Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson - yet another assistance failure

[lkpridgeon]

In so far as reasonably possible is the key - stations should be resourced to help people according to predicted demand, with some cushioning.

There might sometimes be a wait. It isn't just for example those using wheelchairs who book assistance to use a ramp. I used to work at a medium sized station which once a month would have a passenger turn up who required someone to push them in their own chair, someone to push their companion in a station wheelchair, another to push a trolley of suitcases and it was a 2 person job for the smaller staff to physically get them up the ramp and through the train door. That was up to 4 people required to manage them. In that time someone else might want help - a visually impaired person, someone wanting a hand with their luggage or whatever, and someone would probably have to wait.

For that half an hour two train dispatchers, a gateline assistant and the station supervisor would be totally occupied. Once a month. The rest of the time they'd cope. Should an extra employee be taken on to cope? No.

You can't have people sat doing nothing most of the time in case an unexpected turn up and go peak occurs - what you do have to do is be sensible - get control to send a message out asking guards to help with ramps or luggage or what not and explain there might be a short wait.

With respect, from your posts you don't use the passenger assist service - as someone who has facilitated it for many years people are quite understanding about waiting a short while. The key thing is not to leave them in no man's land - IE make sure they're off the train so they don't feel stranded and on to a platform.

And this is generally all that's asked for. As long as it's communicated to the passenger that there might be some form of delay, and that you're not being forgotten, It's mostly fine. The communication is key and often where it falls flat (my experience).

Some people with assistance are able to on occasion forgo more-so, some members of the public are willing/able to step in to lend a hand when needed. The best example of this was recently when I was travelling somebody helped a guard with a visually impaired person as the guard needed to be in a different part of the train due to a short platform but the service gets split so the passenger needed to be in the rear portion. A bit of communication with the passenger and someone else nearby and everyone was happy.

 

[HST43257]

You shouldn't be looking for it at all unless it relates to work you're carrying out, is the answer.

Oh exactly I completely agree. My point simply being that assumptions are made about those at fault or not so, and the answers are not there for anyone to see, so it’s important not to take speculation as gospel

 

[Malaxa]

In theory, all folks are equal. Though some are dealt a bad hand in life (upbringing/health/disabilities etc etc).

But some do have more influence than others; some like TGT, through their own efforts. Surely it's beholden on them to speak out and make a fuss to help others. If it was, say, Beryl Jones, who was stuck on a train, it wouldn't resonate with the general public (or focus a TOC) in the same way.

I don't think Beryl Jones would have much luck ringing up the BBC switchboard asking for a spot on the Today programme.

 

[800001]

I don't think Beryl Jones would have much luck ringing up the BBC switchboard asking for a spot on the Today programme.

I think it’s good that she is in a position to shout when it goes wrong, it seems to go wrong a fair bit for her, also for Doug Paully, how many other people each day across the network is passenger assistance failing who do not have a voice?

 

[Malaxa]

It was answered, and they did reply, and were doing as much as they could to help.

Hello Tanni - I am just trying to call through to the London Kings Cross team leader to make them aware of this. Apologies this is happening - We should have someone with you shortly ^Libby


10:15 PM · Aug 26, 2024

Apparently apologies are 'not enough'

"Tanni Grey-Thompson, the former Paralympic athlete, has said apologies are not enough after she had to drag herself off a London North Eastern Railway (LNER) train because no staff were there to help her."

Tanni Grey-Thompson says apologies not enough for having to ‘crawl off’ train

Paralympian sent series of tweets when her train arrived at King’s Cross with no one available to help her

www.theguardian.com

What then does the Baroness want to happen? Heads to roll? At Leeds? Kings Cross? Onboard the train?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Apparently apologies are 'not enough'

Tanni Grey-Thompson says apologies not enough for having to ‘crawl off’ train

Paralympian sent series of tweets when her train arrived at King’s Cross with no one available to help her

www.theguardian.com

What then does the Baroness want to happen? Heads to roll? At Leeds? Kings Cross? Onboard the train?

