Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[jfollows]

Why are people only now saying that railcard discounts either can’t be done or are too hard? Surely this was one of the parts of the project that was sold to us at the start? Or were the project requirements not properly understood and scoped? If this thread’s title is accurate, then it seems they were not.

 

[stuu]

I think the only way they could implement the railcard discounts is either by using oyster or a successor to oyster using the same technology. Railcard discounts are too problematic on contactless. Even if there was a way of tokenising each debit card , as people can loan their debit cards to someone one else.

I would have thought far more people would be willing to share an oyster card than their own debit card!

Ideally, you would need to set up an account like the current TfL setup, and add the Railcard to that. If the systems were set up sensibly, it should be possible to directly link into the Railcard system so that the validity could be checked when the payment is taken

 

[DMckduck]

I would have thought far more people would be willing to share an oyster card than their own debit card!

Ideally, you would need to set up an account like the current TfL setup, and add the Railcard to that. If the systems were set up sensibly, it should be possible to directly link into the Railcard system so that the validity could be checked when the payment is taken

I think the issue more lies in the inspection of said debit/credit card.

Contactless can't be inspected as thoroughly as oyster cards currently and I doubt that will ever change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the issue more lies in the inspection of said debit/credit card.

Contactless can't be inspected as thoroughly as oyster cards currently and I doubt that will ever change.

It will. Oyster is to switch to a back office system with "dumb" cards, and when it does the two will be functionally identical.

 

[Recessio]

Oyster remains the property of tfl The terms and conditions forbid loaning it to other people if it has a railcard discount on it. The debit/Credit card cannot be withdrawn and cannot have conditions attached that prevent it being used by other people because TfL or another transport authority do not own it. Indeed if a revenue inspector tried to withdraw a debit card they could be prosecuted for theft

Nothing to stop them blocking the debit card from use on TfL.

It will. Oyster is to switch to a back office system with "dumb" cards, and when it does the two will be functionally identical.

Will this allow them to upgrade the system to expand the oyster area to match contactless , or will they still be limited by old oyster cards still in circulation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will this allow them to upgrade the system to expand the oyster area to match contactless

Yes.

or will they still be limited by old oyster cards still in circulation?

I'm not clear about what is intended to happen with existing cards, but there are basically two options - replace them, or have the new kit recognise them as a dumb card and process in the back office anyway, ignoring what's actually on the card.

 

[stuu]

I think the issue more lies in the inspection of said debit/credit card.

Contactless can't be inspected as thoroughly as oyster cards currently and I doubt that will ever change.

Why does that matter? The discount would be applied when the payment is taken, overnight, and would only happen if there was a valid registered Railcard in the same name. If the DfT has been logical they would have insisted that the system being rolled out could talk directly to the Railcard back office system

 

[Jammy Dodger]

I'm not clear about what is intended to happen with existing cards, but there are basically two options - replace them, or have the new kit recognise them as a dumb card and process in the back office anyway, ignoring what's actually on the card.

Will this allow them to upgrade the system to expand the oyster area to match contactless , or will they still be limited by old oyster cards still in circulation?

One option - if Oyster is treated as a dumb card, and all payments are calculated back of house (which I believe TfL is planning on doing to exceed the current 4-bit system constraint, based on comments made somewhere on this forum), then surely Oyster validity could be expanded to the contactless validity area, and use it for railcard discounts only, saving the need to develop integration with bank cards?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==

Why does that matter? The discount would be applied when the payment is taken, overnight, and would only happen if there was a valid registered Railcard in the same name. If the DfT has been logical they would have insisted that the system being rolled out could talk directly to the Railcard back office system

That's what I was thinking - overnight, take all journeys done on the previous day, calculate the full fare in the same way for everyone, then apply the relevant railcard discount (if applicable) that is linked to the Oyster card/bank card/account to the final total.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==

I'm not clear about what is intended to happen with existing cards, but there are basically two options - replace them, or have the new kit recognise them as a dumb card and process in the back office anyway, ignoring what's actually on the card.

Do you (or anyone on the forum for that matter) know if there is any technical reason/restriction to allow dumb Oyster usage in the contactless zone? Hypothetically, we could then (eventually) have a system where Oyster could operate in a similar way (across the NR network) as the Dutch OV-chipkaart...?

