Services to Northampton

[geoffk]

Bournemouth has a regular (hourly?) Service to Manchester calling at Reading, Oxford and Birmingham New Street, fast trains to London and slower trains to Southampton and Weymouth.
Which connectivity gaps do you think need filling?

To Salisbury, with connections for Bristol, South Wales, to avoid the detour via Southampton, but I accept that's not going to reopen. And to Exeter and points west, which was only ever possible, but slow, via the S&D!

 

[Hadders]

Every weekday LNw train that calls at Northampton also calls at Long Buckby and Wolverton if it passes them. Down trains arriving at Northampton after 23.30 terminate there, so you are correct that these call at Northampton but don't call at Long Buckby, but they don't pass through non stop, either, which I think was the original point. There's very often a Sunday RRB but this also calls at each as appropriate. There is also a very late evening Avanti Up Glasgow that calls at Northampton set down only - without stopping at Wolverton or Long Buckby - but because of night engineering work it often goes Old Line with a RRB.

The journey routing from Northampton to the North and Scotland until recently was via Milton Keynes, and tickets were therefore valid via that double-back. Not much of a concession because they were the same as the fare from Milton Keynes. When the recent changes introduced stops at Rugby in the Manchester and Scotland via West Midlands service enabled travel more directly, funnily enough the fare remained the same.

There are trains from Northampton to Euston in the morning peak that don't call at Wolverton. If I remember correctly when it was 3 trains an hour off-peak one train an hour didn't call at Wolverton.

I also remember that when the Trent Valley servies changed to running via Weedon Northampton was promised a 5-minute connection into the Trant Valley service at Rugby. The very first timetable that came out had the connection at an unofficial 4-minutes. I wrote to London Midland asking them to 'ease' the public facing timetable (it ws a public timetable issue rather than a working timetable one) and to my amazement they changed it! Sadly the five-minute connection at Rugby is long gone....

Northampton does have cheaper routed 'via Long Buckby' fares to many destinations as well as 'Any Permitted' (valid via MKC) fares but fares to stations in Scotland seem to be 'not via London'.

 

[Eloise]

There are a few 1Wxx services thrown in during the peaks but in the Down in the evening these don't venture north of Northampton. In the morning they come from Coventry, Birmingham New Street and a Rugby starter. A couple of the Trent Valleys serve the loop at the extreme ends of the day. The new Avanti timetable offers a Northampton - Man Picc in just over two hours with a change at Rugby. Not bad at all.

Revenue Protection is very good to be fair. Over the last year my ticket is checked I'd say on one in three trips. Sometimes the guard or roving Revenue Protection.

Could it be better? Of course. I want a direct train from my local station to my destination. But this applies everywhere. It has a station, a regular and decent (depending on your opinion) service and does what it does. Personally I don't have an issue and I'm a daily user.

 

[gordonthemoron]

What I find most ridiculous, is that there a no services from Northampton for most of the day that stop at Tring, Berko and Hemel. Prior to Covid, one of the 3 an hour did. With the curtailing of the stopping service at Milton Keynes, you would have to change there, or Bletchley/Leighton Buzzard, as the stopping services from Milton Keynes leave around 5 minutes before the services from Northampton, you have to wait around 25 mins

 

[Eloise]

But what is the market for Northampton - intermediate stations? If it was there in huge numbers I'm fairly sure they'd do it. Ditto Marston Green, Lea Hall, Stechford and Adderley Park.

For years the service from Milton Keynes - Wolverton was two train four mins apart and a 56 minute gap. That was hardly attractive. Although as mentioned above sounds like few paid.

You can't please 100% of people 100% of the time.

 

[zwk500]

But what is the market for Northampton - intermediate stations? If it was there in huge numbers I'm fairly sure they'd do it. Ditto Marston Green, Lea Hall, Stechford and Adderley Park.

Pretty small, as Northampton has pretty low inbound movement and the other intermediate stations even lower, Birmingham, MK and London are the main destination points on that line.

