Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

[Starmill]

The thing I struggle with is why nobody can see that LNER is lying through its corporate teeth. It even took a while of arguing to get the likes of The Man In Seat 61 and Simon Calder to get it.

Indeed. I'd love to see the hard evidence of what they claim is "widespread availability of cheap seats". What do they view as either widespread or cheap?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2024 ==

As a profitable operation the subdidy is pretty much non-existent.

Sure if we take a short term view (this fiscal year only) and look at the OLR only. Not sure if we take a view spanning say the last 25 years all in the round, and if we include the amortisation of the assets Network Rail provides mainly for its benefit. Of course most of these ludicrous costs are as a result of Ministerial level decisions on procurement, but costs are still costs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's frustrating because if they just said "we know no rational consumer will be interested in paying more for the same thing, but we've been told we're obligated to raise more through ticket sales and take less in public subsidy and this is the fairest way to achieve that" I think everyone would have a lot more respect for it.

Bingo. It is the lies and the spin that is seriously hacking me off. This is about increasing fares and we all know it - why not just be - you know - honest?

Tomorrow, every single London-Edinburgh train is more expensive than the Super Off Peak was. ALL of them. Not one is cheaper (bar Lumo, but they of course have stuck their prices up in response too!)

Sure, we wouldn't like it more and still many many people would disagree. Many people would argue that the company is bloated, badly managed, and is vastly wasteful of the enormous public subsidy it gets. However we'd at least have some basic respect for being told the truth. It's always the being lied to that stings more than the cheating.

Indeed.

 

[Krokodil]

As of 3 June 2024, around 50 per cent of new semi-flexible fares purchased
in standard class cost less than the former super off-peak price it replaced.

...and the other 50% don't, presumably. Not to mention that the Super Off Peak was available in theoretically unlimited quantities (notwithstanding the reservation thing) but these new fares are quota-controlled.

As always, it's what they didn't say that matters.

 

[yorksrob]

The thing I struggle with is why nobody can see that LNER is lying through its corporate teeth. It even took a while of arguing to get the likes of The Man In Seat 61 and Simon Calder to get it.

The obvious conclusion is that the Labour government are colluding with it.

 

[JonathanH]

The obvious conclusion is that the Labour government are colluding with it.

The government's role is only to set high level policy. They inherited this one. If the industry says that this is the right way forward, and it meets a narrative of dealing with capacity and revenue, it is hard to see why the Labour government would stand in its way.

Passengers have been crying out for fares reform for a long time. This is simply enactment of those calls.

 

[yorksrob]

The government's role is only to set high level policy. They inherited this one. If the industry says that this is the right way forward, and it meets a narrative of dealing with capacity and revenue, it is hard to see why the Labour government would stand in its way.

It's a matter of language. No one's expecting the Government to do anything straight away.

They could easily say that they acknowledge the concerns and will review the project in light of its policy aims etc etc. However, all we seem to be getting is stonewalling and parroting of the LNER line. This suggests that concerns aren't being taken seriously.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The obvious conclusion is that the Labour government are colluding with it.

Or that the show has been run by the civil servants all along.

 

[yorksrob]

Or that the show has been run by the civil servants all along.

A good minister will keep their civil servants in check.

 

[AdamWW]

Passengers have been crying out for fares reform for a long time. This is simply enactment of those calls.

I think I missed the bit where passengers were crying out for the railway to end fare regulation, increase fares and reduce flexibility while pretending it's all about making life simpler.

 

[wilbers]

...and the other 50% don't, presumably. Not to mention that the Super Off Peak was available in theoretically unlimited quantities (notwithstanding the reservation thing) but these new fares are quota-controlled.

As always, it's what they didn't say that matters.

The other thing it doesn't say is the distribution of them (mean average can be above 50% whilst the median average is below 50%). As it stands its pot luck if its a ticket 90% or 150% of what the super off peak ticket was, and if really unlucky not available at all only leaving the Anytime at eye-watering rate.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed. I'd love to see the hard evidence of what they claim is "widespread availability of cheap seats". What do they view as either widespread or cheap?

