Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

[Trainbike46]

I'm still waiting for some actual evidence that this move is intended to be revenue neutral.

I think we have quite strong evidence that it isn't intended to be revenue neutral

 

[Bikeman78]

Compulsory reservations are a absolutely necessary, and I can see a time in the very near future where they are actually enforced, (this is already happening at certain times, especially Lumo).

As long as they're available and easily accessible right up to departure, I'm not sure there's really a case against them. You can currently make free reservations online and with several apps.

This doesn't apply to every route though. I can nearly always get a seat between London and Cardiff. If the train is genuinely full, I'd rather stand to Reading and take a seat there than wait half an hour. I'm certainly not the only person that does this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2024 ==

And every time I use the ECML I’m very glad of my reservation as it’s full and standing out of King’s Cross.

Which is absolutely fine. But you have a seat, so why do you care if someone else has to stand? Would you rather they drove or took a coach instead?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2024 ==

These people need to quickly learn that the railway cannot be compared to an airline.

They need to learn that the competition is the car. As I mentioned upthread, my car is ready to leave at any time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2024 ==

So from now on : cracked screen? New ticket. If I'm going to get abuse for offering well meant guidance, I may as well get the same abuse for doing my job to the letter.

Another reason why I will stick to orange cardboard until the bitter end. I shattered my phone screen recently. It was still perfectly usable for several weeks so I wouldn't be happy if railway ticket scanning equipment thought otherwise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2024 ==

Yes it serves Birmingham to Coventry, but local customers really shouldn't be on that sort of intercity service, same with Wolverhampton to Birmingham.

Why not? People from Euston get off at Coventry. Why shouldn't different people use those seats rom Coventry to New Street? The local stoppers will be filled with people getting on at the intermediate stations.

 

[A S Leib]

Another reason why I will stick to orange cardboard until the bitter end. I shattered my phone screen recently. It was still perfectly usable for several weeks so I wouldn't be happy if railway ticket scanning equipment thought otherwise.

Although in most cases e-Tickets and printing them off as a contingency is an option as well.

 

[Bikeman78]

Although in most cases e-Tickets and printing them off as a contingency is an option as well.

Yes, that is true, but not foolproof either. The last two times I flew with BA, they couldn't scan the tickets that my poor quality inkjet printer had produced. They didn't make it my problem though. They simply printed out some new ones.

I'm actually surprised that not being able to scan a ticket makes it invalid. So long as you can read the words and the date, what's the problem? Especially with advances. They can't be used again, so minimal fraud potential.

 

[Hadders]

Moderator Note - can we stay on topic please. This isn’t the place to discuss the merits of paper tickets v e-tickets.

 

[Krokodil]

I'm actually surprised that not being able to scan a ticket makes it invalid. So long as you can read the words and the date, what's the problem? Especially with advances. They can't be used again, so minimal fraud potential.

They may attempt to refund an unscanned ticket (or may already have done so). Ticket reuse is also a big problem, as are multiple people trying to use the same ticket. If you don't scan it, you won't catch it, particularly as I don't go through a train writing down every UTN that I've seen to check for reuse.

 

[A S Leib]

If you have a 70-minute ticket with PlusBus and try to get a train an hour after your booked one but miss it due to bus delays, how likely would permission to travel on the next train without an excess fare be?

 

[MrJeeves]

If you have a 70-minute ticket with PlusBus and try to get a train an hour after your booked one but miss it due to bus delays, how likely would permission to travel on the next train without an excess fare be?

PlusBus gives you no additional rights with regards to delays outside of National Rail, just like you would have no protection if you bought a normal bus ticket to connect you with your rail service.

You'd rely entirely on goodwill.

 

[Haywain]

So long as you can read the words and the date, what's the problem?

There's a significant problem with those details being altered, which can be detected because the original barcode is still used.

 

[stevieinselby]

I have to take issue with this. I wouldn't say there's just one obvious route on a long distance journey.

What's the obvious route from Stevenage to Manchester, or York to Bristol, or Edinburgh to Birmingham. I could go on.....

Manchester is about the 50th most popular destination from Stevenage, accounting for less than 0.2% of journeys.
There are only a couple of stations above it that don't have direct services (Nottingham and Stratford).
Sure, we can all think up examples of station pairs that don't have a single obvious route between them, but they will usually be very low passenger flows compared to the journeys that do have unambiguous obvious routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2024 ==

I would love to see a modern app which behaves like MixingDeck - letting you choose a fare first before showing the itineraries valid on that fare, without forcing a journey planner.

Was that the old LNER (or some previous incarnation of it) system? If so, that was far and away the best online option for buying tickets. Are there any sites still offering it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2024 ==

What is so radically different about the UK, say a fast LNER London-Edinburgh versus a Trenitalia service from Rome to Milan?