For years the service from Milton Keynes - Wolverton was two train four mins apart and a 56 minute gap. That was hardly attractive. Although as mentioned above sounds like few paid.

The barriers at MKC were pretty effective if only going 1 stop. If you stayed on to Euston the service usually used the middle platforms with barriers, and changing to the Avanti usually put you on a later train due to the cross to the fasts at Ledburn.
The pattern has probably changed since I last did those journeys regularly a couple of years ago though.

You can't please 100% of people 100% of the time.

Indeed.

 

[Merle Haggard]

(a) There are trains from Northampton to Euston in the morning peak that don't call at Wolverton. If I remember correctly when it was 3 trains an hour off-peak one train an hour didn't call at Wolverton.

(b) I also remember that when the Trent Valley servies changed to running via Weedon Northampton was promised a 5-minute connection into the Trant Valley service at Rugby. The very first timetable that came out had the connection at an unofficial 4-minutes. I wrote to London Midland asking them to 'ease' the public facing timetable (it ws a public timetable issue rather than a working timetable one) and to my amazement they changed it! Sadly the five-minute connection at Rugby is long gone....

Northampton does have cheaper routed 'via Long Buckby' fares to many destinations as well as 'Any Permitted' (valid via MKC) fares but fares to stations in Scotland seem to be 'not via London'.

(a) Yes, I was wrong on that. I'm my defence, I asked RTT for all trains between Northampton & Euston that had a Wolverton time, and all were shown as calling. The logic error was that schedules for trains that do not stop at Wolverton do not show a passing time there. Sorry for misleading.

(b) the connection involved the narrow flight of stairs down from Platform 1, negotiating the circulation area behind the barriers and then the long ramp from the subway up to platform 2. Even without luggage requiring the lift, 5 minutes was tight from stepping off the train - after the usual slow LM/LNw door release, 30 secs after 'arrival time'.

 

[Hadders]

(b) the connection involved the narrow flight of stairs down from Platform 1, negotiating the circulation area behind the barriers and then the long ramp from the subway up to platform 2. Even without luggage requiring the lift, 5 minutes was tight from stepping off the train - after the usual slow LM/LNw door release, 30 secs after 'arrival time'.

Agree, it's not ideal although the Trent Valley serice would often be a couple of minutes late. Problem is without the service from Northampton becomes worse.

Wasn't there a plan for a 2nd Trent Valley service every hour that would go via Northampton?

 

[Horizon22]

Half hourly ain't bad for a train service. I regard that as "walk on".

The key is whether the two trains provide enough capacity for Northampton. (I've no idea on that one).

I think you really have to get to 4tph for it to be considered a “turn up and go” service. Certainly that is what TfL uses for London.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Wasn't there a plan for a 2nd Trent Valley service every hour that would go via Northampton?

The problem with services via Northampton is that they generally hang around there for 10 - 15 minutes, making them unattractive for through passengers. There's perhaps reason for this; it's very complicated to path 2 Northampton - London trains each way per hour, crossing one each direction simultaneously at Ledburn to reduce conflicting moves, AND to similarly path strict headway trains North of the town exactly in sync. Presumably the Trent Valley service similarly has limitations dictated by the two track sections and platform occupancy at Crewe.

The new service via Rugby is a considerable improvement. The previous via Milton Keynes service from Glasgow was also when the M.K. - Northampton service was unevenly distributed across the hour, and despite being L.M. 3 tph the Up Scotland via West Midlands offered a -2 mins or + 35 connection at MK. though the former could be achieved more often than might be thought because of the poor punctuality of L.M..

 

[Taunton]

Yes, that’s the normal ‘train enthusiast’ response but it doesn’t satisfy demand

You have clearly never travelled on a train from Northampton, the cattle class (2nd rate) alternative service between Euston and Birmingham is simply not good enough.