Presumably actual change to stop this and similar events from continuing to happen.
She is right, constant apologies aren't good enough, and are totally meaningless, when it continues to happen.
As I said earlier, the fact this is a very similar situation to one that happened to her 12 years ago is bloody damning on the railway industry imo.

 

[AlterEgo]

Apparently apologies are 'not enough'

Tanni Grey-Thompson says apologies not enough for having to ‘crawl off’ train

Paralympian sent series of tweets when her train arrived at King’s Cross with no one available to help her

www.theguardian.com

What then does the Baroness want to happen? Heads to roll? At Leeds? Kings Cross? Onboard the train?

I expect she'd like to see some actual change and progress so other disabled people aren't treated so badly.

In fact, if you read the article you linked, you'd see that's exactly what she'd like.

“It gives me a good reason to write to Louise Haigh. It’s about disabled people having dignity on trains. When are they going to do something about level boarding on trains?”

She pointed out that under legislation in the 1990s level boarding was supposed to be introduced by 2020. But the last government admitted that at current rates of progress this target would take 100 years to reach.

 

[Wolfie]

In so far as reasonably possible is the key - stations should be resourced to help people according to predicted demand, with some cushioning.

There might sometimes be a wait. It isn't just for example those using wheelchairs who book assistance to use a ramp. I used to work at a medium sized station which once a month would have a passenger turn up who required someone to push them in their own chair, someone to push their companion in a station wheelchair, another to push a trolley of suitcases and it was a 2 person job for the smaller staff to physically get them up the ramp and through the train door. That was up to 4 people required to manage them. In that time someone else might want help - a visually impaired person, someone wanting a hand with their luggage or whatever, and someone would probably have to wait.

For that half an hour two train dispatchers, a gateline assistant and the station supervisor would be totally occupied. Once a month. The rest of the time they'd cope. Should an extra employee be taken on to cope? No.

You can't have people sat doing nothing most of the time in case an unexpected turn up and go peak occurs - what you do have to do is be sensible - get control to send a message out asking guards to help with ramps or luggage or what not and explain there might be a short wait.

With respect, from your posts you don't use the passenger assist service - as someone who has facilitated it for many years people are quite understanding about waiting a short while. The key thing is not to leave them in no man's land - IE make sure they're off the train so they don't feel stranded and on to a platform.

What this case does highlight is that when things go wrong it's often in the evening - passenger assistance staff aren't often booked to work late at night and it falls on others to do it who aren't routinely involved. Passenger assistance bookings fall off massively once you get into the evening and it's not unusual for there to be none.

That is all reasonable enough. TY for sharing.

Apparently apologies are 'not enough'

Tanni Grey-Thompson says apologies not enough for having to ‘crawl off’ train

Paralympian sent series of tweets when her train arrived at King’s Cross with no one available to help her

www.theguardian.com

What then does the Baroness want to happen? Heads to roll? At Leeds? Kings Cross? Onboard the train?

Probably some actual change rather than useless mealy-mouthed claptrap followed by business as usual.

 

[Horizon22]

They’re hard working, dedicated professionals whose reputation is being dragged through the mud and I find it extremely distasteful.

Well I've also seen first-hand some "professionals" who were anything but and actively enjoyed trying to get there as late as possible.

If they were doing it well, they should have been there on the platform by the right coach in plenty of time. I appreciate if there was a late running and a clash and possibly the time of day and how many people there were around at that time but there is always a plan B/C/D to prevent issues like this.

For that half an hour two train dispatchers, a gateline assistant and the station supervisor would be totally occupied. Once a month. The rest of the time they'd cope. Should an extra employee be taken on to cope? No.

You can't have people sat doing nothing most of the time in case an unexpected turn up and go peak occurs - what you do have to do is be sensible - get control to send a message out asking guards to help with ramps or luggage or what not and explain there might be a short wait.

You make a fair point but of course part of the fragmentation of roles is that if NR passenger assistance colleagues were short-staffed/busy, the message may never get through to TOC control and even if did, such an issue of "there may be a short wait" may not even be deemed worthy of a very vague message, especially if there was service disruption (which some have alluded to on this particularly delay).