If your argument is that some (but by no means all) UK InterCity services service comparatively small local markets, this happens all over the world too, complete with compulsory reservations, often at a cost. However, even if you consider that is an issue, there's plenty of intercity services where that is not an issue, particularly Birmingham-Coventry-Euston for example.

Yes it serves Birmingham to Coventry, but local customers really shouldn't be on that sort of intercity service, same with Wolverhampton to Birmingham.

There are plenty of places on the UK rail network where intercity services do provide the only local service.
Even where there is a parallel local service, it often won't have the frequency or the capacity to operate as the sole service for short/medium distance passengers, such as on the Wolverhampton–Birmingham–Coventry axis.
And then you get the question about how you police boarding restrictions on intercity trains in that situation.
Because so much of our intercity network functions as a jack-of-all-trades, it is difficult to separate out intercity and local functions.

 

[miklcct]

Sure, we can all think up examples of station pairs that don't have a single obvious route between them, but they will usually be very low passenger flows compared to the journeys that do have unambiguous obvious routes.

Do you think that Cambridge - London (2 obvious routes) has very low passenger flows?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Chathill and Berwick?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Was that the old LNER (or some previous incarnation of it) system? If so, that was far and away the best online option for buying tickets. Are there any sites still offering it?

Worldline WebTIS is still used by Great Western, South Western, Transpennine and Worldline's own site RedSpottedHanky.

It's also used for Rail Staff Travel's web booking site, use of which is mandatory for holders of RST Online Leisure Cards.

 

[takno]

Do you think that Cambridge - London (2 obvious routes) has very low passenger flows?

Do you think it's a particular problem if passengers are able to pick and choose between those? They are easily covered by a set of generic rules like "if there's a direct train you can take it. If there's a schedule that way which is the fastest schedule you can take it. If the journey involves the same or fewer changes than the fastest journey you can take it".

 

[miklcct]

Do you think it's a particular problem if passengers are able to pick and choose between those? They are easily covered by a set of generic rules like "if there's a direct train you can take it. If there's a schedule that way which is the fastest schedule you can take it. If the journey involves the same or fewer changes than the fastest journey you can take it".

What if they have different fares? My opinion is that all fares should be routed definitely that you are never allowed to deviate from the route, which is a necessity for all mileage-based fare systems.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Rome to Milan can be eye wateringly expensive, for example.
Even where InterCity fares are "cheaper" abroad, mostly this is achieved by huge subsidies and increased tax takes - so you are paying, just in a different way.
It's €102 for a one way standard class single fare if I want to go from Rome to Milan on the 19:40 today. Add another €2 if you want a seat picker option.

Italo wants €85 for the same trip (no Advance-type fares available, which could be as low as €30).
TI has 2tph most of the day, Italo typically 1tph (same route, sometimes different stops, different trains and onboard service).
Milan-Rome is 568km in 3h10 or 179km/h.
London-Edinburgh is 632km in 4h20 or 146km/h.

Both TI and Italo will sell you executive fares (super-first essentially) for €295, which is definitely eye-watering.
Plenty of capacity on the Italian high speed lines.
ITA (ex-Alitalia) wants roughly the same (€88-119) as TI/Italo for the same economy trip tonight LIN-FCO.

Italy is of course benefitting from its massive state high-speed investment, we are not.
SNCF plans to join TI and Italo on the route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both TI and Italo will sell you executive fares (super-first essentially) for €295, which is definitely eye-watering.

It is, but it's also superb quality. Aside from the pretty mediocre free grub, UK first class is more like the "middle class" on those two operators, which is fairly affordable. There may be no market for that in the UK to be fair, I think Italian businesses are more traditional and are often willing to fund that sort of thing.

 

[stevieinselby]

What if they have different fares? My opinion is that all fares should be routed definitely that you are never allowed to deviate from the route, which is a necessity for all mileage-based fare systems.

Why do you hate passengers?

If I buy an open ticket from A to B, I want to (at least have the option to) have flexibility to travel on any reasonable route, depending on what works best at the time I end up travelling. As an absolute minimum, you should have a rule that says if there is an alternative route from A to B that has a cheaper fare then your ticket is automatically valid on that route.

(I realise that is not how it works now with Orcats, but it doesn't need to because we have the Any Permitted fare that covers all bases)

 

[Trainbike46]

Manchester is about the 50th most popular destination from Stevenage, accounting for less than 0.2% of journeys.
There are only a couple of stations above it that don't have direct services (Nottingham and Stratford).
Sure, we can all think up examples of station pairs that don't have a single obvious route between them, but they will usually be very low passenger flows compared to the journeys that do have unambiguous obvious routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2024 ==

The ticketing system needs to be able to handle all ticketing flows in some manner. And 50th isn't actually that low, there's around 2579 stations in GB. the 50th most common flow will still be a significant number of passengers, 0.2% of about 4 million entries and exits at Stevenage is still around 8,000 passenger journeys per year.