Same here, but they are not going to answer (I have asked them; anyone else want to try?)

The government's role is only to set high level policy. They inherited this one. If the industry says that this is the right way forward, and it meets a narrative of dealing with capacity and revenue, it is hard to see why the Labour government would stand in its way.

Passengers have been crying out for fares reform for a long time. This is simply enactment of those calls.

Unfortunately, your track record regarding what you think passengers want speaks for itself; in reality, most passengers who actually travel by train do not want the cost of their fares to go up.

Yes, there is a lot of call for reform and for simplicity, but if you dig deeper, people want more flexibility for the price they currently pay, not for the cost of flexible fares to go up!

Also, a lot of the calls are actually relating to fairer treatment of passengers on the 'wrong ticket', which is actually made far worse under LNER's system.

What LNER are doing is totally uncalled-for, by the vast majority; that it may appeal to you will be of no surprise to regular readers of this forum.

 

[JonathanH]

What LNER are doing is totally uncalled-for, by the vast majority; that it may appeal to you will be of no surprise to regular readers of this forum.

For the avoidance of doubt, it doesn't appeal to me at all.

I imagine it appeals to the rail industry though. It is my opinion that it will eventually extend to all long distance journeys, and that increases by stealth are something the industry can just impose no matter how much people don't like it.

Yes, there is a lot of call for reform

As you have written in other threads, we are better off sticking with what we have in many cases, because the kind of reform the industry wants isn't better for most travellers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other thing it doesn't say is the distribution of them (mean average can be above 50% whilst the median average is below 50%). As it stands its pot luck if its a ticket 90% or 150% of what the super off peak ticket was, and if really unlucky not available at all only leaving the Anytime at eye-watering rate.

What LNER do seem to have managed here is indeed a roughly 150% fare increase compared to the original state when returns still existed. It's quite something that people are still fully supporting them despite this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2024 ==

Also, a lot of the calls are actually relating to fairer treatment of passengers on the 'wrong ticket', which is actually made far worse under LNER's system.

And for instance not having esoteric rules on Advances like getting prosecuted for getting dropped off at a station nearer your destination, one of Northern's specialities. The number of people who would buy a "long" Advance to save money is fairly small, but they seem to consider this more of an issue than being incredibly unfriendly and threatening prosecution (or actually doing it) on people who have done something that "the man on the Clapham omnibus" would see as entirely reasonable.

This could be made a bit less unpalatable if some of these T&Cs were removed. They aren't needed and are particularly passenger unfriendly - they just date from when Advances were small quantities of price dumped bargain tickets, not the default.

 

[Starmill]

This could be made a bit less unpalatable if some of these T&Cs were removed. They aren't needed and are particularly passenger unfriendly - they just date from when Advances were small quantities of price dumped bargain tickets, not the default.

Indeed. I'd be relatively relaxed about the massive price-gouging if fare evasion were decriminalised, the conditions always permitted an early exit, and the fee to amend an Advance were abolished (so changes to any the same price or less price ticket would be done at £0, and more expensive price ticket at only the difference). It would be fine to charge for an early exit at the difference in fares if it were explicitly permitted. It would be fine to keep people on non-refundable tickets if amemds were free up until departure time. However, we'll never get any of that in England, so I can't see why any rational consumer might entertain the current "trial" position as an improvement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. I'd be relatively relaxed about the massive price-gouging if fare evasion were decriminalised, the conditions always permitted an early exit, and the fee to amend an Advance were abolished (so changes to any the same price or less price ticket would be done at £0, and more expensive price ticket at only the difference). It would be fine to charge for an early exit at the difference in fares if it were explicitly permitted. It would be fine to keep people on non-refundable tickets if amemds were free up until departure time. However, we'll never get any of that in England, so I can't see why any rational consumer might entertain the current "trial" position as an improvement.

I must admit I think Lumo's "semi flex" option is a bit better than the 70 minute thing - LumoFlex is refundable and there is no change fee in advance (though ridiculously I think there is one on the day).