As you say late at night, passenger assistance normally "falls back" to a different source for example to station controllers or train crew to deal with due to the considerably lower numbers after 2100.

 

[Krokodil]

Because only reasonable adjustments have to be made.

20 minutes (or longer, would she have been carried back to Leeds had she not crawled off?) with no reassurance or information is not reasonable in the slightest.

I didn't realise being disabled meant consideration and patience weren't required.

If a train arrived at a terminal and the crew left without releasing the doors (so the passengers are trapped on the train, as TGT was) do you think that they would have waited 20 minutes before pulling egress handles?

I wonder if that guard’s arrival was causing a delay on a northbound service?

It doesn‘t matter. If a train is delayed, it is delayed. A guard should not let concern about a delay make them rush or cut corners. If they become aware that there is an issue on their original train (whether it's a passenger assist or filling out the defect book) then they should finish sorting that out before heading for their next working. The delay minutes won't be coming out of their own pocket. The passengers on the next train will just have to wait.

 

[Llanigraham]

I expect she'd like to see some actual change and progress so other disabled people aren't treated so badly.

In fact, if you read the article you linked, you'd see that's exactly what she'd like.

“It gives me a good reason to write to Louise Haigh. It’s about disabled people having dignity on trains. When are they going to do something about level boarding on trains?”

She pointed out that under legislation in the 1990s level boarding was supposed to be introduced by 2020. But the last government admitted that at current rates of progress this target would take 100 years to reach.

Can I note that in reference to that last paragraph the words "where reasonably possible" should be added, and that is also the wording in the Equality Act 2010.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a train arrived at a terminal and the crew left without releasing the doors (so the passengers are trapped on the train, as TGT was) do you think that they would have waited 20 minutes before pulling egress handles?

That has happened to me on a terminating DOO train. We didn't leave it more than a couple of minutes before using the passcom, which went unanswered (as the driver had walked off without releasing properly) so used the egress.

No way would I have waited anywhere near 20 minutes. If there was a safety reason not to release I'd expect communication from the driver within a very short period.

You can apply that to the disabled person to work out what the minimum needed is.

 

[rs101]

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be a requirement for a member of train staff to check the train is empty?

Perhaps she should claim delay/repay for the time spent waiting to be assisted off the train - after all, she wasn't able to complete her journey....

 

[Krokodil]

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be a requirement for a member of train staff to check the train is empty?

Isn't there some rule about unlocked trains and security checks at major stations?

 

[northernchris]

I feel for the passenger deeply. But I also feel for the staff who probably didn’t pause for breath last night trying to help and who’s names and reputations are now being dragged through the mud.

If the individuals involved have followed LNERs policies then they should be supported. Hopefully LNER will learn from this incident and look at what can be improved. I've noticed on services terminating at Leeds the crew will walk through the train shortly after departing Wakefield so they are at the front doors on arrival, and more often than not are first on to the platform. Stopping this practice, and making them walk the length of the train once the train has terminated could be a simple solution, even if only implemented once it's confirmed there's a passenger onboard who requires assistance.

 

[rg177]

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be a requirement for a member of train staff to check the train is empty?

Perhaps she should claim delay/repay for the time spent waiting to be assisted off the train - after all, she wasn't able to complete her journey....

A failed assist (and this is definitely a fail) usually gets you 100% compensation for the relevant leg of your journey (so 100% of a single) anyway.

However from my experience people aren't that bothered about said compensation, they want assurances it won't happen again.

In any case if LNER have half a braincell they'll be doing more to address this than a quick open and shut refund.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be a requirement for a member of train staff to check the train is empty?

Why?

At a terminus, unless the train is going back out empty (ECS) what is most likely to happen next is cleaners will jump on board, the next crew (if not the same crew) will make their way to the service and the platform will be posted (immediately if not managed locally*) and passengers will get on board. If the train is going out of service, then yes a full train clearance will be required from station staff and/or train crew.

*a few minutes before departure at Euston...