Clearly the fare system needs to work for commonly made journeys, but it should also work for less frequently made ones!

 

[miklcct]

Why do you hate passengers?

If I buy an open ticket from A to B, I want to (at least have the option to) have flexibility to travel on any reasonable route, depending on what works best at the time I end up travelling. As an absolute minimum, you should have a rule that says if there is an alternative route from A to B that has a cheaper fare then your ticket is automatically valid on that route.

(I realise that is not how it works now with Orcats, but it doesn't need to because we have the Any Permitted fare that covers all bases)

The only way routing can work without any disputes is that:
1. Any routes are permitted (this is how the PAYG system in London works)
2. Only a single route is permitted (this is how some mileage-based pricing in other countries works)

Otherwise, people can always get creative in routing. If you allow the use of the "fastest" route on an open ticket, what does it exactly means? Disruption, or even quirks in the timetable, can change the meaning of "fastest" and open up a large number of loopholes.

If we choose option 1, in order to avoid misusing tickets, we will need some form of ticket validatiom and time limits. That's only feasible in a network-wide PAYG system.
If we choose option 2, and you are buying a walk-up ticket, you should buy it just before travel when you have already decided which route you want to use for the journey.

 

[Hadders]

This thread is to discuss the LNER Simpler Fares trial and recent discussion on general fares reform is starting to become off-topic.

Can we keep discussion in this thread to the LNER trial, if anyone wants to have a more general discussion on rail fares reform then please feel free to start a new thread in the appropriate section.

Thanks.

 

[bakerstreet]

Evening Standard opinion editorial on this from this week (Thursday 28/8). Includes an honourable mention for TrainSplit (my bold)

Train fares are sky-high — it's time for the Government to step in

It’s a funny old time to be a commuter right now — especially one who relies on trains to get from A to B. On the one hand, the strikes have slowed down. It’s early days, but I’m cautiously optimistic — if only because I cannot bear to catch a bus to Gatwick again. That two-hour journey via...

www.standard.co.uk

It’s a funny old time to be a commuter right now — especially one who relies on trains to get from A to B. On the one hand, the strikes have slowed down. It’s early days, but I’m cautiously optimistic — if only because I cannot bear to catch a bus to Gatwick again. That two-hour journey via Heathrow still crops up in my nightmares from time to time.
On the other, is it just me or do the fares keep going up and up? Last week, it was announced that LNER was discontinuing off-peak fares on its longer-distance routes in favour of something it introduced in January called “semi-flexible” fares — essentially a 70-minute window of time in which a customer can catch a train to their intended destination.

These changes come into effect from October 1, but the chatter on train social media is dire. For those who don’t speak train (like myself), this means customers face paying more for less flexibility. Or, of course, paying £270 for a London-Edinburgh anytime return. And while this is only an LNER thing currently, don’t be surprised if other train companies follow suit.

But what’s new? For a country that professes to have a cutting-edge transport network, Britain is good at giving the least bang for the most buck. And while I remember thinking trains were expensive in my uni days, it’s now 10 years on and I’m still struggling to afford ticket prices on a full-time salary. Like many others, I rely heavily on workaround sites like Trainsplit and Split Ticketing to find the best fares. But with companies like LNER increasingly closing the travel loopholes that they exploit, the prices on these sites keep going up and up

Let’s talk about the 26-30 railcard. In 2019, we cheered as it was launched, with much fanfare. While it’s certainly done its part in cutting down fares (probably to something approximating what they should cost), there’s a catch. My friends are turning 30 and face the having to pay full price for train journeys that often end up delayed, cancelled or (yes) held up due to strikes. Given that salaries haven’t gone up with inflation, that’s something most are dreading.

I hate to be that person, but perhaps it’s time for somebody to step in. And by somebody, I mean the Government. Labour wants to be the party of change? Start by changing the way we travel.

Vicky Jessop is a commissioning editor and culture writer at the Evening Standard

 

[Starmill]

The truth is that passengers want Anytime/Any Permitted tickets at Advance prices.

I imagine what people really want is something rather cheaper than the marginal cost of using a car for the same journey. Who could blame them too, given by definition a car doesn't come with any of these weird rules we apparently are obligated to put up with?

 

[Haywain]

I imagine what people really want is something rather cheaper than the marginal cost of using a car for the same journey. Who could blame them too, given by definition a car doesn't come with any of these weird rules we apparently are obligated to put up with?