I'm sorry, but once expressions such as "cattle class" start being bandied around (let alone sneering comments about 'train enthusiast' to industry professionals) then all credibility is lost. There are a good number on here who could write a professional textbook on meeting demand, growth prediction, balancing cost to revenue, and such like.

 

[The exile]

. I was merely pointing out that the current service is sub standard.

What “standard” is it below?

 

[JonathanH]

What I find most ridiculous, is that there a no services from Northampton for most of the day that stop at Tring, Berko and Hemel. Prior to Covid, one of the 3 an hour did.

Why is that ridiculous? The demand southbound from Tring, Berkhampstead and Hemel Hempstead justifies eight carriage trains, and longer, whereas it won't do so northbound, so you end up with loads of mileage where the capacity isn't justified if you run through to Northampton.

Running quarter hourly out of Euston to the south end stations, and keeping them broadly self contained appears to be a good feature of the current timetable.

The problem with services via Northampton is that they generally hang around there for 10 - 15 minutes, making them unattractive for through passengers.

They aren't primarily intended for through passengers. It is just convenient to operate them in that manner. As you go on to say, timetabling services involving a loop and crossing moves isn't easy, and the dwell at Northampton introduces resilience.

 

[Eloise]

My travels show a good number of people travel across Northampton.

 

[Merle Haggard]

They aren't primarily intended for through passengers. It is just convenient to operate them in that manner. As you go on to say, timetabling services involving a loop and crossing moves isn't easy, and the dwell at Northampton introduces resilience.

LNw offer cheap advance Birmingham - Euston (via Northampton) fares at about the same (ca £20) fare as the Northampton - Euston price (tomorrow's off peak prices on NRES) so I'm not sure about that. About half of passengers remain on the train across the wait, from anecdotal observation.

 

[JonathanH]

LNw offer cheap advance Birmingham - Euston (via Northampton) fares at about the same (ca £20) fare as the Northampton - Euston price (tomorrow's off peak prices on NRES) so I'm not sure about that. About half of passengers remain on the train across the wait, from anecdotal observation.

Yes, of course, but my point is that they are doing so recognising there will be a wait in Northampton. You wrote that they were unattractive for through passengers.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Yes, of course, but my point is that they are doing so recognising there will be a wait in Northampton. You wrote that they were unattractive for through passengers.

The reason I thought that was because of stinging remarks about the wait once written by a railway industry magazine's 'timetable specialist', admittedly with respect to the Trent Valley services when routed via Northampton. He celebrated their diversion to the Old Line which removed the wait.

It is also the case that an enormous amount of money is being spent on HJS2 to, amongst other objectives, reduce the Birmingham - London journey time. It would be interesting to know the ratio of Birmingham - London travel between LNw and Avanti. Certainly, those on LNw regard cheap price as far outweighing time caused partly by the wait at Northampton.

 

[CHobbs]

Why is that ridiculous? The demand southbound from Tring, Berkhampstead and Hemel Hempstead justifies eight carriage trains, and longer, whereas it won't do so northbound, so you end up with loads of mileage where the capacity isn't justified if you run through to Northampton.

Running quarter hourly out of Euston to the south end stations, and keeping them broadly self contained appears to be a good feature of the current timetable.


They aren't primarily intended for through passengers. It is just convenient to operate them in that manner. As you go on to say, timetabling services involving a loop and crossing moves isn't easy, and the dwell at Northampton introduces resilience.

This is EXACTLY what I meant in the original post! It’s a second class service and route! I thought the intention with the WCML upgrade was to include the Northampton loop.

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I'm sorry, but once expressions such as "cattle class" start being bandied around (let alone sneering comments about 'train enthusiast' to industry professionals) then all credibility is lost. There are a good number on here who could write a professional textbook on meeting demand, growth prediction, balancing cost to revenue, and such like.