 

[MarlowDonkey]

This could be made a bit less unpalatable if some of these T&Cs were removed. They aren't needed and are particularly passenger unfriendly - they just date from when Advances were small quantities of price dumped bargain tickets, not the default.

What would be passenger friendly where frequent services exist would be to dump the restriction to just a single train and make the ticket valid on the train before and train after. Another less hostile approach would be to treat it like first class upgrades. If on the "wrong" train, a modest upgrade fee is payable rather than having the weight of the "travelling without a valid ticket" legislation thrown at the customer.

 

[MrJeeves]

Another less hostile approach would be to treat it like first class upgrades. If on the "wrong" train, a modest upgrade fee is payable rather than having the weight of the "travelling without a valid ticket" legislation thrown at the customer.

I believe this is effectively what LNER do with their "transfer fee" for customers on the wrong service with an Advance, which is priced at half of the Anytime Single.

It's in place to soften the blow so people with now-valueless tickets (e.g., an Advance for a train that has already departed) don't have to fork out £200 as a result.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[Bletchleyite]

What would be passenger friendly where frequent services exist would be to dump the restriction to just a single train and make the ticket valid on the train before and train after.

That's literally what the 70 Minute Flex does, for an extra 20 quid each way.

Another less hostile approach would be to treat it like first class upgrades. If on the "wrong" train, a modest upgrade fee is payable rather than having the weight of the "travelling without a valid ticket" legislation thrown at the customer.

They actually do that, but they aren't publicising it. The "upgrade" fares, issued at guard discretion, are in brfares.com.

A publicised missed-train "rescue fee" would make sense - all the low cost airlines have one.

 

[RailWonderer]

What would be passenger friendly where frequent services exist would be to dump the restriction to just a single train and make the ticket valid on the train before and train after. Another less hostile approach would be to treat it like first class upgrades. If on the "wrong" train, a modest upgrade fee is payable rather than having the weight of the "travelling without a valid ticket" legislation thrown at the customer.

We're not like Europe, penalty fares are a big source of revenue no TOC will want to give up without larger subsidies. LNER has upgrades but most other routes don't.

To me this entire fare hike masked as solely fare simplification shows LNER is allowed to act like a business rather than a state run OLR in order to increase profit to distribute elsewhere on the railway so the same or less subsidy is required. If people are willing to pay, who's to say dynamic pricing doesn't come in later? Airlines do it and people got used to it - not that I'm advocating dynamic pricing, I'm just asking how much more they could get away with on the mid term.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me this entire fare hike masked as solely fare simplification shows LNER is allowed to act like a business rather than a state run OLR in order to increase profit to distribute elsewhere on the railway so the same or less subsidy is required. If people are willing to pay, who's to say dynamic pricing doesn't come in later? Airlines do it and people got used to it - not that I'm advocating dynamic pricing, I'm just asking how much more they could get away with on the mid term.

Removing the Anytime Single on the basis that nobody buys it, thus meaning no cap? Hotel "rack rates" no longer seem to be a thing, and you can see just how much they go up for a big event!

 

[signed]

If people are willing to pay, who's to say dynamic pricing doesn't come in later?

Isn't it already dynamic pricing?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me this entire fare hike masked as solely fare simplification shows LNER is allowed to act like a business rather than a state run OLR in order to increase profit to distribute elsewhere on the railway so the same or less subsidy is required. If people are willing to pay, who's to say dynamic pricing doesn't come in later? Airlines do it and people got used to it - not that I'm advocating dynamic pricing, I'm just asking how much more they could get away with on the mid term.

No different to SNCF really, apart from that (Eurostar Red aside) their fares aren't ridiculous and they have some other quite nice features e.g. various Railcards available to all, including one that makes all tickets fully flexible (which if offered here I'd buy despite it being nearly £400 pa).

The biggest problem here, though, is the fare increases. LNER was already stupidly expensive before the single-fare pricing and this has cranked off peak fares up to around 150% of their previous levels.

If the plan is to equalise them on the WCML (where they're traditionally cheaper), we have doublings to look forward to. Time for a new EV.