 

[swt_passenger]

How do you make the railcards work that require more than one person, or children, eg Two Together and Friends and Family? The Network card is usable by one person, but its ability to be applied to up to 3 other random adults and up to 4 children seems a bit difficult to set up…

 

[yorkie]

How do you make the railcards work that require more than one person, or children, eg Two Together and Friends and Family? The Network card is usable by one person, but its ability to be applied to up to 3 other random adults and up to 4 children seems a bit difficult to set up…

Those Railcards have never applied to Oyster; is there some suggestion they will work with Contactless through Project Oval? I've not heard anything...

 

[swt_passenger]

Those Railcards have never applied to Oyster; is there some suggestion they will work with Oval? I've not heard anything...

I think quite a few posts seem to use the word “railcards” collectively, as though they are all in scope, but I thought it was still worth noting some were far more complex than others, the inference being they can’t easily work. Although The Network card can be used by an individual it has the weekday minimum fare problem as well, but I’d assume that could still be worked out on the back office processes if they wanted.

 

[wildcard]

How do you make the railcards work that require more than one person, or children, eg Two Together and Friends and Family? The Network card is usable by one person, but its ability to be applied to up to 3 other random adults and up to 4 children seems a bit difficult to set up…

One way is maybe to make these multi-traveller discounts claimable after the event. Once you have your Two Together/ F &F - you nominate a suite of Oyster / contactless card users to be your posse - with their names and card number ( or unique registration ID ) linked to your Together/F&F - which can be edited by you on line . I guess this would mean all potential members of your group would have to register their various cards in advance - and supply you with some sort of registration ID . Once your journey is complete you submit a claim on line highlighting those people/cards you travelled with you . TfL etc then validate - same tap in location , same tap-out location - tap-in times say no more than 10 mins apart between first and last member of the party.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Although The Network card can be used by an individual it has the weekday minimum fare problem as well, but I’d assume that could still be worked out on the back office processes if they wanted.

It's not just the Network railcard with a minimum fare, the 16-25 railcard, among MANY others, also have a minimum.

 

[Vexed]

And the senior railcard doesn't have a specific time for it's London area restrictions as it's based on the Off Peak ticket time for that journey!

Actually I've just thought that oval makes off peak start at 0930 so I guess that's not actually an issue. And in the zones TfL gives free travel from 0900 with the Freedom Pass.

 

[Hadders]

Railcards loaded onto Oyster cards already work very differently to traditional railcard discounted tickets. For example, Gold Card loaded to an Oyster card gives discount on off-peak travel i.e. pre 06:30 which is something not available if you buy a traditional ticket. Conversely, in the afternoon when peak fares apply, there's no discount with a Gold Card loaded to an Oyster card but you can get a discount with a Gold Card discounted traditional ticket.

 

[Haywain]

It's not just the Network railcard with a minimum fare, the 16-25 railcard, among MANY others, also have a minimum.

I doubt the minimum fare is applied on Oyster.

 

[SWT_USER]

How do you make the railcards work that require more than one person, or children, eg Two Together and Friends and Family? The Network card is usable by one person, but its ability to be applied to up to 3 other random adults and up to 4 children seems a bit difficult to set up…

Don't those same benefits apply to the Gold card discount (apart from the minimum fare), which can be added to and Oyster card? I don't see what it's an issue specifically for the Network card.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't those same benefits apply to the Gold card discount (apart from the minimum fare), which can be added to and Oyster card?

Yes.

I don't see what it's an issue specifically for the Network card.

It's not (unlike say the Family card). The answer is just to keep it simple - if using contactless you can only get a discount for yourself, others would need to use a paper ticket. I'd expect that's the same as it is now for Gold Card?

Oval paper tickets are not punitively priced unlike the Tube so this shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Trainbike46]

Why are people only now saying that railcard discounts either can’t be done or are too hard? Surely this was one of the parts of the project that was sold to us at the start? Or were the project requirements not properly understood and scoped? If this thread’s title is accurate, then it seems they were not.

people are saying railcard discounts on CONTACLESS are too hard. However, it's eminently possible on a replacement for oyster using cards issued by TfL that use either the same back-office as contactless or a new backoffice. AIUI, the project did in fact include an idea to introduce something to that effect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2024 ==

It's not just the Network railcard with a minimum fare, the 16-25 railcard, among MANY others, also have a minimum.