When people are saying they can do 200 mile trips for around a fiver in their electric car, there is zero chance of that happening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When people are saying they can do 200 mile trips for around a fiver in their electric car, there is zero chance of that happening.

Until road pricing it's going to be impossible to compete with EVs, but when it's cheaper to drive a Range Rover on your own on many rail journeys (which it very much is on any long distance journey where Anytime fares apply) you just know the situation is a mess.

Going a bit elsewhere, perhaps someone should point out to the Government that their actions are looking more than a little bit like Ticketmaster's over the Oasis dynamic pricing controversy? Not a good look.

 

[yorksrob]

Until road pricing it's going to be impossible to compete with EVs, but when it's cheaper to drive a Range Rover on your own on many rail journeys (which it very much is on any long distance journey where Anytime fares apply) you just know the situation is a mess.

Going a bit elsewhere, perhaps someone should point out to the Government that their actions are looking more than a little bit like Ticketmaster's over the Oasis dynamic pricing controversy? Not a good look.

Indeed. They'll have to pay for the roads somehow, so when every car's electric the price will have to go up.

 

[BRX]

I have been on to my [Labour] MP about the LNER trial.

Their initial reply suggested that they didn't really understand exactly what the problem was, even though I tried to set it out as clearly as possible.

They did however, forward my concerns on to LNER, and a reply came back from their PR department saying much the same things that we've all seen claimed since the beginning. I tried to counter all of these but don't know if my reply actually went anywhere and was probably futile.

I did say to my MP that I wasn't really interested in what LNER had to say, and that my aim was more to trying and make sure that those in the new government (who may be involved in future decision making) actually get the arguments against the kind of system that's been trialled.

So, my concerns were forwarded on to the Minister of State for Rail (or some admin person in that office) and here is an extract from the reply. Unfortunately it really just parrots what LNER say in their own propaganda... and doesn't address any of my specific points. Whether there's any point in my pursuing things any further I don't know.

As you are aware, LNER is currently selling tickets that are priced in
accordance with its two year “Simpler Fares” Pilot. This pilot involves
removing the old off-peak fares, which lead to some very quiet “peak” and
very busy “off-peak” services. Simpler Fares aims to smooth out demand and
reduce crowding, making travel more comfortable for passengers.
I understand that removing the old-style super off-peak ticket may affect
passengers who need to purchase tickets at short notice. This is why the
Department has worked with LNER to ensure the widespread availability of
cheap seats. LNER has made more fixed (formerly advance) fares available
than before, which can be purchased up until five minutes before departure,
although these may be sold out on busy services. Passengers can also
purchase additional flexibility alongside this by upgrading to a semi-flexible
ticket if they need to.
As of 3 June 2024, around 50 per cent of new semi-flexible fares purchased
in standard class cost less than the former super off-peak price it replaced.
LNER has published further assurances about the cost and availability of
fixed and semi-flexible fares on its website. These will be kept under review
as the trial progresses, and the results of this pilot will be carefully considered
before taking any further decisions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The thing I struggle with is why nobody can see that LNER is lying through its corporate teeth. It even took a while of arguing to get the likes of The Man In Seat 61 and Simon Calder to get it.

 

[Starmill]

I have been on to my [Labour] MP about the LNER trial.

Their initial reply suggested that they didn't really understand exactly what the problem was, even though I tried to set it out as clearly as possible.

They did however, forward my concerns on to LNER, and a reply came back from their PR department saying much the same things that we've all seen claimed since the beginning. I tried to counter all of these but don't know if my reply actually went anywhere and was probably futile.

I did say to my MP that I wasn't really interested in what LNER had to say, and that my aim was more to trying and make sure that those in the new government (who may be involved in future decision making) actually get the arguments against the kind of system that's been trialled.

So, my concerns were forwarded on to the Minister of State for Rail (or some admin person in that office) and here is an extract from the reply. Unfortunately it really just parrots what LNER say in their own propaganda... and doesn't address any of my specific points. Whether there's any point in my pursuing things any further I don't know.

It's frustrating because if they just said "we know no rational consumer will be interested in paying more for the same thing, but we've been told we're obligated to raise more through ticket sales and take less in public subsidy and this is the fairest way to achieve that" I think everyone would have a lot more respect for it. Sure, we wouldn't like it more and still many many people would disagree. Many people would argue that the company is bloated, badly managed, and is vastly wasteful of the enormous public subsidy it gets. However we'd at least have some basic respect for being told the truth. It's always the being lied to that stings more than the cheating.

 

[Haywain]

Many people would argue that the company is bloated, badly managed, and is vastly wasteful of the enormous public subsidy it gets.

As a profitable operation the subdidy is pretty much non-existent.