Isn't there some rule about unlocked trains and security checks at major stations?

Not particularly. If a service is going to be sitting around for 1+ hour, it might be good practice to have the train locked up (so random members of the public don't jump on assuming it is soon departing) but otherwise it can remain there so catering / cleaning / maintenance / next crew can do what they need to do.

 

[PupCuff]

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be a requirement for a member of train staff to check the train is empty?

Perhaps she should claim delay/repay for the time spent waiting to be assisted off the train - after all, she wasn't able to complete her journey....

The issue with this though is that putting a rule in for checking the train was empty at terminus wouldn't help an assistance failure en route, and equally some trains have very very little turnaround time at their terminus, barely enough in some cases for the crew to change ends.

On one of the routes I sign by the time I've opened the doors, grabbed my bag, and got off the train to change ends, everyone who needed to get off has done so and everyone who wanted to get on for the train's next working have already boarded.

If a train's going empty to depot or whatever then yeah it needs to be verified that the train is empty but at turnarounds it's fairly common that it's just a case of everyone gets off and the new passengers get on.

Someone checking the train is empty is very much a red herring in this case, as an industry we've got a perfectly acceptable (yes not perfect) national Passenger Assist app, if I'm working a train I can see who is booked onboard, I can book/rebook a passenger assist across any TOC from my work phone whether I'm working a train or just happen to be about on a station and someone asks - it should be being used properly by all involved. No excuses.

Isn't there some rule about unlocked trains and security checks at major stations?

It varies by operator, by station, and by security level, but in the vast majority of cases, no.

 

[Krokodil]

Not particularly. If a service is going to be sitting around for 1+ hour, it might be good practice to have the train locked up (so random members of the public don't jump on assuming it is soon departing) but otherwise it can remain there so catering / cleaning / maintenance / next crew can do what they need to do.

I'm sure that it came up in another thread (probably one of the 'why doesn‘t Euston board sooner' threads) that an unattended, unlocked train at a major station (such as the London terminals being discussed) needs periodic security sweeps to check for suspicious items. Just like stations above a certain category are checked at set intervals (with DfT inspectors planting dummy packages to test the staff).

It varies by operator, by station, and by security level, but in the vast majority of cases, no.

As this is a London terminal, I would have thought that this would be one of the more stringent stations.

 

[PupCuff]

As this is a London terminal, I would have thought that this would be one of the more stringent stations.

Maybe but that's a moot point isn't it? Are you saying the rules should be different for looking after disabled customers if they're going to a London terminal?

 

[Horizon22]

I'm sure that it came up in another thread (probably one of the 'why doesn‘t Euston board sooner' threads) that an unattended, unlocked train at a major station (such as the London terminals being discussed) needs periodic security sweeps to check for suspicious items. Just like stations above a certain category are checked at set intervals (with DfT inspectors planting dummy packages to test the staff).

How long are you considering 'periodic'? Even at a major London terminal with inter-city services, trains are unlikely to have a turnaround of longer than 60 minutes - let alone being "unattended" for that long - because as I said, there are multiple staff getting on/off.

There are "periodic security sweeps" of the station building depending on categorisation of both the intensity of footfall and current DfT classification, but no need for trains.

 

[Krokodil]

Maybe but that's a moot point isn't it? Are you saying the rules should be different for looking after disabled customers if they're going to a London terminal?

No, I was responding to a specific point about checking that a train is empty.

How long are you considering 'periodic'?

I'm sure that I recall 20mins being quoted. It was some time ago though.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm sure that I recall 20mins being quoted. It was some time ago though.

Certainly not true.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Apparently apologies are 'not enough'
What then does the Baroness want to happen? Heads to roll? At Leeds? Kings Cross? Onboard the train?

As far as I can see the LNER MD has apologised and said he will investigate and share the results.
So not even an explanation of the situation, let alone redress in any form.
I can see why a leading member of the paralympics movement would say the response was "not enough".
Of course David Horne may be having problems getting to the root cause.

