOC will offer their staff the same agreed national offer.

Same as with RMT back in December

 

[hello]

So £222 a week in 1998 for a train drivers wage, if the railway had not been privatised I’m assuming a train driver today might be on 30k a year, so yes privatisation has done the grade very well indeed, but had privatisation not happened and the driver grade was 30kish a year today would the job be as popular as what it is now? Or would it still be a job that no one actually wants to do apart from the people that might have a slight interest in the job? Because it’s all about the money!!!!!

 

[Merle Haggard]

So £222 a week in 1998 for a train drivers wage, if the railway had not been privatised I’m assuming a train driver today might be on 30k a year, so yes privatisation has done the grade very well indeed, but had privatisation not happened and the driver grade was 30kish a year today would the job be as popular as what it is now? Or would it still be a job that no one actually wants to do apart from the people that might have a slight interest in the job? Because it’s all about the money!!!!!

I've never been a driver (although involved in traffic costing) but just to point out that the £11,000 per year just before privatisation would be increased considerably by a series of bonus payments - mileage for instance. Presumably these have all been consolidated with the advantage of being pensionable. (my colleagues who had a low basic but high take home pay were disappointed by their railway pension; one reason to become management even though you never got paid overtime).

 

[Bald Rick]

My understanding is the deal struck by the DfT with the Union now means that the DfT has given each individual TOC the authority to offer the deal to its employees. I’d therefore expect (though I am often wrong too!), that it is a TOC by TOC basis. Not sure what would happen if one TOC or more said no thanks. I assume back to local bargaining. Though I think it’s a really remote chance. It’s only a small minority that seem to be unhappy and if I’m honest it’s the same people that can empty a mess room when they start talking about any subject really.

It’s a national dispute so I would have thought that although the TOCs present the vote it would be a group majority from all of the tocs that determine the outcome.

It's a national dispute. TOC's will individually present offers, basically a copy and paste as instructed, but the ballot will be one national result. I believe.

It is not a national dispute. It is several separate disputes, about the same issue, co-ordinated nationally and portrayed to be a national dispute.

The referenda (not ballots) will be conducted for each individual company, and reported as such. In the unlikely event that the drivers at (say) 12 companies vote to accept the pay deal and 2 companies don’t, drivers at the 12 companies will get the pay rise, and those at the 2 companies who voted against won’t and will remian in dispute. That’s unless ASLEF decide to ignore the referenda at the companies that voted yes and say the dispute is still on (in which case their membership will fall dramatically), or ASLEF ignore the referenda at the companies thst voted no and say dispute over, in whihc case membership will fall a little.

But as I said, extremely unlikely that there isn’t a resounding yes to the deal.

 

[S-Car-Go]

Yep, french Eurostar drivers are seconded from SNCF. The same was true of Thalys drivers. I guess the merging brings them all under 1 roof.

I believe beforre Eurostar became an actual conpany entity (it was just a brand and run by BR residual, SNCF & SNCB before), a french driver could be on a TGV to Lille 1 day, next day on a Thalys to Brissels, and a Eurostar to London the day after that. As long as they signed all the route and different tractions, UK & BE rulebooks etc.

Apparently they are ( Eurostar) the French side I believe are SNCF seconded .

 

[scrapy]

It is a referendum, not a legally binding ballot, like a strike vote would be. It gives the executive an idea of members views of whether or not to accept the pay deal. It is they who have the final say. If say it was 51% against accepting, the executive may still decide to accept as the chances of continuing industrial action would be slim.

It is also possible if one TOC votes against by a slim margin it would still be accepted as again there would be limited industrial action options.

 

[Krokodil]

I've never been a driver (although involved in traffic costing) but just to point out that the £11,000 per year just before privatisation would be increased considerably by a series of bonus payments - mileage for instance. Presumably these have all been consolidated with the advantage of being pensionable. (my colleagues who had a low basic but high take home pay were disappointed by their railway pension; one reason to become management even though you never got paid overtime).

Pre-Hidden it really wasn't uncommon for staff such as shunters to work for weeks or even months without a single rest day. BR paid poorly, and overtime was the only way to feed a family.

 

[ainsworth74]

Pre-Hidden it really wasn't uncommon for staff such as shunters to work for weeks or even months without a single rest day. BR paid poorly, and overtime was the only way to feed a family.

Indeed, it's worth recalling the conclusion of the Hidden report regarding the amount of work the technician which made the fatal error had been doing:

16.11 I find that cause to be the constant repetition of weekend work in addition to work throughout the week which had blunted his working edge, his freshness and his concentration. Because he enjoyed being involved in the end product of the work he had been doing during the week and also in order to achieve the lifestyle which he required he, like many others, accepted every opportunity he was given to do overtime with the result that in the three months before the accident he had had one sole day off in the entire 13 weeks. I find this to be totally unacceptable and to be conducive to the staleness and lack of concentration which has been manifested in the evidence. It was a practice which had in fact been going on for years in British Rail and was one which was well known to management. It should not have been countenanced and it was a contributory cause to the accident.

(Emphasis added)


One day off in 13 weeks...

 

[Merle Haggard]

Indeed, it's worth recalling the conclusion of the Hidden report regarding the amount of work the technician which made the fatal error had been doing:


(Emphasis added)


One day off in 13 weeks...

Perhaps it's worth pointing out that the high level of overtime carried out was done voluntarily. I've been in the situation (although not in what's now called a 'safety-critical role) where pretty much unlimited overtime was available and took the opportunity to work very long hours. There was no pressure by management to agree to it in my experience, rather the reverse - management expressed it as giving me the valuable opportunity to earn extra money.
It's also the case that there were drivers who hung around the booking on point on their days off in the hope of a 'job' arising. Controllers (when I worked in a control) worked 12 hour shifts 7 days a week (obviously the 'plan' was 8 hour shifts with RDR and optional Sundays) and were hostile towards a new, young recruit who might reduce their pay - anecdotally

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps it's worth pointing out that the high level of overtime carried out was done voluntarily. I've been in the situation (although not in what's now called a 'safety-critical role) where pretty much unlimited overtime was available and took the opportunity to work very long hours. There was no pressure by management to agree to it in my experience, rather the reverse - management expressed it as giving me the valuable opportunity to earn extra money.

Oh yes I'm not suggesting that they were compelled to do that much overtime but as the report noted management should never have countenanced staff doing that level of overtime and, by implication, should have taken steps to ensure that staff took adequate rest periods not just worked thirteen weeks with one day off because there was that much overtime going.

 

[Krokodil]

Perhaps it's worth pointing out that the high level of overtime carried out was done voluntarily. I've been in the situation (although not in what's now called a 'safety-critical role) where pretty much unlimited overtime was available and took the opportunity to work very long hours. There was no pressure by management to agree to it in my experience, rather the reverse - management expressed it as giving me the valuable opportunity to earn extra money.
It's also the case that there were drivers who hung around the booking on point on their days off in the hope of a 'job' arising. Controllers (when I worked in a control) worked 12 hour shifts 7 days a week (obviously the 'plan' was 8 hour shifts with RDR and optional Sundays) and were hostile towards a new, young recruit who might reduce their pay - anecdotally

This is exactly why it's important to pay safety critical staff well, so that they aren't too incentivised to hammer the overtime. Even the Hidden 18 rules aren't particularly restrictive - you can work 13x 10hr shifts between rest days without fouling the 72hr/week limit. No human won't get fatigued with that.

 

[Moderating team]

Let's now wait and see the results of the ballot on the offer which hopefully will be accepted for all TOCS.