I doubt the minimum fare is applied on Oyster.

It is not - on oyster the 16-25 railcard doesn't offer a discount at all during peak times instead. However the caps are discounted

 

[SynthD]

Do you think it's a requirement to check railcards in the field? It sounds like it's no additional work to handle single-person railcards, even with different hours of activation, in the end of day calculation. But if they want revenue protection staff to know if they need to ask for a railcard, that requires extra engineering.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

And the senior railcard doesn't have a specific time for it's London area restrictions as it's based on the Off Peak ticket time for that journey!

Actually I've just thought that oval makes off peak start at 0930 so I guess that's not actually an issue. And in the zones TfL gives free travel from 0900 with the Freedom Pass.

Freedom cards are only valid after 0900 on tfl services. Most national rail services such as SWR are only valid after 0930. There are a couple of exceptions.

 

[Haywain]

And the senior railcard doesn't have a specific time for it's London area restrictions as it's based on the Off Peak ticket time for that journey!

Actually I've just thought that oval makes off peak start at 0930 so I guess that's not actually an issue.

It's an issue where the railcard can currently be used before 0930.

 

[JonathanH]

It's an issue where the railcard can currently be used before 0930.

Is it actually an issue, or just a fare increase? Project Oval includes the standardisation of off-peak fares with a 0930 departure, so that is the time the Senior Railcard becomes available for paper tickets as well on the relevant flows.

It is standardisation.

 

[Richardr]

One way is maybe to make these multi-traveller discounts claimable after the event. Once you have your Two Together/ F &F - you nominate a suite of Oyster / contactless card users to be your posse - with their names and card number ( or unique registration ID ) linked to your Together/F&F - which can be edited by you on line . I guess this would mean all potential members of your group would have to register their various cards in advance - and supply you with some sort of registration ID . Once your journey is complete you submit a claim on line highlighting those people/cards you travelled with you . TfL etc then validate - same tap in location , same tap-out location - tap-in times say no more than 10 mins apart between first and last member of the party.

Not the simplification that contactless is marketed as.

 

[Haywain]

Is it actually an issue, or just a fare increase? Project Oval includes the standardisation of off-peak fares with a 0930 departure, so that is the time the Senior Railcard becomes available for paper tickets as well on the relevant flows.

It is standardisation.

Yes, it's an issue if it means later travel or considerably higher fares. Coupled with peak fares in the afternoon it can make a significant difference. Especially if it's added to the loss of Super Off Peak fares.

 

[DMckduck]

Contactless coming soon posters been removed from my local station? I would have thought more publicity would be a better approach?

 

[Skimble19]

Contactless coming soon posters been removed from my local station? I would have thought more publicity would be a better approach?

There’s been a somewhat last minute delay to the launch due to the cyber attack on TfL. Suspect the posters have been removed as they had the date on them.

 

[jackdoyle]

Confirmation:
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/westm...contactless-technology-to-14-stations-3342420

The technology had been due to go live from Sunday 22 September but will now be delayed following suspicious cyber activity which has been reported against Transport for London (TfL) systems. TfL has taken a number of security measures in response to the suspicious activity. These measures mean it is no longer possible for TfL to deliver the necessary system changes to enable Pay As You Go with Contactless to go live at 47 new stations – including the 14 operated by LNR - on September 22 as planned.

LNR is working with TfL and the wider rail industry to reschedule the launch and further information will be provided in due course.

 

[Joe Paxton]

There’s been a somewhat last minute delay to the launch due to the cyber attack on TfL. Suspect the posters have been removed as they had the date on them.

Not a huge surprise, given the circumstances. Far from ideal of course.

The TfL cyber attack is being discussed on this other RUKF thread:
TfL Cyber Security Incident

Also, TfL has a page with the latest infoirmation on this incident.

It appears that the core contactless & Oyster system hasn't been compromised - I'd expect this to be very well protected.

 

[londonbridge]

It appears that the core contactless & Oyster system hasn't been compromised - I'd expect this to be very well protected.

How do you equate that statement with TfL stating that “some Oyster card refund data may have been accessed”, which is where potentially upto 5000 bank account numbers and sort codes may have been leaked from?