I’m sure there are, but that isn’t the point. It’s about providing a service that suits demand. Having a second rate rail service, which is what the Northampton loop provides, is not good enough. It would have been ideal to have increased the line speed north on the loop to 100mph with better signalling in order to improve services. The loop is often closed on Sundays too.

 

[The Planner]

I’m sure there are, but that isn’t the point. It’s about providing a service that suits demand. Having a second rate rail service, which is what the Northampton loop provides, is not good enough. It would have been ideal to have increased the line speed north on the loop to 100mph with better signalling in order to improve services. The loop is often closed on Sundays too.

What would that actually improve? It was looked at plenty of times (and still is occasionally) and there aren't massive benefits. Non stop from Northampton to Rugby it would save around 2½ to 3 minutes, less once you factor in Long Buckby and Rugby Parkway. It would get you to Coventry quicker where you would end up just sitting as the constraints are further towards Birmingham, same in the other direction. The signalling is fine. It has to be closed for maintenance due to the pounding it gets from freight.

 

[A S Leib]

Current annual journeys for Northampton (thousands):

London Euston 560
Birmingham New Street 148
Milton Keynes Central 111
Coventry 55
Birmingham International 33
Rugby 31
Long Buckby 28
Wolverton 22
Watford Junction 16
Bletchley 16
Manchester Piccadilly 14
Leighton Buzzard 8
Wolverhampton 5

So the overwhelming majority of demand, at least right now and without driving to another station, is south.

Corby and Wellingborough – Bedford, Luton / Airport Parkway and St. Pancras is 380,000 journeys per year. If most Kettering passengers use the Leicester services (I don't know if that's the case), Northampton gets the same London-bound level service as Corby and Wellingborough to handle twice the demand.

 

[Taunton]

The loop is often closed on Sundays too.

Actually, those of us with long experience of the line recall equally Sundays when the main line through Kilsby tunnel is closed, even going back to the times when you could lean out of the window and see the signals at Rugby set for the Northampton loop, and know you were going to be 20 minutes late at Euston. It works both ways.

 

[CHobbs]

Actually, those of us with long experience of the line recall equally Sundays when the main line through Kilsby tunnel is closed, even going back to the times when you could lean out of the window and see the signals at Rugby set for the Northampton loop, and know you were going to be 20 minutes late at Euston. It works both

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Yes, when traffic was less and the population was lower. I remember the Northampton diversions with 86s 87s and class 90s passing Northampton without stopping!
It isn’t acceptable these days for a town of 250,000 to not have a Sunday service! Rail replacements to Rugby / MK not ideal for getting to Bham airport for example .

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Yes, when traffic was less and the population was lower. I remember the Northampton diversions with 86s 87s and class 90s passing Northampton without stopping!
It isn’t acceptable these days for a town of 250,000 to not have a Sunday service! Rail replacements to Rugby / MK not ideal for getting to Bham airport for example .

I remember being told that drivers could get a Northampton diversion with no warning, it’s a shame the line speed is so much lower and it is quite a bumpy ride! My point exactly, the loop should have been improved in the upgrade to improve the quality of service Northampton could receive!

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Current annual journeys for Northampton (thousands):

London Euston 560
Birmingham New Street 148
Milton Keynes Central 111
Coventry 55
Birmingham International 33
Rugby 31
Long Buckby 28
Wolverton 22
Watford Junction 16
Bletchley 16
Manchester Piccadilly 14
Leighton Buzzard 8
Wolverhampton 5

So the overwhelming majority of demand, at least right now and without driving to another station, is south.

Corby and Wellingborough – Bedford, Luton / Airport Parkway and St. Pancras is 380,000 journeys per year. If most Kettering passengers use the Leicester services (I don't know if that's the case), Northampton gets the same London-bound level service as Corby and Wellingborough to handle twice the demand.