 

[Starmill]

I must admit I think Lumo's "semi flex" option is a bit better than the 70 minute thing - LumoFlex is refundable and there is no change fee in advance (though ridiculously I think there is one on the day).

I agree a better middle tier that's refundable completely, or potentially partially even if refunded closer to the time, but free to amend, would also solve the problem. However there's little chance of that because the train companies want to be able to issue non-refundable tickets by default and want to be able to charge fees for any amendment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree a better middle tier that's refundable completely, or potentially partially even if refunded closer to the time, but free to amend, would also solve the problem. However there's little chance of that because the train companies want to be able to issue non-refundable tickets by default and want to be able to charge fees for any amendment.

It is interesting that a fully commercial TOC who are not regulated on fares in any way feel this is a valuable thing to offer, though!

It has been mooted elsewhere on the Forum that other trials are coming over the next couple of years including an Avanti route and a TPE route, possibly with slightly different T&Cs, maybe a different middle tier will be trialled on those?

 

[A S Leib]

e.g. various Railcards available to all, including one that makes all tickets fully flexible (which if offered here I'd buy despite it being nearly £400 pa).

Although I think there's at least one which gives discounts of 25% off TER fares in Hauts-de-France and Grand Est, 30% off in the northwest, 50% off in Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes and none in the rest of the country; I'd rather stick with the uniform 33.4% off we have now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although I think there's at least one which gives discounts of 25% off TER fares in Hauts-de-France and Grand Est, 30% off in the northwest, 50% off in Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes and none in the rest of the country; I'd rather stick with the uniform 33.4% off we have now.

Aside from in the South East I don't - note the importance of "available to all".

Remember also that the Region/Bundesland comparison for the UK is the home nations, i.e. we might have different policies in England, Wales and Scotland, and NI has an entirely separate railway with its own policies that are totally unrelated to those on the mainland.

 

[Starmill]

No different to SNCF really, apart from that (Eurostar Red aside) their fares aren't ridiculous and they have some other quite nice features e.g. various Railcards available to all, including one that makes all tickets fully flexible (which if offered here I'd buy despite it being nearly £400 pa).

The biggest problem here, though, is the fare increases. LNER was already stupidly expensive before the single-fare pricing and this has cranked off peak fares up to around 150% of their previous levels.

If the plan is to equalise them on the WCML (where they're traditionally cheaper), we have doublings to look forward to. Time for a new EV.

Indeed. No reasonable British consumer in 2024 will ever believe that £199.60 is ever a proportionate or reasonable price for London to Edinburgh. The current LNER price structure would be OK if the Anytime Single rates were reduced by 50%, of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. No reasonable British consumer in 2024 will ever believe that £199.60 is ever a proportionate or reasonable price for London to Edinburgh. The current LNER price structure would be OK if the Anytime Single rates were reduced by 50%, of course.

Just wait when they see that Euston to Manchester is almost the same price despite being half the distance! The risk of silly fares is thus far greater on the WCML.

I could cope with reducing that Anytime to about £130 and Euston-Manchester to about £80, though. Indeed reducing the Manchester one was part of Avanti's plans pre COVID, though I don't know what to, probably not quite that low.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

That's literally what the 70 Minute Flex does, for an extra 20 quid each way.

Reword the conditions for Advance fares to apply 70 Minute Flex rules to all of them. Or would that be far too customer friendly?

In their present form buying an Advance where the first leg of a journey is by road and thus outside the scope of rail related delays just feels too much at risk of forfeiting the whole ticket price.

 

[JonathanH]

If people are willing to pay, who's to say dynamic pricing doesn't come in later? Airlines do it and people got used to it - not that I'm advocating dynamic pricing, I'm just asking how much more they could get away with on the mid term

Is £200 a reasonable price for a Travelodge room in Central Edinburgh on a Saturday night? It would be fair to say that it probably isn't but the last few rooms will be that price or more. In a way the railway is seeking to get its 'fair share' of the cost of the ever increasing cost of a weekend away.