TGT mentions an apology from DfT and a meeting with them.
That's very likely to be Peter Hendy, Rail Minister, who will know all about the industry issues on the subject.
The wider industry does continue to make step-free access a priority in station upgrades (eg lifts instead of stairs), sometimes at great cost.
TGT also is or used to be on the TfL Board and other representative bodies.

 

[Hadlow Road]

Whilst at Düsseldorf station earlier this year my wife and I remarked upon wheelchair users being moved in a small scissor lift along the platform and up to level access into the train. They could then wheel themselves to their position.

I do not know the cost of the scissor lift, nor the training required, but believe that this could provide a solution at stations with a greater requirement.

This solution (perhaps one of theTOCS might like to ask DB?) avoids the risks involved with using ramps and offers a good deal more dignity in use. And there was room for luggage!

 

[AlterEgo]

Whilst at Düsseldorf station earlier this year my wife and I remarked upon wheelchair users being moved in a small scissor lift along the platform and up to level access into the train. They could then wheel themselves to their position.

I do not know the cost of the scissor lift, nor the training required, but believe that this could provide a solution at stations with a greater requirement.

This solution (perhaps one of theTOCS might like to ask DB?) avoids the risks involved with using ramps and offers a good deal more dignity in use. And there was room for luggage!

But that still needs someone to turn up and operate it - I don't see how it solves the problems TGT faced here?

 

[norbitonflyer]

She pointed out that under legislation in the 1990s level boarding was supposed to be introduced by 2020.

I can't see how that was ever going to be achievable. There is, still, no standardisation of floor height and thus raising or lowering a platform for one class of train may make matters worse for another.

Isn't this what has happened at Ealing Broadway, that Crossrail trains have a floor height suited to the core stations, which are the same height as those built for HEx, and higher than is typical on GWR, which still runs trains with a different floor height. (Not sure of the detail)
Elsewhere, low floor 755s have to share platforms with EMR 158s at Ely and Thameslink 700s at Cambridge.

 

[dangie]

On a similar vein, if Tanni had turned up at Rugeley Trent Valley she wouldn’t have been able to access Platforms 1&2. She couldn’t travel on the Chase Line to Birmingham or the WCML to Stafford & beyond. For years the local Conservative Member of Parliament has been campaigning for disabled access with no success. Now she is out of office it’s probably back to square one.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Back in the 1990’s, it certainly was true that intercity trains were meant to be “swept” on arrival at London Terminals. I had to get involved in all these policies after an incident and when the rules were tightened up. The security boys (they were all male!) also wanted trains locked up immediately afterwards but people got out of that one by promising periodic sweeping. They were also very averse to any overnight stabling.

Like everything, as soon as the terrorist threat decreased, some practises waned over time and I suspect cleaners going through a set still meets any lingering requirements. Although I am surprised that recent events haven’t seen a move back to more stringent rules.

I’m not convinced letting cleaners effectively deal with anyone stuck on a train is a good idea. Someone who has greater responsibility for passengers should be looking out for passengers, people locked in toilets, damage that needs sorting out, etc. Whether that is the guard or someone who is shore based is up to the TOC but it is a specific task that needs to be undertaken.

Late nights, especially on bank holidays, are a time when cracks in cover (or no cover at all) can occur so you, as an operator, have to be alert to the possibilities. And it doesn’t matter how awkward or not the punter is (and I have known some regulars, some famous, some not, who most definitely are!), they deserve a seemless service, not to be abandoned at a major London Termini.

As for level boarding everywhere soon, that’s for the birds. The country hasn’t got the money to sort that one out, for now. There are more pressing priorities for public funds.

 

[Hadlow Road]

But that still needs someone to turn up and operate it - I don't see how it solves the problems TGT faced here?

Yes, you are correct, I apologise for adding an extra strand, but was trying to answer some of the previous observations about numbers of people and so on. You are exactly right that it does not address this instance, I was thinking of longer term solutions to equipment, rather than staffing, planning, co-ordination, management and the will to provide a service. Ah, this is too sharp and is not addressed to you, AlterEgo.