That is because there is NO OTHER option! Most Northampton people ‘get a lift’ to MK for services north! Especially when the service from Rugby was reduced to New St fast trains only

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Every weekday LNw train that calls at Northampton also calls at Long Buckby and Wolverton if it passes them. Down trains arriving at Northampton after 23.30 terminate there, so you are correct that these call at Northampton but don't call at Long Buckby, but they don't pass through non stop, either, which I think was the original point. There's very often a Sunday RRB but this also calls at each as appropriate. There is also a very late evening Avanti Up Glasgow that calls at Northampton set down only - without stopping at Wolverton or Long Buckby - but because of night engineering work it often goes Old Line with a RRB.

The journey routing from Northampton to the North and Scotland until recently was via Milton Keynes, and tickets were therefore valid via that double-back. Not much of a concession because they were the same as the fare from Milton Keynes. When the recent changes introduced stops at Rugby in the Manchester and Scotland via West Midlands service enabled travel more directly, funnily enough the fare remained the same.

///

"And there never will" (be a reasonable service)

Similarly process of thought - why ever build a bridge over a river? - very few people swim across.



Northampton has well staffed barriers. LNw d have Revenue Protection Officers in pairs, I see them quite often.

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Does 'demand' represent people who use rail currently, or would do if there was a better service? It should of course be the latter, but the methodology would be interesting to know. I've been asked to fill in a travel questionnaire about my travel patterns by rail when travelling by train, but have never heard of anyone being given a questionnaire at a motorway services area by an organisation representing rail to find out possible unfulfilled demand.

If indeed it's the former, see my comment above about river bridges.

You can still double back at MK, quite a few services offer that. Especially via Crewe then to MK and NMP

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What “standard” is it below?

3 + 2 seating and 75 mph

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Bournemouth has a regular (hourly?) Service to Manchester calling at Reading, Oxford and Birmingham New Street, fast trains to London and slower trains to Southampton and Weymouth.
Which connectivity gaps do you think need filling?

Northampton's link to Birmingham should arguably be quicker but then you run into capacity problems with Coventry to Birmingham. The London service is pretty good even if it doesn't have a one-stop Euston all day. Even to the Trent valley, you can go down to MK and double back or up to Rugby for the change. Yes the interchanges could be better especially as few Avanti stop at Rugby so it's the Euston-Crewe most of the time (Although the cheaper prices make that more attractive than avanti to a lot of people anyway). The only real gap in Northampton's rail service is towards Kettering but that requires a line to be reopened so is a wider problem rathe than just crap service provision.

Completely agree with you here!

 

[Eloise]

My train home this evening was 2+2 seating and was certainly doing 75+ through the Birdcage. Easily got a seat this evening on a peak time service. North of Northampton about six people in my carriage.

Do tell, where do the people of Northampton wish to go that isn't currently served then?

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Also am I missing something on Sunday services? This Sunday sees trains. It is closed some Sundays, not every Sunday. To say Sunday services from Northampton don't exist simply isn't true. Doing better than Coventry (pop 345,000 according to Wikipedia) this Sunday for sure.

 

[CHobbs]

My train home this evening was 2+2 seating and was certainly doing 75+ through the Birdcage. Easily got a seat this evening on a peak time service. North of Northampton about six people in my carriage.

Do tell, where do the people of Northampton wish to go that isn't currently served then?

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Also am I missing something on Sunday services? This Sunday sees trains. It is closed some Sundays, not every Sunday. To say Sunday services from Northampton don't exist simply isn't true. Doing better than Coventry (pop 345,000 according to Wikipedia) this Sunday for sure.

Why are you trolling? I simply made a simple statement at the beginning to state that Northampton’s rail service is not great. No intercity long distance services at all, only stopping services to London and Birmingham and only every 30 minutes. Are you seriously suggesting that people only want to travel to MK, Euston and New St? Yes London, obviously. I didn’t say that Sunday services don’t exist, stop twisting things, I said that ‘quite often’ on a Sunday there are replacement bus services. That isn’t uncommon.

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My train home this evening was 2+2 seating and was certainly doing 75+ through the Birdcage. Easily got a seat this evening on a peak time service. North of Northampton about six people in my carriage.

Do tell, where do the people of Northampton wish to go that isn't currently served then?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2024 ==

Also am I missing something on Sunday services? This Sunday sees trains. It is closed some Sundays, not every Sunday. To say Sunday services from Northampton don't exist simply isn't true. Doing better than Coventry (pop 345,000 according to Wikipedia) this Sunday for sure.

you have made your point quite clear, you don’t agree. That’s fine, point taken and respected.

 

[DarloRich]

As a former resident of Wolverton for 5 years who had reasons to travel regularly to MK Central (work) and Northampton (Rugby/Friends), Half-Hourly is not unreasonable for the demand available. In the peaks there is a fast service from Northampton to Euston which doesn't call Wolverton, recognising that the overwhelming majority of demand at Northampton is for commuting into MK or London. Most trains were formed of 8 cars, although 4s could appear off-peak and 12 on-peak.

Northampton also has, largely by virtue of being the depot location, fairly early starts and late finishes to it's services. Last trains out of Euston are past 1am, last trains from Northampton to MK (which was very relevant to me at one point) around 2330.

There don't seem to be many complaints from colleagues who do the Northampton > MK commutes on a daily basis about the service frequency. Rugby was a different argument until Avanti added stops into their services.

 

[CHobbs]

There don't seem to be many complaints from colleagues who do the Northampton > MK commutes on a daily basis about the service frequency. Rugby was a different argument until Avanti added stops into their services.

Rugby is a lot smaller than Northampton though. Yes, completely agree with you there re: Rugby

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Perhaps things would have been better if the Victorians had built the main line to Birmingham through Northampton (except that the direct route isn’t through Northampton).

 

[Eloise]

Why are you trolling? I simply made a simple statement at the beginning to state that Northampton’s rail service is not great. No intercity long distance services at all, only stopping services to London and Birmingham and only every 30 minutes. Are you seriously suggesting that people only want to travel to MK, Euston and New St? Yes London, obviously. I didn’t say that Sunday services don’t exist, stop twisting things, I said that ‘quite often’ on a Sunday there are replacement bus services. That isn’t uncommon.

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you have made your point quite clear, you don’t agree. That’s fine, point taken and respected.

I'm simply stating fact from years of daily observation and conversations. I've done commutes on other lines for years so can compare and contrast.

Looking at the art work on the bridge beyond the barriers whereby they are trying to find tickets to / from Northampton to everywhere it appears people are travelling to most places.

A lot in my office commute from there too, only complaint is when the service melts down normally due to unit or overhead failure. That has cursed it for tomorrow! Though over time LNWR have got reasonably good at starting up their 2Zxx all stations service.

Rugby - MK commuting became much better when the Trent Valley stopper went Main Line.

 

[Horizon22]

No intercity long distance services at all, only stopping services to London and Birmingham and only every 30 minutes. Are you seriously suggesting that people only want to travel to MK, Euston and New St? Yes London, obviously. I didn’t say that

Lots of similarly sized locations have no intercity services, all across London & SE. And obviously people don't want to just travel there, but you're not going to get everywhere-everywhere services at any location and New St and Euston are very well connected (and MK isn't awful especially once E-W rail gets going)

 

[JonathanH]

No intercity long distance services at all, only stopping services to London and Birmingham and only every 30 minutes.

When diverting Intercity services via Northampton with a stop would incur a near 20 minute time penalty relative to their current running time, it is difficult to see how adding Northampton to the network could be done, given the finite number of hourly paths into Euston and the number of places in the Midlands, North West and beyond that justify services on the route.

It is no different to Redhill's position on the Brighton line. While people in Redhill would arguably like services to the South Coast, the reality is that the majority of passengers on the South Coast are better served by those services omitting Redhill. Northampton is not somewhere people travelling longer distances want their trains to call at.